Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 10)
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bsl
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- Oct 9, 2009
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LOL Timmins has been absolute shit for ten years. Cannot believe people here still defend him. And I know why people defend him here. They think they will get jobs with habs. LOL.(mod) 'It's all on DEVOLOPMENT'. LOL. No it is not. Timmins can't draft talent for shit. And is absolutety shit in round 1. Call the truth for truth. Stop Lying. You are mendacious. I called out Timmins six years ago. I said if Scherbak and Mac failed that was it. And I stand by this. Go ahead and tell me it's on 'Development' LOL.
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MasterDecoy
Who took my beer?
well, development is/was certainly an issue. but timmins track record is really, really f***ing poor; its almost indefensibly bad by this point.
look at the roster thats being iced: the players we drafted? price, gallagher, kotka, romanov, that's basically it. if anything, the fact that the canadiens are still somewhat competitive with a drafting record like this, is proof that bergevin is really good at finding and trading for under valued players rather than the team being able to draft anything
look at the roster thats being iced: the players we drafted? price, gallagher, kotka, romanov, that's basically it. if anything, the fact that the canadiens are still somewhat competitive with a drafting record like this, is proof that bergevin is really good at finding and trading for under valued players rather than the team being able to draft anything
Tanknation
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- Feb 24, 2012
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Timmins is pure garbage. Not even garbage but 100% pure sewage filled with putrid diarrhea. How anyone can defend his record is beyond me. Do we need to wait another 20 years of horrible drafting before people realize this?
HotPie
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- Dec 3, 2007
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I agree with you. You will get flamed for merely suggesting that everything is not Bergevin's fault though.
For the record, I think Bergevin has been awful. And part of that is his failure to recognize how mediocre Timmins has been with the Habs for almost 20 years, and not firing him.
It's like some people don't recognize that the Timmins' job is arguably the second most important for a franchise, and he's not been good at it. You're never going to be a contender and even sniff a cup with someone as mediocre as Timmins. And mediocre is putting it nicely, because he's been downright awful at times.
I just don't understand how much longer the Habs need to be mediocre before he stops having apologists. He's been here for almost twice as long as Bergevin. How many more years of mediocrity do we actually need? Almost 20 is not enough?
To be fair, Timmins' apologists seem to be a minority now. Occupying the same position as Bergevin apologists
. The irony...
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Adam Michaels
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While Bouchard is definitely the biggest reason why the prospects are doing so well, aside from the players themselves, but we should also give some credit to the Habs' change in draft strategy.
Since the 2017 draft, Habs have not only been drafting more players, but have been selecting better players.
2017: Poeling, Brook, Fleury & Primeau
2018: Kotkaniemi, Ylonen, Romanov, Hillis (need to see him more often) & Harris
2019: Caufield, Struble, Norlinder, Fairbrother, Khisamutdinov & RHP
2020: Guhle, Tuch, Mysak & Farrell
Only time will tell how these kids turn out in the NHL. But since 2017, Habs have improved their drafting strategy and their approach to development.
Since the 2017 draft, Habs have not only been drafting more players, but have been selecting better players.
2017: Poeling, Brook, Fleury & Primeau
2018: Kotkaniemi, Ylonen, Romanov, Hillis (need to see him more often) & Harris
2019: Caufield, Struble, Norlinder, Fairbrother, Khisamutdinov & RHP
2020: Guhle, Tuch, Mysak & Farrell
Only time will tell how these kids turn out in the NHL. But since 2017, Habs have improved their drafting strategy and their approach to development.
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Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
- Jan 5, 2003
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While some players love to use the revisionist history, Scherbak does his mea culpa. Not Lefebvre's fault. Not the Habs fault. His own fault.
I had my chances and didn't take them. I had a good season in Laval, I had plenty of confidance when I was called up and then things didn't go as planned. I had to battle adversitiy and I didn't manage it well. Everything is my fault.
