Tsn: is Crosby the best penguin ever

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lextune

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Is it really that cut and dry for you that you can't see the argument for both players.

It is.

Maybe you are only stat counting and not considering other factors in their 1st 5 years.

Actually I'm mostly going by my eyeballs.

I saw Mario's first five years, and I saw Crosby's first five years.

Crosby is simply not in the same sphere. It is not close.

By his sophomore season Mario was at a level that Crosby has not even approached.

With that being said, Crosby is just ridiculously good, and without a doubt the greatest player in the world. His past 2+ seasons he has really separated himself from Ovechkin.
 
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canucks4ever

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Mar 4, 2008
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So you really think that Mario's offensive stats in a high scoring era so outweigh what Sid did in his 1st 5 years that there is no argument at all?

Maybe you are only stat counting and not considering other factors in their 1st 5 years.

Is it really that cut and dry for you that you can't see the argument for both players.

Look teams do win cups but the best player on those teams usually has the most impact in those teams winning and that counts for something, not sure how much but more than you are giving credit though.

Exactly, being the best player on the cup team is important. Lidstrom won a cup in 2008 as the leader of the team, if ray bourque was on that team instead, he would have found a way to get eliminated. Basketball and baseball place huge importance on champiosnhips, here on hoh it seems to have less value.
 

Hardyvan123

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It is.



Actually I'm mostly going by my eyeballs.

I saw Mario's first five years, and I saw Crosby's first five years.

Crosby just is simply not in the same sphere. It is not close.

Well I suggest that you actually look at the 2 players in their 1st 5 years instead of only trusting your eyeballs, something like 30% of positive ID's from police lineups actually turn out to be false.

Just an idea but if you want to stick to your position and not look at anything else that's your prerogative.
 

lextune

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Nice move throwing Henri Richard into the mix though as he was a very good player but hardly in the Sid or Mario mix for his 1st 5 years,(or ever actually)

He did win 5 Cups in his first five years... :sarcasm:

:P

Look teams do win cups but the best player on those teams usually has the most impact in those teams winning and that counts for something, not sure how much but more than you are giving credit though.
I don't know about that. I'm on record saying that Crosby's performance in their Cup run was one of the top 3 non-Smythe post-seasons in NHL history.
Tough to give him much more credit than that.
I also think that the record he set for most 'first goals' is one of the most under-talked about things in recent NHL memory.

Just go back and read my posts from June of '09

I think the real question is; "Did Crosby have the best first three rounds of all time that didn't end up winning the Smythe?"

Crosby finished only five points behind Malkin, both of them in the elite 30+ point club.

The Pens don't get to the finals without Sid. He had an awesome amount of "big points".

Crosby actually set an amazing record this playoff run.

He scored the the opening goal of six games. It is one of those very telling stats for me....few things set the tone of a playoff game like the game's first goal. Even Wayne, Mario, Kurri and the like, in their playoff goal scoring glory, never put together that kind of performance.

Not incidentally, Pittsburgh won 5 out of those 6 games. And the one loss saw Crosby score all three of his team's goals in a one goal loss 4-3 to the Caps, (the dueling hat tricks night with Ovy).

Without Sid the Pens lose first round.

....saying I'm not giving Sid enough credit is pretty ridiculous given my track record of support for him.

I think what has really happened here is that you have forgotten, (or simply did not see), how astonishing Mario was in his first five years.

Not.

Close.
 

tazzy19

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Mar 27, 2008
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Hardyvan123 (et el): It really shouldn't matter what Lemieux did in his first 5 years vs. Crosby. If the question is about "who is the best Penguin EVER", comparing their first 5 years doesn't even come close to scratching the surface... So what if Crosby is even close to Lemieux during their first 5 years? We're talking about career value here, no? Now, if Crosby had already obliterated seasonally what Lemieux did during his prime years, then maybe we could justify the question now...but as his play stands now, we can (maybe) ask this question in about 10 years (depending if Crosby significantly raises his game to prime era Lemieux proportions, but only if...).
 

redbull

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Mar 24, 2008
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Mario was far more talented than Crosby but Crosby has zero flaws in his game. Crosby is still so young and he's still improving. He'll never reach the offensive peak that Mario did (not just in sheer stats, but in relative contribution to team/league offense) but in terms of overall value, Crosby will be closer to Mario than any other Penguin.

