Post-Game Talk: TSN Tipping Point

[nturn06]

I don't really remember Yamo and RNH doing much of anything without Drai being heavily involved last year.

Yea, RHN, Kahun, no difference.

 

[Beerfish]

Yea, I bet that if Holland would had traded for Allen before the FA, for that type of money, you would had praised him [/sarcasm]

Anyone and I mean anyone defending Ken Holland over his handling of our tending situation is 100% out to lunch.

The 'starter' is lousy.
His backup was pure awful and was then inexplicably resigned.
He went out and got a 3rd stringer and then proceeded to get cute, letting him get claimed and putting us in dire straights.

You could not botch up goaltending worse if you tried.

 

[Stoneman89]

Needs to be remembered that due to our egregious lack of forward depth Kahun probably playing too far up and without out a consistent 2nd on that line. Kahun can be a good 3rd. But the Drai line needs some help, and while there are no scoring plays happening between Drai and Kahun, there are none directly between Drai and Yama either. Drai has no difficulty lifting one player, he has trouble lifting two. Leon has 2 upstarts in his line any day and is facing teams with 3 solid players on a first or 2nd line, like the Jets last night. Despite this Leon and his line are sporting the best metrics on the club, are allowing hardly any GA, but the line itself is not producing much of anything. The pts are coming either on PP or when line changes are occurring.

try to look for the last scoring play that was directly either Drai to Yama, or Yama to Drai. I can't even find when an instance of such a scoring play last happened.

From an offense pov we're completely wasting Drai on that line. He's placeholding shutdown while setting his linemates up multiple times a day and without them cashing. In a Boston or Colorado type top config Leon would have 15 pts..

Yah, Leon's been good, but I'm not buying the narrative (again from you) that he's doing it all by his lonesome. Yamo has been doing well this year, not lighting it up like last year, but a lot of that is not having Nuge on the line. The chemistry between the 3 of them was amazing.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Fixing the bottom 6 is definitely more likely though. Fixing the defense isn't going to happen in season.

Yeah I know. Unfortunate but very true. Only hoping someone like Bouchard could come in and help stabilize the back end. Stauffer mentioned 7 D today and I honestly think that is the best route to take as of now. I thought Barrie could actually play but the guy isn't doing anything. I hope he is just off to a slow start

 

[Stoneman89]

Yea, RHN, Kahun, no difference.

Rubbish. Nuge's 5 X 5 points went way up when that line was put together, and Yamo was almost point/game. Kahun is doing absolutely zilch on it this year. If he at least getting some solid looks every game, I could chalk it up as waiting for him to break through and the shooting % to even out, but that's not happening.

 

[harpoon]

KOSKINEN IS AN AVERAGE NHL STARTER. Plainly put. Done finito. Period. He isn't awful and does not give up a crazy amount of rebounds as you may have suggested.

Solid post. It’s a head scratcher to see people who have watched hockey all their lives come on here and act like Koskinen has been the team’s biggest problem. This club gives up freebies in the slot like no other team I have ever watched. Koskinen is no world beater, but naming him as the culprit for the team performance thus far is well off base.

 

[nturn06]

Anyone and I mean anyone defending Ken Holland over his handling of our tending situation is 100% out to lunch.

The 'starter' is lousy.
His backup was pure awful and was then inexplicably resigned.
He went out and got a 3rd stringer and then proceeded to get cute, letting him get claimed and putting us in dire straights.

You could not botch up goaltending worse if you tried.

It is very easy to say, after seeing the UFA situation, that Holland should had done this or that. Anyhow, can you tell me what would have happened if Holland traded for Allen, as suggested, and then Holtby signed for less money in FA? Because I know exactly what our fans' reaction and your reaction would had been.

Also, anyone complaining about the Goalie situation has to realize that Koski was gifted to Holland by Pete, other than a buyout we are stuck with him. As for a high paid backup, that money and much more are tied in Pouliot, Sekera and Neil/Lucic.

Yes, I agree that our goalie situation is far from optimal, and that's why Holland went after Markstrom and probably Holtby. One of them may have improved our goalie situation, or maybe not. Are you guys really blaming him for trying to land one of those guys over Jake Allen?
And the reality is that Goalie is NOT our biggest issue, spending about 9 mils on Koski+Allen is not the answer...