« J’ai eu mes opportunités et je ne les ai pas saisies, confesse-t-il. J’ai eu une bonne saison à Laval, j’étais en pleine confiance quand j’ai eu mon rappel et ensuite, les choses ne se sont pas déroulées comme prévu. J’ai vécu des moments d’adversité que je n’ai pas bien gérés. Tout est ma faute. »
La deuxième chance de Nikita Scherbak
I had my chances and didn't take them. I had a good season in Laval, I had plenty of confidance when I was called up and then things didn't go as planned. I had to battle adversitiy and I didn't manage it well. Everything is my fault.
« J’ai eu mes opportunités et je ne les ai pas saisies, confesse-t-il. J’ai eu une bonne saison à Laval, j’étais en pleine confiance quand j’ai eu mon rappel et ensuite, les choses ne se sont pas déroulées comme prévu. J’ai vécu des moments d’adversité que je n’ai pas bien gérés. Tout est ma faute. »
La deuxième chance de Nikita Scherbak
I read about this drafting "change" a few times, but nothing has been said on exactly what those changes have been. Did they hire better scouts and let go of the bad ones? Hire more scouts? Are they embracing analytics more? Did Churla have more say and if so, what happens now that he is gone? Are they scouting in different areas?
I am very skeptical when it comes to the Habs and drafting well - while it does appears better lately, i will hold off judgement until i hear exactly what they did/are doing that has lead to this "improvement".
Vachon23
Registered User
I'm not saying that development wasn't an issue, but even with the best development team in the history, you can't transform a Lada in a Ferrari.
Adam Michaels
Registered User
They have gotten rid of older scouts and hired new ones. Not across the board. But maybe enough to make a difference.
And the strategy has been to acquire more picks and the kind of players they selected are more mobile and have higher IQ. Another strategy is that the last few years, Habs have held their own combines in Europe, where they get to test more European players, which is where they truly fell in love with Romanov. That extra step has helped them widen their knowledge on the prospects eligible for the draft.
Their drafting isn't flawless. But it's improved.
Grate n Colorful Oz
Hutson Hawk
Your comment is tainted with a sort of disdain or bias towards players who couldn't make it. Scherbak could skate circles around probably anyone here. The real world comparison is more like elite players are F1s, and borderline players are indy cars. You and I are the Ladas.
In other words, if he's a lada, what does that make you? A moped?
DAChampion
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- May 28, 2011
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Yes but you are not omniscient, realistically you can't say what Scherbak's potential actually was. We'll stick with what we know, that whatever his potential was, he was mismanaged.
Vachon23
Registered User
Replace the Lada by an Indycar and the Ferrari by a F1 if you prefer...
And your car can look awesome when you look at it but there is no engine in it so you can't do a lot with it... (Scherbak)
Vachon23
Registered User
I wasn't talking only about Scherbak, but guys like McCarron/Tinordi/Crips/DLR too
Adam Michaels
Registered User
Good on him to own up to his part of the blame. But in his defense, I also don't think Lefebvre did much to help the kid progress. But Scherbak isn't wrong, it can't be 100% on Sly. The players do need to take part of the blame.
Although I can't help but just picture how Scherbak would do had his pro career started with Bouchard instead.
It is time..............to move on from Trevor Timmins....there is no question. Keep him away from future drafts if you keep him on the payroll as an asst GM. /Turn the drafts over to someone else....it is beyond time.
I realize we have not developed well either, but seriously guys, TT got to go...
I realize we have not developed well either, but seriously guys, TT got to go...
DAChampion
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- May 28, 2011
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Recent Timmins' draftees doing well this year:
Jesperi Kotkaniemi
Jake Evans
Alex Romanov
Ryan Poehling
Kaiden Guhle
Jesse Ylonen
Josh Brook
Cole Caulfield
Jordan Harris
#FireTimmims ... Or rather, don't.
What's happening now is exactly what Timmins' defenders like myself predicted. A few years following the Therrien-Lefebvre era, the prospect pool is improving.