What's so underrated about Sid is how fiercely competitive he is, how reliable he is on the ice regardless of the situation and how much he cares about winning. Mario or Jagr couldn't come close to that IMO - and that, albeit intangible, means a lot.
 

lextune

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Well I suggest that you actually look at the 2 players in their 1st 5 years instead of only trusting your eyeballs, something like 30% of positive ID's from police lineups actually turn out to be false.

"Look at the 2 players"....What does that even mean? I just told you I saw them both.

Hockey is a lot more than just stats. The best way to judge players is to have seen them play.

I give credit to Sid not just for his points, but also for how hard he works. How he always seems to win every puck battle. How strong on the puck he is once he does win the battle.

And I give credit to Mario for more than just his points too. Mario had the greatest stick skills I have ever seen. No one could take a "pass" like Mario. Any piece of junk thrown in his general vicinity was picked up with the greatest of ease like 99 had sent it to him on a platter.

And as a playmaker? Vision and creativity are probably the top two criteria for great playmaking. But stickhandling and one on one skills can also play a big role in passing.
Elite level stickhandling can get a player into unique positions and open up heretofore unreachable and/or unnoticed passing lanes, and one on one skills can simply power a player into those aforementioned lanes. Mario had a level of ice vision and creativity that was a wonder to behold, but when you add the fact that he was the greatest one on one player in history and a stickhandler of supreme skill you have a playmaker second only to The Great One. And he was like this virtually out of the gate. Everyone remembers that Mario scored on his first shot, but what people forget, or simply don't know, if they didn't see the game, is that Mario's first point in the NHL should have been an assist, lol. He made two separate jaw-dropping plays giving his linemates virtually empty nets, (which they missed).

Mario entered the league as a 19 year old on a level that Crosby might be approaching this year, (at 23). It has been great fun watching Crosby add so much to his game these past 2+ seasons; amazing stuff to be sure.
But we can't let the present nature of it cloud our minds. By Mario's 2nd season he was playing a game that Crosby will most likely never equal. And certainly by Lemieux's 4th and 5th seasons he was in another universe.
 

lextune

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What's so underrated about Sid is how fiercely competitive he is, how reliable he is on the ice regardless of the situation and how much he cares about winning.

Not by me.

I've been marveling at how the greatest player in the world plays like he is trying to earn his next shift for the past three years to anyone that would listen.

I have made dozens of posts about it on HF.

....not saying you were referring to me specifically just taking the opportunity to clarify my awe for the kid.
 

Hardyvan123

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"Look at the 2 players"....What does that even mean? I just told you I saw them both.

Hockey is a lot more than just stats. The best way to judge players is to have seen them play.

I give credit to Sid not just for his points, but also for how hard he works. How he always seems to win every puck battle. How strong on the puck he is once he does win the battle.

And I give credit to Mario for more than just his points too. Mario had the greatest stick skills I have ever seen. No one could take a "pass" like Mario. Any piece of junk thrown in his general vicinity was picked up with the greatest of ease like 99 had sent it to him on a platter.

And as a playmaker? Vision and creativity are probably the top two criteria for great playmaking. But stickhandling and one on one skills can also play a big role in passing.
Elite level stickhandling can get a player into unique positions and open up heretofore unreachable and/or unnoticed passing lanes, and one on one skills can simply power a player into those aforementioned lanes. Mario had a level of ice vision and creativity that was a wonder to behold, but when you add the fact that he was the greatest one on one player in history and a stickhandler of supreme skill you have a playmaker second only to The Great One. And he was like this virtually out of the gate. Everyone remembers that Mario scored on his first shot, but what people forget, or simply don't know, if they didn't see the game, is that Mario's first point in the NHL should have been an assist, lol. He made two separate jaw-dropping plays giving his linemates virtually empty nets, (which they missed).

Mario entered the league as a 19 year old on a level that Crosby might be approaching this year, (at 23). It has been great fun watching Crosby add so much to his game these past 2+ seasons; amazing stuff to be sure.
But we can't let the present nature of it cloud our minds. By Mario's 2nd season he was playing a game that Crosby will most likely never equal. And certainly by Lemieux's 4th and 5th seasons he was in another universe.

