Training Camp Thread (Thursday = day off)

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Scandale du Jour

JordanStaal#1Fan
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I think you’d have a harder time selling a trap system to Crosby and Malkin more than anybody else.

And if it can’t be sold to Crosby it’s not going to happen for very long.

Not if you sell it well.

Basically, you sell the defensive structure and let them free when they DO get the puck.

If played well, they should have the puck plenty considering we seem to have the horses on D to drive transition.

Geno should thrive in such a system. He is GREAT off the rush and he is at his most dangerous when he gets the puck in our zone and drives transition.

Sid is at his best on the cycle and playing a counter game does not prevent that.

You have to explain to them how, at the end of the day, it will help both AND the team AND bring better results.

Letang might be a harder guy to convince as you would take a little bit from his strenghts (skating with the puck a lot).
 

Empoleon8771

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I think you’d have a harder time selling a trap system to Crosby and Malkin more than anybody else.

And if it can’t be sold to Crosby it’s not going to happen for very long.

I mean on one hand, you're probably right because these players just want to put up points in the regular season. But on the other hand, there's no reason that they can't put up points while also running the trap. Look at the 2003 Devils, who I'd consider the "peak" trapping team. They finished 14th in GF that year, but that was due to an abysmal 11.88% PP. With a league average PP, they would have jumped from 14th to 10th. Those Devils teams didn't have some stellar bottom-6 production, and they certainly didn't have the firepower that this current Penguins team has.

I don't see why the Penguins can't be a top-10 offensive team while also running the trap.
 
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Jesse

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I want to see a new age version of the trap that basically focuses around counter attack. So it's aggression in small space basically. I think that will lead to turnovers and odd man rushes in the Pens favor. You can call it a 1-3-1, LWL, 1-4 but in reality it is none of those.

I want to see basically a 1-4 set forcing to one side but as soon we get the force, we attack almost like an all out pressure. We are going to create bad passes/turnovers. Then we need to convert immediately off the rush, which is really our strength.

@Jesse Would you EVER see Sully finding this type of format?

I could see 2017 Mike Sullivan doing it.
 
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Empoleon8771

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I also think you can sell Crosby and Malkin on a play style like Boston has fairly easily, too. Boston has been able to vastly overachieve defensively despite having what I'd call a "mediocre" defensive group, and it's entirely because of the system they run. Guys like Pastrnak and Marchand can still put up points with Boston, but the team is still excellent defensively.

I saw a comment on reddit that made a lot of things click with me: I think the Penguins are trying to re-image themselves into being like Boston. I think Sullivan and JR can point at Boston's success and say "we want to play like this", and I don't see what argument Crosby and Malkin would have against it. Can't put up points playing like that? Marchand hit 100 points in 2018-2019 and Pastrnak won the Rocket Richard last year.

If you look at Boston's roster in their last game of last year, they were built the same was as the Penguins current forward lineup. They had their scoring top-6 (Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak and DeBrusk-Krejci-Kase) and then a mostly gritty defensive bottom-6 (Bjork-Coyle-Studnika and Kuhlman-Nordstrom-Lindholm). Sure, Coyle is way better than Jankowski, but it's the same basic idea.
 
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Gurglesons

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I could see 2017 Mike Sullivan doing it.

miniuk16.png


Let me know when you see this in front of PPG.
 
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Ugene Magic

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The most telling thing from Micah's simulations is that the Penguins played 1 million fake games and their results look like that of a team that runs a Guy Boucher 1-3-1 or a Ken Hitchcock NZ trap, not a team with Crosby, Guentzel, Malkin, Letang, Marino, etc...

The goals are going to be seriously hard to come by - I wonder whether or not Sullivan will make any adjustments to account for the lack of goal scoring depth.

If you can't beat the trap - and your roster analytically leans trap, maybe it's time to trap. :huh:

Without getting too deep into the equation, I like the promising possibilities that Jankowski brings. Dare I say, looks to be very light Staal like capabilities both offensively, defensively and PK as well. This is where I think they hinge the probabilities of the success of the bottom six.

As far as the trap goes, you'd hope it's a variation of it, but the top six will not be in favor of this. That will make this situational. You really can't play the trap efficiently if they are down a couple goals trying to get back into the game, but it should be used if you have the lead or neutral. In game adjustments is where this will be effective. Sully, will have to make those adjustments and get the team/lines to buy in and somehow converse what he wants with simple commands. You would hope, in time, with regularity, the players wouldn't need told what needs used at any given point in the game.

Are you going to break down each given line with the pros & cons? These isolated looks at them are fine within the players themselves but looking at what each lines potential will give a far more accurate look. Considering the 3rd line has never played with one another it is the most intriguing for what we will see/get.