There's a credible case that the Habs could have 3+ effective rookies on the next year.
And the situation might be even better the following year.
Jesperi Kotkaniemi
Jake Evans
Alex Romanov
Ryan Poehling
Kaiden Guhle
Jesse Ylonen
Josh Brook
Cole Caulfield
Jordan Harris
#FireTimmims ... Or rather, don't.
What's happening now is exactly what Timmins' defenders like myself predicted. A few years following the Therrien-Lefebvre era, the prospect pool is improving.
There's a credible case that the Habs could have 3+ effective rookies on the next year.
And the situation might be even better the following year.
- Aug 21, 2016
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We never had promising kids with Laval under Lefebvre though, Leblanc and Scherbak were hopeless as far as Im concerned... But of course, I really like Bouchard and Im not underrating the great job he is doing with our kids, he sure is a highly competent coach...
HotPie
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- Dec 3, 2007
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Ah yes, another post hyping up a bunch of our prospects. I haven't seen that at all in the last twenty years.
- Aug 21, 2016
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Exactly this, Im not a fan of bashing coaches since thats a crazy job to handle, best example, last season and at the start of this one, Caufield and the Badgers were struggling badly and Granato was called a poor coach by everyone, look at the Badgers now, a team completely transformed, so is Caufield...
Lefebvre had very little to work with and your post is partly proving it, under Lefebvre, we were trading our picks, under Bouchard, we have done the opposite, so you have to put it in the equation as well as the location of our farm...
I agree about Lefebvre, but I'm not sure LeBlanc or Sherbak would've made it regardless of development. Same with Fucale. Just bad picks and/or not enough drive to want to succeed. Has LeBlanc ever said anything about his time in Montreal? Just curious
montreal
Go Habs Go
he also crapped on them in the past if I recall correctly, as shortly after he did it to the russian media i believe, he fell out of favor with his coach bob hartly who before that spent a year trying to convince him to come to the KHL from what the article said (going from memory)
but good on him to take the blame, when it comes to Scherbak I said many times he owns his fair share of blame. Kid just seemed to laid back, didn't seem to work hard enough. Could be so lazy at times or just terrible in his own end. That's on him.
But having a major knee injury over the summer (from the WHL playoffs), as a 19 year old that turned 20 almost 3 months into the season, reinjures the knee and comes back and in his first game gets a concussion and now he's missed months and it's mid seas0n. To have the idea to move a just turned 20 year old days earlier who was playing terrible defense on the wing and looked physically overmatched. To move him to center in the middle of the season that he's barely played and the rest of the league is in mid-season form. That's on development.
The next season they take the 2 youngest forwards, who are both weak defensively and not the hardest workers and they are tied at the hip as him and Audette kept playing together until they finally realized it wasn't working and moved him up with Hudon and Terry. That's also on development.
But as I said what feels like 100s of times. EVERYONE shares blame here. Scherbak, MB, Timmins, Lefebvre, etc..
And i've never seen anyone suggest that development can transform a average or below average player into a superstar player.
Posters don't go around saying I can't believe our development team couldn't turn McCarron into Cam Neely. But they should have been able to do a better job with him.
Well MB doesn't have too many left he can fire so Timmins could be next. But as has been said many times in these Timmins threads, MB had the chance to fire him and instead he promoted him. Then the past 3 drafts they finally got him a ton of picks. Now the system is the best it's ever looked. What does that lead to no one knows. But when you have the best player in the NCAA, the best player in the USHL, one of the best defensemen in the NCAA, one of the best U-20 defensemen in the NCAA, one of the best U-21 goal scoring blueliners in the SHL, a top rookie in AHL, etc... clearly things are looking good for the system.
He had shit years, he's made too many mistakes missing on high end players, and maybe he does get fired but how stupid would MB look if when our farm system turned to shit under MB, he promoted the guy he should of fired and then when our farm system is at it's best and they finally give this guy a lot of picks in what appears to be non weak drafts like 2012/2013 turned out to be, then they fire him? What would the next head scout think about the situation and wanting to work under Molson/MB.
