Tsn: is Crosby the best penguin ever

[Seanconn*]

Technically no player other than Gretzky or Colby Armstrong won an Art Ross from 1981 to 1991.

are you trying to be cute?

 

[Big Phil]

I agree that Crosby is a more well rounded player but I honestly don't see how he is better than Jagr offensively yet.

He doesn't have 5 scoring titles, and he doesn't have any single season better than Jagr's 3 or 4 best seasons. So both for career and peak up to this point he isn't better, offensively.

Crosby has half of one season this year that is roughly on par with Jagr's best full seasons. The difference is Jagr actually did them already and did it more than once.

Exactly, we have to wait and see what Crosby does the rest of this season. Jagr was insane in 1996. He was insane until he got hurt in 1997. He narrowly won scoring titles in 1998 and 2001 but was utterly dominant in 1999 and won a scoring title in 2000 while missing 20 games which is an old Mario trick. This season will tell a lot on whether or not Sid is at the 1999 Jagr level

 

[cupcrazyman]

even Mike Bullard was better than Robert Lang.

 

[Trottier]

As far as I can perceive...

Great post. Great.

The semantics of the word generational make almost any argument about who's generational irrelavent.

That's an interesting observation, with a lot of validity.

Truth is, until this poster stumbled upon this board, he had never seen any disagreement with regard to how the term was defined and used. Among the hockey circles I kept, among players in my and my peers' lifetime, it meant (means) Robert Gordon Orr, #99 and Mario.

Period. There was no debate.

That is to say, we respected the term. It was used exceedingly sparingly. There was never any urge to casually bestow that stature to anyone.

Unfortunately, like the term "dynasty," the word has been devalued by those who have little concept or appreciation of standards of greatness. Or who feel an urge to create "celebrity" where none exists. Hence, next June's #1 prospect is "generational".

Comedy. And the dumbing down/bastardization of the English langauge.

PS - I personally consider #87 to be the best player of his generation, though not within a galaxy of Mario among Pens' greats. For if one even considers him comparable, that means you consider him among the top 5 players ever! Which, of course, is ridiculous. I'm certainly open to future assessment down the road for #87. But right now? Sorry, only in the dreams of the "Born in the 90s" types.

 

[ponder]

Crosby has a decent chance to catch Jagr in terms of career "greatness" with the Pens, he's not close yet but he's only 23. Lemieux is totally untouchable though, which makes this question completely ridiculous.

 

[shazariahl]

As far as I can perceive, for most sensible regular contributors to this board (and I'm not claiming to be either of those things), playoff performance tends to be used as a tie-breaker between players of similar stature. I've never seen anyone here suggest that say, Henri Richard is better than Mario on account of the rings he garnered.

In asking us to judge Mario on his first five years alone, don't forget that after five years we'd seen Mario run amok against the world's best in the Canada Cup. He'd surpassed Esposito's 152 point mark by emphatic margins twice and actually made some of Gretzky's hitherto stratospheric individual scoring records look catchable. Whereas despite Sid's many virtues, last summer we were scratching our heads and wondering how he'd let Henrik Sedin win the Ross, as well as asking when he was going to up the ante scoring-wise by surpassing Jagr and Thornton's points tallies from 05-06. Or tallying more goals in a single season than Jonathan Cheechoo. In short, after five years Lemieux seemed to have limitless possibilities-even when compared with Gretzky. Whereas some of Crosby's supporters have to contort themselves to explain why 120 points was his ceiling over the first five years of his career. Hence I don't put them on an equal footing, despite Sid's playoff heroics.

In terms of the Penguins as a club, after five years Mario had led them to consecutive seasons above .500 for the first time in over a decade and their best regular season points haul since 1975. Mario's arrival helped the Pens to an instant 15 point jump in the standings (compared to the zero point bounce they enjoyed in Crosby's rookie year). In Mario's second season the Penguins achieved their highest points tally since 1979. Unfortunately for them the Wales was a far tougher conference than the Campbell, so they hit a glass ceiling that prevented them reaching the playoffs. Mario getting injured in 86/87 didn't help.

If we're to compare apples with apples, we have to take into account the salary cap, drastically more liberal free agency and changes in the draft, all of which arguably give rebuilding clubs more flexibility now than they enjoyed in the 80s.

Excellent post. And, as you stated, playoffs is basically the decider between players of equal or near-equal level. Its like goals being the tie breaker for the Art Ross.

 

[Seanconn*]

I think we are talking about achievements with other teams to show how much better Jagr was on the Penguins, or just to show the shear length Sid still has to go to beat Jagr on an all time list.

Jaromir Jagr is NHL all time leading scorer #9 with the second fewest games in the top 17. and scored a lot in the "dead puck" era. At 1273 games played. Crosby hits 1600 within 50 games, and does a lot more with the pe

Crosby seriously has to crack the top 10 all time in similar amount of games played, preferably less.. and win some more cups for the Pens. minimum 1 more hart, 2 rockets, and 3 cups. And 1 Presidents trophy. I think this is what the Penguins need again, since they only have one.. and Crosby could be the guy to lead the team.