Anyhow, I am curious if you'll answer the bolded question.

 

[Stoneman89]

Anyone and I mean anyone defending Ken Holland over his handling of our tending situation is 100% out to lunch.

The 'starter' is lousy.
His backup was pure awful and was then inexplicably resigned.
He went out and got a 3rd stringer and then proceeded to get cute, letting him get claimed and putting us in dire straights.

You could not botch up goaltending worse if you tried.

Not disagreeing with any of that, but the whole issue goes back to Chia inexplicably giving Koskinen that 1B starter money to o Koskinen on a multi-year deal. If that doesn't happen,then we have money to go out and get a solid starter, and we're not into this band-aid mess.

 

[nturn06]

Rubbish. Nuge's 5 X 5 points went way up when that line was put together, and Yamo was almost point/game. Kahun is doing absolutely zilch on it this year. If he at least getting some solid looks every game, I could chalk it up as waiting for him to break through and the shooting % to even out, but that's not happening.

That was sarcasm

 

[nabob]

The last thing this team needed this year was a 1B goalie making 4.35 mils.

Especially one that isn’t any better than our starter. It’s just adding cap for no gain in the standings.

 

[harpoon]

Kassian was having a real strong game. He was energized, moving really well and making smart plays. Tippett sees this and moves him up to McD line. I understand, some coaches like to play poker and see a player who's really feeling it that night and roll the dice hoping he'll be the game changer. But he lost the bet. There was no reason to do this, both lines were rolling well. He was impatient that they weren't cashing in on their chances. But both lines looked good and I felt it was just a matter of time before either line would have scored. They were really gelling. It looks to me like Kassian and Neal like playing together, Neal is a real character and I bet he is lighting a fire under Kassian. That 3rd line played a solid game, I can definitely see chemistry there

My thoughts exactly. Tippet needs to stop putting Kassian on the top line. Just give it up already. I only watched part of the second period yesterday, but Kassian and Neal were dominating. They seem like a natural fit. Leave those two together for a few games and see what develops. At worst they are at least a threat to score which this club sorely needs from its third line.

 

[Draiskull]

I don't really remember Yamo and RNH doing much of anything without Drai being heavily involved last year.

And when was that? Yamamoto was always on Draisaitl's line.
When Nuge wasnt on that line Drai-Yama showed nothing. So one could argue that Yama - Drai showed nothing last year unless Nuge was heavily involved.

 

[BlackDogg]

That’s easily two games this season where Tippett has made me question if he is trying to lose. Up one with 20 minutes to go. Down two with 5 minutes remaining. Score a goal to pull within one. You take a GD timeout and throw out the DRY line! Then once you gain the zone you pull The goalie and throw McDavid out with them. It’s not rocket science. I believe Tippet stated we always have that weapon to go back too when we need it but aside for the last 6 minutes of the playins he has never once reunited the best line in the NHL for 2020.

STOP the STEAL!

If they don't have the tools, you would think he would just get back to defensive hockey whereby everyone is back and covering the zone.

 

[CupofOil]

Lowetide had an interesting lineup change proposal. Moving Nuge to the 3rd line to stop the bleeding because, lets be honest, the 3rd line is BY FAR the weakest link on this team that is littered with weak links so what I'd try is...

Ennis-McDavid-Puljujarvi
Kahun-Draisaitl-Yamamoto
Neal-RNH-Kassian
Nygard-Turris-Archibald

You can flip Neal and Ennis if need be.
It's not ideal but they have to take Turris off that 3rd line. It's getting torched every game.
A merely average 3rd line and they're probably 5-3 even with all the deficiencies elsewhere.

 

[Draiskull]

My thoughts exactly. Tippet needs to stop putting Kassian on the top line. Just give it up already. I only watched part of the second period yesterday, but Kassian and Neal were dominating. They seem like a natural fit. Leave those two together for a few games and see what develops. At worst they are at least a threat to score which this club sorely needs from its third line.