I'll tackle the last part here 1st and I do agree that judging players is a lot more than just about stats.

On to the stats, Sid's 2nd year of 120 points is just as impressive than Marios' 2nd season of 141 points if we take them into the context of the years they happened in.
Just for comparison adjusted Mario come to 37-73-110
Sid comes to 34-84-122.

Maybe the way the adjusted points works isn't perfect but it tells us a lot more about these 2 players statistically in their 2nd season than just looking at the actual raw totals.

I don't have to go back and look to know that Mario just didn't play defense at all back then he was simply a scoring machine.

If we can agree that Sid had a more complete game (2 way) than Mario in his 1st 5 years then lets compare the stats.

Mario season 4th and 5th seasons were great stat wise but didn't do much in the win department for the Penguins.

The penguins went from 24,34,30(Lemieux only played in 63 games), 36 to 40 wins in his 1st 5 years. His scoring an additional 58 points more in 89 than in 86 (and Coffey was on the team now) resulted in 6 more wins.

Sid's Penguins were vaulted into contender status in his 2nd year and have remained there ever since. (Part of the Pens success was due to the arrival of Malkin and Stall to be sure but conversely Mario's teams added parts in his 1st 5 years as well, Coffey being the main guy in years 4 and 5).

Now maybe Mario's 199 point season was one of the best stat wise in history (it is IMO) but it's really debatable on how much impact that Mario's increased scoring really had on his team winning and winning is kind of important at the end of the day.

And that is before we consider that it took 4 years for Mario to lead his team into the playoffs. sure teams make playoffs but at to some degree the teams best player(s) have some impact on that even if it isn't an exact science.

Sure stat wise,even adjusted, Mario was a lot a bit better in years 4 and 5 (both guys ironically missed a large portion of their 3rd year) and Sid was a bit better in years 1 and 2. He was also better in his 3rd year when we adjust the points (1.47 PPG compared to Mario's' 1.44 in their 3rd years).

I think Sid's 1st 3 years and had pretty good years 4th and 5th years along with his playoff performances and leadership and 2 way play make for an extremely strong argument that he was more valuable and better than Mario in his 1st 5 years.

I'm not sure if pure raw stats is clouding your judgment here or Mario's' latter playoff success (and overall career) in year 6 and 7 especially but clearly your view of these 2 players isn't being very objective IMO when you compare them in their 1st 5 years.

I can make a pretty good argument for Mario as well but to say that it wasn't even close is just plain mind boggling.
 
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BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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Also very funny people throwing the ''completeness'' of Crosby when comparing against Mario Lemieux.Like anybody gives a **** about any flaws Lemieux could have had except his injuries.Do you even know how many PP Lemieux would give his team with the hooking you had to do to stop him 1 out of 5 times? Not to mention Lemieux was the best PP player of all-time without a doubt.I also wonder what Lemieux would do without the red line , cherry picking and scoring 9 out of 10 times on the breakaway or making a perfect pass on the tape to anybody behind the defensemen.If people stopped hooking him getting tire of penalties , he would just score at will , even more than he did.If he decided to just stay in front of the net , who could move him now that you can't cross-check your opponant? Goalies are better now you say? Yeah Lemieux would destroy them.Goalies are always bad against Mario , they're nervous and even if they're not they're still getting scored on.Sure I can't prove it , but I'm pretty sure Kunitz and Dupuis would both have wayyyyy more points playing with Mario.Mario can grow decent facial hair.Mario had tremendous charisma and was so much more spectacular and fun to watch.Crosby is a strong player , but Mario's size made him stronger than him anyway.If some people want to believe Crosby is better it's their choice , but also their lost that they never seen Mario Lemieux play ;).
 

shazariahl

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Apr 7, 2009
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If the question was comparing their first 5 seasons, then Crosby may be in the running (though personally I'd still vote Lemieux quite easily). But that's not the question. When you ask about the best Pen EVER, you have to consider everything Mario and Jagr went on to accomplish with the teams. I know that isn't fair to Crosby, because his career isn't done yet, but that's one of the reasons asking these kinds of questions this early in his career is stupid.