Farrell top player in the USHL
Struble one of the top U-20 blueliners in the NCAA
Norlinder one of the top goal scoring U-21 blueliners in the SHL
Tuch has had a very good year
Teasdale, Vejdemo, RHP all playing well in the AHL
It is funny how a good coach in the AHL, more picks, higher picks and now our system looks the best i've ever seen. That's why I can never understand people that don't believe or put much stock in development and coaching. It just blows my mind every time I read that. Of course it doesn't excuse all the mistakes Timmins and his staff made, as every head scout makes their fair share of mistakes but he's had some big ones but MB, MT, Julien, Lefebvre did not help matters which was their job.
because all prospects are the same?
Pre MB era - Price, Subban, Pac, McDonagh, Halak, Kosty, Grabo, Lats, Lappy, etc...
We clearly were able to draft, develop and get NHLers before MB got here.
HotPie
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I never said they were. I'm just saying it's not the first time we've hyped up prospects only for it to backfire. In fact, I'd say that's probably closer to the norm around here.
But yes, let's keep defending the guy who's been nothing but mediocre for the past twenty years. Even the best argument for Timmins, the "quantity vs. quality" or "Games Played" argument fails under actual scrutiny, but okay. He had a few good years early in his career with the Habs, good enough.
Let's stay mediocre I guess.
It's just funny because the people who defend him would never extend the same courtesy as they would towards coaches/management. It's dishonest.
Not that I'm saying you're necessarily defending Timmins, although that is how many of your posts come across.
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montreal
Go Habs Go
So because prospects got hyped in the past it means what? That even though all prospects are different we shouldn't hype them. Is Caufield not the best player in the NCAA, is Harris not one of the best blueliners in the NCAA, is Struble not among the top scoring U-20 blueliners just as Harris was last year? Is Norlinder not among the top goal scoring U-21 blueliners in the SHL as a rookie? Is Tuch not having a very good start to his NCAA career? Is Farrell not dominating the USHL, Is Dobes not one of the best goalies in the USHL, is Ylonen not doing great in the AHL as a rookie, et....
There is nothing wrong with pointing out when Timmins does things well, as it's the same as pointing out his mistakes. Nothing says these kids will turn into NHLers, no one knows that but what happened in the past means nothing for what the future holds for these kids.
As for medicore, that's on Molson and the GM. We had one of the worst seasons in our history. How does a GM not only not get fired but gets put in charge of the rebuild. Timmins made some big mistakes, how does his boss promote him? Now he's finally brought in some good players like Toffoli, Anderson, Allen, Edmundson but clearly we have more work to do since those guys are doing great while Tatar, Danault, Weber, Price, Chiarot aren't. If this team was good in OT/SO we would be in 1st place. If the Danault line plays like they have in the past, we are in 1st place. But MB had to know at some point all the wear and tear on Price/Weber will start to show as they have a lot of miles on them. That's on him just as it is the almost 4M in dead cap space to Alzner.
HotPie
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- Dec 3, 2007
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What I'm saying is that we should lay off the hype train until we can see what they can actually do in the NHL. I get it though, some people are passionate about our prospects. This is clearly a passion for you. But in the end, we know almost next to nothing until we can see what they can actually do in the big leagues. I get that some people like to discuss them, and that's fine, I just personally see zero value in such discussions or projections until we can see what they do in the NHL after a few years.
And if history is an indicator, most of our prospects fail to live up to the hype. Does that mean they all do? Or that it's always going to be the case? No. But it's a trend, and trends have *some* predictive value, especially when they're attached to a root cause.
And the mediocrity of this franchise isn't solely on Timmins obviously. It's on Molson, it's on Bergevin, and it's on Timmins, the guy who's been here longer than both of them, with very little to show for it.
As long as those three guys are there, this franchise is going nowhere.
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