Kassian was only out on the top line for half a shift at the start of 3rd when he left the penalty box.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Since we're on the subject of who's been good and who hasn't...

Great

McDavid
Draisaitl
Yamamoto

Good

RNH
Nurse
Bear
Puljujarvi

Adequate

Koskinen
Koekkoek
Jones
Neal
Shore

Needs improvement

Russell
Kahun (struggled with him, but ultimately one point in 8 games simply is not good enough for a guy stapled to Draisaitl)
Barrie
Kassian
Archibald
Nygard

Awful

Larsson
Khaira
Chiasson
Ennis
Turris

No grade

Smith
Haas
Lagesson
P. Russell
Bouchard

We banked hard on a guy like Jones stepping up, and he's just been okay. We banked hard on Barrie being able to run our powerplay and contribute 5v5 and he looks like a baby deer out there. We banked hard on Turris rediscovering some kind of form, and an AHLer would have been better so far. We banked on Smith being able to play, and so far we've had to ride Koskinen into the dirt.

Ultimately virtually every bet or gamble we made this offseason has blown up in our faces.

You'll notice that 6/6 of the Needs Improvement category and 4/5 of the Awful category were either brought in or extended by Holland.

 

[McShogun99]

Lowetide had an interesting lineup change proposal. Moving Nuge to the 3rd line to stop the bleeding because, lets be honest, the 3rd line is BY FAR the weakest link on this team that is littered with weak links so what I'd try is...

Ennis-McDavid-Puljujarvi
Kahun-Draisaitl-Yamamoto
Neal-RNH-Kassian
Nygard-Turris-Archibald

You can flip Neal and Ennis if need be.
It's not ideal but they have to take Turris off that 3rd line. It's getting torched every game.
A merely average 3rd line and they're probably 5-3 even with all the deficiencies elsewhere.

I like the idea. Mcdavid and Draisaitl will be effective with pretty much any winger. It's not like it will hurt to try it for a game.

 

[McOilers97]

It is very easy to say, after seeing the UFA situation, that Holland should had done this or that. Anyhow, can you tell me what would have happened if Holland traded for Allen, as suggested, and then Holtby signed for less money in FA? Because I know exactly what our fans' reaction and your reaction would had been.

Also, anyone complaining about the Goalie situation has to realize that Koski was gifted to Holland by Pete, other than a buyout we are stuck with him. As for a high paid backup, that money and much more are tied in Pouliot, Sekera and Neil/Lucic.

Yes, I agree that our goalie situation is far from optimal, and that's why Holland went after Markstrom and probably Holtby. One of them may have improved our goalie situation, or maybe not. Are you guys really blaming him for trying to land one of those guys over Jake Allen?
And the reality is that Goalie is NOT our biggest issue, spending about 9 mils on Koski+Allen is not the answer...

Anyhow, I am curious if you'll answer the bolded question.

I agree with you completely. We've seen for years with this team that goalies can play pretty well for a couple years here, but they inevitably fall off a cliff at some point - and not because they just magically stop being good at hockey, but because the team does a terrible job at preventing grade A chances and these goalies can only cover for that for so long.

Dubnyk was very good in 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13 and then totally collpased in 2013-14.

Talbot was very good in 2015-16 and 2016-17 and collapsed in 2017-18 and 2018-19.

Koskinen is a couple notches below both of those guys (who were top 10 goalies in the league for multiple years), as I'd consider him to be a low-end starter or elite backup, but considering that, he's done a pretty good job so far in his 2+ seasons and might similarly implode.

If we had spent $9m in net, I highly doubt we'd be any better. Not with the team's frequent defensive lapses like we saw last night. I hope we can make an improvement in net this coming summer, but there has to be improvements to the rest of the roster too, or the net gain will be marginal at best.

 

[CupofOil]

Since we're on the subject of who's been good and who hasn't...