Fact is, Mario won 6 scoring titles. 3 Harts. 2 Cups. He did things like win scoring titles after missing 24 games and coming back from cancer. He saved the franchise. He's a part owner. He is a consensus top 4 player of all time, and is the only person to ever make us think maybe someone could actually threaten Gretzky's records. To this day he is the greatest 1 on 1 player I have ever seen, and the most dominant force on the power play I've ever witnessed. I didn't get to see much of Orr, unfortunately for me I was too young to see more than just the final couple years of his career, but I can say that other than Gretzky I've never seen a player better than Mario Lemieux (again, that may have changed had I see more of #4).

Through 5 seasons, maybe you can have a debate. But I have a very hard time imagining that Crosby will be able to have the kind of success over the next decade or so that Lemieux did over his next 10 years of play.
 

Regal

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In '97-'98 the Pens still had a solid core of players, finished 2nd in the conference, and flamed out in the 1st round against a 7th seeded Canadiens team.

There were some lean years after that until Mario returned, and in that year - when there was no shortage of offensive talent on the Pens - Jagr faltered and not only produced less than a fresh-from-retirement Mario, he also got outscored by Marty Straka. All this despite the Pens bending over backwards to bring in a coach Jagr wanted because he couldn't get along with the last one.

When his antics wore thin in Pittsburgh, he left and wasn't able to lift any of his teams beyond what their regular season record might suggest. The Pens won the Cup as a #4 seed with Crosby as captain, so suggesting he had all the advantages while Jagr was forced to work with nothing but scraps is disingenuous.

I agree and made slight mention to this in my first post. Jagr has definitely had a better career than Crosby, both as a player and as a Pen, but if you look at everything Crosby has meant to the franchise, I could see him being the second best Pen already. He's changed the entire complexity of the team, and turned it into a profitable and highly marketable team, and he's seemed to have created a culture of winning that wasn't there after Mario left.

Similarly, you can say Bure or Naslund or Sedin were better players and may have had better careers, but most people would say Linden was the best "Canuck"

Exactly, being the best player on the cup team is important. Lidstrom won a cup in 2008 as the leader of the team, if ray bourque was on that team instead, he would have found a way to get eliminated. Basketball and baseball place huge importance on champiosnhips, here on hoh it seems to have less value.

I've never heard a huge importance placed on championships in baseball. The game is even more team dependent than hockey is due to specific positions and the batting order. And with the fluctuations from year to year and the fact that it's always been much harder to even make the playoffs, there is rarely even any talk of dynasty teams.

Basketball is different, however. One player makes a much, much larger impact in a basketball game than a player does in hockey. One truly great player basically makes you a playoff team, and two make you a contender. Because of that there's much more chance for an elite player to actually carry his team to a championship, and it becomes a good barometer for how good they are (within reason).

I agree to some extent that players sometimes don't get enough credit for championships here, or that it's used only when it's convenient, but I think generally when you look at players in similar situations as best players on contenders, the ability to actually win it all makes a difference. Though, at the same time, didn't you also say that Dionne was at least as good as Yzerman?
 

Stray Wasp

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The penguins went from 24,34,30(Lemieux only played in 63 games), 36 to 40 wins in his 1st 5 years. His scoring an additional 58 points more in 89 than in 86 (and Coffey was on the team now) resulted in 6 more wins.

Sid's Penguins were vaulted into contender status in his 2nd year and have remained there ever since. (Part of the Pens success was due to the arrival of Malkin and Stall to be sure but conversely Mario's teams added parts in his 1st 5 years as well, Coffey being the main guy in years 4 and 5).

Now maybe Mario's 199 point season was one of the best stat wise in history (it is IMO) but it's really debatable on how much impact that Mario's increased scoring really had on his team winning and winning is kind of important at the end of the day.

And that is before we consider that it took 4 years for Mario to lead his team into the playoffs. sure teams make playoffs but at to some degree the teams best player(s) have some impact on that even if it isn't an exact science.