I don't think anyone has a "real" concern with Kapanen and how he'll perform with Sid/Jake. This is one addition you don't want to rush to any conclusions considering the players who have patrolled the RW for him (Sid) over the years. Kap's toolbelt pretty much is almost tailor made.

I want to see a new age version of the trap that basically focuses around counter attack. So it's aggression in small space basically. I think that will lead to turnovers and odd man rushes in the Pens favor. You can call it a 1-3-1, LWL, 1-4 but in reality it is none of those.

I want to see basically a 1-4 set forcing to one side but as soon we get the force, we attack almost like an all out pressure. We are going to create bad passes/turnovers. Then we need to convert immediately off the rush, which is really our strength.

@Jesse Would you EVER see Sully finding this type of format?


Here's the problem, knowing when and where to properly adopt/transition the trap in and out. If they are down a couple you can almost eliminate using the trap at all. They will be pushing offense through the top 2/3 lines.

This is where in game adjustments come in. Situational. Break down in game scenarios and map each turn of events to come up with your best plan to address each scenario. Give it a code to yell out, a simple letter..


DB style kind of like Hangman. Haha..

T - trap in the 1-4
R - reduced trap 2-2-1
A - Attack 2-3
P - Pressure 1-1-3
S - Safe 1-3-1
 

Lust for Life

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Give me your best ways to over-react to the lines on the first training camp day. I want to really read too much into things today.
 

Andy99

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I think you’d have a harder time selling a trap system to Crosby and Malkin more than anybody else.

And if it can’t be sold to Crosby it’s not going to happen for very long.

completely agree...the top players don’t want to play it because it’s no fun, but they need to do it in the POs and someone (coaching staff) has to do a better job convincing them it’s needed to win in the POs...
 

Empoleon8771

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They have seen Poulin in this environment before. Being undrafted straight out of college makes it a ton of sense to want to see him right off.

Eh idk about that. I've heard the organization is super high on O'Connor so I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I also don't know why they'd want to see an undrafted prospect if they didn't intend on giving him a look at that spot, seeing how they only have a handful of practices before the first game next Wednesday.
 
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Andy99

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Someone check on Pens x. They're gonna lose their f***ing mind over a non-descript morning skate on day 1 of training camp while the de facto 1RW is unavailable.


that’s a really sad lineup that’s not going to beat the Flyers...let’s hope someone in the bottom six or ERod steps up big offensively ...
 

SEALBound

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It would be a hack statement to make. Good thing that's not at all what I said and you've 100% completely made up something based off of a tweet that correctly indicated the time to build chemistry in camp would not be there given he's missing all of camp.

Last week I ran a poll on twitter about the confidence level of my followers regarding Kapanen's ability to play with Crosby. The poll had a pretty low confidence level. "If you are concerned about his ability to play that role...." = if you voted in my poll accordingly.

Way cooler to just willingly misunderstand stuff and call someone a hack, though. I think you're the one with the garbage take here.

Well a twitter poll changes everything... My response was based on your single tweet. If there's a misunderstanding of what your intent with the tweet was, so be it. Since I don't do twitter, I only see what's posted here. As I said, it did seem odd coming from you. And I didn't call you a hack, I said that would be a hack take.



Did Micah's model take into account the 8 team division?

How Ceci is still only like 26 or 27 baffles me. I feel like he's 35 years old and he sure plays like it.

If someone makes the team at 18, at 28 they've been in the league a decade. I think its wild when guy that started in the 2007 or 2008 season are retiring. Time flies...

I eye-balled the numbers and I'm pretty sure the Penguins are near top-5 in all of those categories analytically. They're definitely top-3 on defense (only Boston and Tampa are better) and on the PK (only New Jersey was better), and they're around 5th-7th overall when it comes to offense and the PP.

I do get why fans are down on this team, but people make way too big of a deal out of the Penguins bad 3rd line. And frankly, their 3rd line is pretty strong analytically. The Penguins have an absolutely stacked top-6 F and top-4 D with a great 4th line and what appears to be a solid 3rd pair. The 3rd line being McCann with 2 reclamation projects doesn't tank the team.

Again, I think people are evaluating based on name recognition. "Jank and ERod! No way! I wish JR would have signed actual NHL'ers! Who? Well, I'm not sure exactly but someone with <insert average 3rd liner stats which are identical to what Jank and Erod produced>. Ya know, real NHL'ers!"

There was so much shifting around this off season its hard to get a take on who got "better" and who got "worse" at the moment. Roster and stat watching (and even adv stat watching) only tell a percentage of the tale and it's all a lagging indicator and trend-based analyses. Tough to get a read at the moment on what the game by game results will be. For the first time in awhile, I have no idea if they are better or worse than what they were last year. I think roster wise, the top 6 is tits and the defense is magnitudes better (but a large percentage of that is simply JJ not being there). How it pans out against the other teams in the division...woof...who knows.
 
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