Great

McDavid
Draisaitl
Yamamoto

Good

RNH
Nurse
Bear
Puljujarvi

Adequate

Koskinen
Koekkoek
Jones
Neal
Shore

Needs improvement

Russell
Kahun (struggled with him, but ultimately one point in 8 games simply is not good enough for a guy stapled to Draisaitl)
Barrie
Kassian
Archibald
Nygard

Awful

Larsson
Khaira
Chiasson
Ennis
Turris

No grade

Smith
Haas
Lagesson
P. Russell
Bouchard

We banked hard on a guy like Jones stepping up, and he's just been okay. We banked hard on Barrie being able to run our powerplay and contribute 5v5 and he looks like a baby deer out there. We banked hard on Turris rediscovering some kind of form, and an AHLer would have been better so far. We banked on Smith being able to play, and so far we've had to ride Koskinen into the dirt.

Ultimately virtually every bet or gamble we made this offseason has blown up in our faces.

Jones and Barrie belong in the awful category IMO.
I think Nygard has been adequate.

I'd put Nurse, Bear and Puljujarvi in the "adequate" category. Nurse and Bear have had ups and downs (mainly due to them playing a pairing above their skill level) and Puljujarvi is in that Kahun category of looking visually good but needs to start producing.

 

[MaxR11]

Lowetide had an interesting lineup change proposal. Moving Nuge to the 3rd line to stop the bleeding because, lets be honest, the 3rd line is BY FAR the weakest link on this team that is littered with weak links so what I'd try is...

Ennis-McDavid-Puljujarvi
Kahun-Draisaitl-Yamamoto
Neal-RNH-Kassian
Nygard-Turris-Archibald

You can flip Neal and Ennis if need be.
It's not ideal but they have to take Turris off that 3rd line. It's getting torched every game.
A merely average 3rd line and they're probably 5-3 even with all the deficiencies elsewhere.

This might be something to try. The benefits of Nuge anchoring a third line might actually outweigh the benefits of him being with Connor if you have the right winger combos for the three lines. Nygard or Neal might be ok on Connor's wing too.

 

[McDNicks17]

And when was that? Yamamoto was always on Draisaitl's line.
When Nuge wasnt on that line Drai-Yama showed nothing. So one could argue that Yama - Drai showed nothing last year unless Nuge was heavily involved.

I'm talking about play on that line.

People keep saying it's Yamo and RNH that had the chemistry, but I can't remember them doing basically anything without Drai.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Yea, I bet that if Holland would had traded for Allen before the FA, for that type of money, you would had praised him [/sarcasm]

Had I known the alternative was re-signing a broken down Smith? Yes I would've. Smith should never have been an option and now we're up shit's creek with one healthy NHL goaltender, who isn't performing all that well. There's no insurance policy. Either Koskinen plays well or the season is lost.

Montreal also re-signed him to a very reasonable deal.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Especially one that isn’t any better than our starter. It’s just adding cap for no gain in the standings.

Allen is better than Smith, and is certainly better than absolutely nobody. Holland screwed the pooch on the goaltending situation. What's worse is that we don't know how Smith was injured, or what he even hurt. We don't know when he's coming back either, or if he'll re-injure himself.

Montreal made a very smart get in Jake Allen. Meanwhile the Oilers have Koskinen and thin air.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Kassian had 3 breakaways and NEAL had an empty net he somehow missed. Imagine if we had got one of those

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Jones and Barrie belong in the awful category IMO.
I think Nygard has been adequate.

I'd put Nurse, Bear and Puljujarvi in the "adequate" category. Nurse and Bear have had ups and downs (mainly due to them playing a pairing above their skill level) and Puljujarvi is in that Kahun category of looking visually good but needs to start producing.

Jones has been pretty good when he gets to play with good players - in particular he's been really solid when out with the Draisaitl line (shots, chances, high danger chances all really good).

Larsson has been a huge drag on him.

Jones CF%: 44.8%
Jones CF% without Larsson: 47.6%
Larsson CF% without Jones: 33%

It's time to play Bouchard. It just is.

Or for more perspective

Players that put up better shot numbers with Larsson than without him:

Nuge
K Russell
Kahun
Yamamoto
Chiasson

Players that put up better shot numbers without Larsson than with him

Lagesson
McDavid
Draisaitl
Kassian
Jones
Nygard
Puljujarvi
Nurse
Turris
Neal
Ennis
Koekkoek
Archibald
Shore
Barrie
P Russell
Khaira
Bear