Indeed the Penguins were vaulted into contender status in Crosby's second year. As I've mentioned, in Sid's first year they improved to the tune of exactly zero points. So magnificent as Crosby was in 06-07, other factors must have played a significant part.

Having already tried to put Mario's first five seasons with the Penguins in a useful context, I'd just like to touch on the bolded point. The 06-07 Penguins benefitted from useful contributions by every first rounder they drafted between 2000 and 2004-the five years before Crosby entered the league. You've cited Malkin (04). Fleury (03) was number one goalie. Ryan Whitney (02) was the number two defenseman. Colby Armstrong (01) was a useful role-player as was Brooks Orpik (00).

What of Pittsburgh's first round picks in the five years before they drafted Mario?

In 83 they would have had the first pick overall in the year of Lafontaine, Yzerman and Barrasso. They traded down to get Ron Meighan and Anders Hakansson and drafted Bob Errey. Hakansson famously turned into Kevin Stevens, but by the end of 88-89, Stevens had only about 40 NHL games under his belt.

In 82 Penguins selected Rich Sutter. He was dealt in a transaction that landed Andy Brickley and Ron Flockhart as well as a first rounder, who proved to be Roger Belanger. Flockhart was traded for John Chabot.

In 81 the Penguins didn't have a first round pick. They'd dealt it to get Rod Schutt.(They would have drafted 7th overall. The Canadiens used that pick to get Mark Hunter. Later first rounders that year: Grant Fuhr, James Patrick, Tony Tanti, Al MacInnis)

In 80 the Penguins selected Mike Bullard. Good choice. Even a stopped clock etc.

In the legendary 79 draft, the Penguins had no first round pick. Whoops. The North Stars eventually bagged that pick, choosing Tom McCarthy. Later first round selections: Ramsey, Reinhart, Propp, McCrimmon, Duane Sutter, Goulet, Lowe.

Who did the Penguins get in exchange for that first rounder? Why Hartland Monahan. By 80-81, that trade had yielded Errol Thompson. By the summer of 81, Thompson was out of the NHL.

In brief, the Penguins pre-Lemieux were guilty of abominable asset management on a scale that barely seems credible now. Indeed, younger posters may look at the list of anonymous names the Penguins acquired and wonder if I'm making this all up. Reliable sources will prove it all actually happened.

Contrastingly, Craig Patrick made enough shrewd drafts pre-Crosby to create the foundations of a winning team once the salary cap bit.

By the way, in case my previous point didn't sink in, the 1984 Penguins did not add former all-stars via unrestricted free agency, as the 05 Penguins were able to do with Gonchar and Recchi. Whereas in 85, the Pens lost 40 goal Wendell Young to the Red Wings, who were scandalising the league by throwing money at the handful of players who were UFAs. Once more, team-building in the 80s was more restricted than in the post-lockout era, even if your general manager wasn't an imbecile.
 

Luigi Lemieux

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Sep 26, 2003
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I wrote this earlier in the thread but I think it bears repeating:

Is being the best Penguin only about individual accolades, or is it about creating the most success for the franchise?

Also, people who are bringing up Jagr's seasons outside the Pens are sort of missing the point.
I think team success counts for quite a bit when comparing players of similar talent. Even if Crosby doesn't win 5 art rosses (i think he will by the time his career is up), i too think he will eclipse Jagr in terms of 2nd best penguin ever. However, Lemieux is just too far ahead of Crosby in talent for team success to make any difference when comparing the two. Even if Crosby captains the pens to 5 stanley cups i wouldn't consider him a better Penguin than Lemieux.
 

Hardyvan123

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Jul 4, 2010
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I think team success counts for quite a bit when comparing players of similar talent. Even if Crosby doesn't win 5 art rosses (i think he will by the time his career is up), i too think he will eclipse Jagr in terms of 2nd best penguin ever. However, Lemieux is just too far ahead of Crosby in talent for team success to make any difference when comparing the two. Even if Crosby captains the pens to 5 stanley cups i wouldn't consider him a better Penguin than Lemieux.

Man I guess that's the bar that legends set huh?

6 cups in the Cap era, along with everything else that would go with it wouldn't be enough?