I have to agree that Crosby definitely had the better start, but Crosby basically replaced the #1 center position that Lemieux had. Jagr came onto the team with Mario in his prime. Sid was pretty much automatically the best player on the Penguins on his first game.

I still barely have Crosby ahead of Ovi right now. Ovi is basically the mirror image to Jagr, but more physical and even more heart.

If somehow magically the Penguins could have kept Jagr, and mario together until the lockout, both players would have ended up a lot higher on the NHL all time scoring chart. Jagr could have played 1400+ games, and posted 1700+ points and wedge in between Stevie Y and Marcel Dionne.

The fact that he is #9 with the second least games + played in the dead puck era / had the lockout. still has sid has a long way to go written all over it.

 

[DwightKSchrute]

o_0

IMO Crosby also projects to be better than Francis at this point. Just a matter of time. He could pass Jagr if he plays at this level for another 9-10 years. He will never catch Lemieux.[/QUOTE/]

Bang on right here.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I wrote this earlier in the thread but I think it bears repeating:

Is being the best Penguin only about individual accolades, or is it about creating the most success for the franchise?

Also, people who are bringing up Jagr's seasons outside the Pens are sort of missing the point.

It appears nobody wants to address the question of whether a player's contributions to the team beyond scoring titles is worth discussing when talking about "The Best (Player On A Particular Sports Team) Ever".

Here's an interesting ice-breaker regarding Jagr:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/penguins/s_564192.html

Contrast that with how Crosby is perceived by his teammates, coaching staff, and management regarding his work ethic, focus on the less glamourous details of the sport, and initiative to tailor his game to the coach's system...and its trickle down effect throughout the line-up.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Jagr never led any teams to the Finals as the go-to guy, and Crosby's already led his team to two Finals appearances. Raw talent isn't everything, and if I wanted to win, I know who I'd rather have leading my team.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I don't think it's a coincidence that Jagr never led any teams to the Finals as the go-to guy, and Crosby's already led his team to two Finals appearances. Raw talent isn't everything, and if I wanted to win, I know who I'd rather have leading my team.

It really helps when your team isn't going bankrupt and can afford to keep a team together that is capable of winning.

The late 90s Pens were going bankrupt and basically sent anyone making any money packing.. including Jagr himself eventually.

Everyone knows about Jagr's "moodiness" but you could have put Messier in his prime on that team as the supposedly "best leader ever" and that team wouldn't have won squat.

 

[Hardyvan123]

It really helps when your team isn't going bankrupt and can afford to keep a team together that is capable of winning.

The late 90s Pens were going bankrupt and basically sent anyone making any money packing.. including Jagr himself eventually.

You could have put Messier in his prime on that team as the supposedly "best leader ever" and that team wouldn't have won squat.

Well Messier's leadership skills either were lost or are overrated judging by his time in Vancouver

 

[BraveCanadian]

Well Messier's leadership skills either were lost or are overrated judging by his time in Vancouver

Yes but its amazing how the "winner" label sticks and the other stuff gets whitewashed.

Lemieux was also very moody and poor with the media especially earlier in his career. I noticed a huge difference in him when he came back in that regard. He improved to the point that I thought he was a great captain and very well spoken under a lot of pressure in 2002 on the Olympic team, for example.

 

[Trottier]

It appears nobody wants to address the question of whether a player's contributions to the team beyond scoring titles is worth discussing when talking about "The Best (Player On A Particular Sports Team) Ever".

What?

I've spent my life on this board making that point ad nauseum to Generation Fantasy League types here, who recite numbers exclusively, instead of watching games and appreciating anything that occurs outside of the offensive zone.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It really helps when your team isn't going bankrupt and can afford to keep a team together that is capable of winning.

The late 90s Pens were going bankrupt and basically sent anyone making any money packing.. including Jagr himself eventually.

Everyone knows about Jagr's "moodiness" but you could have put Messier in his prime on that team as the supposedly "best leader ever" and that team wouldn't have won squat.

In '97-'98 the Pens still had a solid core of players, finished 2nd in the conference, and flamed out in the 1st round against a 7th seeded Canadiens team.

There were some lean years after that until Mario returned, and in that year - when there was no shortage of offensive talent on the Pens - Jagr faltered and not only produced less than a fresh-from-retirement Mario, he also got outscored by Marty Straka. All this despite the Pens bending over backwards to bring in a coach Jagr wanted because he couldn't get along with the last one.

When his antics wore thin in Pittsburgh, he left and wasn't able to lift any of his teams beyond what their regular season record might suggest. The Pens won the Cup as a #4 seed with Crosby as captain, so suggesting he had all the advantages while Jagr was forced to work with nothing but scraps is disingenuous.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

What?

I've spent my life on this board making that point ad nauseum to Generation Fantasy League types here, who recite numbers exclusively, instead of watching games and appreciating anything that occurs outside of the offensive zone.

In this thread, regarding the Jagr/Crosby discrepancy, Trotts.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

a mid twenties jagr would outscore the league by about 15 points, his array of size, strength along the boards, vision, and deking ability would be second to none pretending mario wasn't in this same time period.

 

[BraveCanadian]

In '97-'98 the Pens still had a solid core of players, finished 2nd in the conference, and flamed out in the 1st round against a 7th seeded Canadiens team.

When his antics wore thin in Pittsburgh, he left and wasn't able to lift any of his teams beyond what their regular season record might suggest. The Pens won the Cup as a #4 seed with Crosby as captain, so suggesting he had all the advantages while Jagr was forced to work with nothing but scraps is disingenuous.

During the season that the Pens won the cup with Crosby, it was Malkin that lead the team in scoring during the regular season AND the playoffs. Oh, and Malkin won the Conn Smythe (although Crosby was certainly in the running).

I don't recall Jagr having help like that in 97-98. And as good as Ron Francis was.. in his mid-30s I don't think he compares. I'm also pretty sure that Jordan Staal > Stu Barnes and Sergei Gonchar > Kevin Hatcher.

But that is beside the point. There is still no way to make the case that Crosby has surpassed Jagr as a Pen after only 5 seasons.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

During the season that the Pens won the cup with Crosby, it was Malkin that lead the team in scoring during the regular season AND the playoffs. Oh, and Malkin won the Conn Smythe (although Crosby was certainly in the running).

Crosby was 1st in league scoring when he was injured. Malkin won the Conn Smythe when Crosby faced the tougher Red Wings' defensive assignments by far.

I don't recall Jagr having help like that in 97-98. And as good as Ron Francis was.. in his mid-30s I don't think he compares. I'm also pretty sure that Jordan Staal > Stu Barnes and Sergei Gonchar > Kevin Hatcher.

Ron Francis was tied for 5th in league scoring that year, on top of being a veteran defensive ace. Barnes and Hatcher had 65 and 48 points that year in the clutch-and-grab era.

It was a solid team by any standard, and they came up well short of their potential. The '09 Pens exceeded their #4 seed expectations, though that often gets glossed over in hindsight.

But that is beside the point. There is still no way to make the case that Crosby has surpassed Jagr as a Pen after only 5 seasons.

Sure there is. He has contributed more to the Pens winning. That argument shouldn't be confused with saying he's had a more impressive individual career.

And again, that's without addressing Jagr's actions and underwhelming performance when Mario came back.

 

[lextune]

I hope that clears that up for you and that i was not kidding, there really is an argument about which Penguin was the best or most valuable in his 1st 5 years.

There is no argument.

Even if Sid had won on his first trip to finals as well. Two Cups in his first 5 years is a team achievement. Thinking that that somehow would magically put him on the same level as Mario's first five years, (or any of Mario's years for that matter), is akin to "Cup counting" and declares Henri Richard as the greatest player in the history of the NHL.

Look; Crosby is the greatest player in the world. I've been saying that Ovy, as great as he is, is a noticeable step below him for the last three seasons, but he is quite simply not in the same sphere as Mario.
Not for their "first five seasons", not for any one season, not for any period of time.

 

[Jumbo*]

No, his name is Jagr.

 

[canucks4ever]

There is no argument.

Even if Sid had won on his first trip to finals as well. Two Cups in his first 5 years is a team achievement. Thinking that that somehow would magically put him on the same level as Mario's first five years, (or any of Mario's years for that matter), is akin to "Cup counting" and declares Henri Richard as the greatest player in the history of the NHL.

Look; Crosby is the greatest player in the world. I've been saying that Ovy, as great as he is, is a noticeable step below him for the last three seasons, but he is quite simply not in the same sphere as Mario.
Not for their "first five seasons", not for any one season, not for any period of time.

Why aren't championships important in hockey? Everyone praises bill russell for his 11 rings and many basketball scholars rank him above wilt and kareem. Tim duncan is always ranked above malone. Yet lidstrom will never rank above bourque because his regular season longevity doesnt compare?

 

[lextune]

Why aren't championships important in hockey?

They are important.

Just not enough so to make Crosby equal to Mario in anyway; through any stretch. And not enough to make Henri Richard the greatest player in history.

It is all relative.

 

[edog37]

No, Crosby is not the best Penguin ever. Right now I think he'll probably equal or top Jagr but no way does he ever pass Lemieux.

He already surpassed Jagr, but he won't catch Lemieux.

 

[Crosbyfan]

They are important.

Just not enough so to make Crosby equal to Mario in anyway; through any stretch. And not enough to make Henri Richard the greatest player in history.

It is all relative.

Exactly...and the relative is his big brother...Maurice!

 

[Hardyvan123]

They are important.

Just not enough so to make Crosby equal to Mario in anyway; through any stretch. And not enough to make Henri Richard the greatest player in history.

It is all relative.

So you really think that Mario's offensive stats in a high scoring era so outweigh what Sid did in his 1st 5 years that there is no argument at all?

Maybe you are only stat counting and not considering other factors in their 1st 5 years.

Is it really that cut and dry for you that you can't see the argument for both players.

Look teams do win cups but the best player on those teams usually has the most impact in those teams winning and that counts for something, not sure how much but more than you are giving credit though.

Nice move throwing Henri Richard into the mix though as he was a very good player but hardly in the Sid or Mario mix for his 1st 5 years,(or ever actually)