I wonder what would be, if anything?
 

lextune

I'm too old for this.
Jun 9, 2008
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I do agree that judging players is a lot more than just about stats.
On to the stats

*10 paragraphs of stats*

I'm not sure if pure raw stats is clouding your judgment here

Were you looking in the mirror when you wrote that last part, lol?

your view of these 2 players isn't being very objective IMO when you compare them in their 1st 5 years.

I am being completely objective. I told you; by his second year, Lemieux was playing at a level that Sid has not approached. It has nothing to do with stats. Mario's stats were incidental to his dominance/skill.

As I said earlier. Even if Crosby had won on both trips to finals, and with any adjusted stat anyone cares to use, nothing can magically make Sid as good as Mario. Not in his first five years, not in any one game.
 

lextune

I'm too old for this.
Jun 9, 2008
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I think team success counts for quite a bit when comparing players of similar talent
However, Lemieux is just too far ahead of Crosby in talent for team success to make any difference when comparing the two.

Well said.

A much more succinct version of exactly what I've been saying.

Wish I had said it that way....I hate typing a lot, lol.
 

lextune

I'm too old for this.
Jun 9, 2008
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Man I guess that's the bar that legends set huh?

6 cups in the Cap era, along with everything else that would go with it wouldn't be enough?

I wonder what would be, if anything?

He could be born again and grow up to be 10 times the player that he is now.....

....that would help out, lol.
 

BraveCanadian

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Jun 30, 2010
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Jagr is at least arguable, but are people actually trying to make a case that Crosby is the best Penguin ever .. like above Lemieux ever?

Cause that is certifiably insane. You should get checked out by a professional if you think Crosby is anywhere near Lemieux.

I will say that Crosby is better two ways (although Lemieux was a huge SH threat) and definitely has a much better work ethic than Lemieux did early in his career.

However, if we're comparing talent and accomplishments as a Penguin, he isn't even close to Lemieux.
 

Derick*

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Pro tip: if everytime the issue comes up people do not debate the issue but debate whether it's even a question, the answer is probably no.
 

Maupin Fan

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Sep 17, 2009
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Also very funny people throwing the ''completeness'' of Crosby when comparing against Mario Lemieux.Like anybody gives a **** about any flaws Lemieux could have had except his injuries.Do you even know how many PP Lemieux would give his team with the hooking you had to do to stop him 1 out of 5 times? Not to mention Lemieux was the best PP player of all-time without a doubt.I also wonder what Lemieux would do without the red line , cherry picking and scoring 9 out of 10 times on the breakaway or making a perfect pass on the tape to anybody behind the defensemen.If people stopped hooking him getting tire of penalties , he would just score at will , even more than he did.If he decided to just stay in front of the net , who could move him now that you can't cross-check your opponant? Goalies are better now you say? Yeah Lemieux would destroy them.Goalies are always bad against Mario , they're nervous and even if they're not they're still getting scored on.Sure I can't prove it , but I'm pretty sure Kunitz and Dupuis would both have wayyyyy more points playing with Mario.Mario can grow decent facial hair.Mario had tremendous charisma and was so much more spectacular and fun to watch.Crosby is a strong player , but Mario's size made him stronger than him anyway.If some people want to believe Crosby is better it's their choice , but also their lost that they never seen Mario Lemieux play ;).

This really made me laugh.
 

redbull

Boss
Mar 24, 2008
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Jagr is at least arguable, but are people actually trying to make a case that Crosby is the best Penguin ever .. like above Lemieux ever?

Cause that is certifiably insane. You should get checked out by a professional if you think Crosby is anywhere near Lemieux.

I will say that Crosby is better two ways (although Lemieux was a huge SH threat) and definitely has a much better work ethic than Lemieux did early in his career.

However, if we're comparing talent and accomplishments as a Penguin, he isn't even close to Lemieux.

I completely agree with you.

I cannot believe that anyone who saw Mario Lemieux play, especially in his healthy prime in the early 90s, could ever suggest that there's been anyone close to that.

During his peak, you could make the case that Mario was the best hockey player of all time. Completely dominant, unstoppable.

I think the world of Crosby, best player in the game today, he does everything well and his competitiveness and desire are equal to his leadership and immense talent.

Mario was just another class of player.

Not debatable IMO.
 
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