Rumor: Trades/Proposals: This Offseason can we transition from the "Wasted Years" to living in the Golden Y

[jeg]

not sure he's been given a fair shake at opportunity given the situations he was thrown in. He played his best hockey with Larsson but most of the time he just played next to the guy who's partner got injured



how is Bear given a free pass while Jones gets the butt end of things

I approve of this message! Jones is not the 7th D like we treat him. Young players can only learn to swim if they get thrown in the water. I don't feel he got enough exposure due to the compressed season

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

not sure he's been given a fair shake at opportunity given the situations he was thrown in. He played his best hockey with Larsson but most of the time he just played next to the guy who's partner got injured



how is Bear given a free pass while Jones gets the butt end of things

Because Ethan Bear has established himself as an regular NHL defenseman. He struggled last year, but did establish himself. Jones was all but gifted a spot, Klefa finished, it was right there and he was just marginal. I get his fancies are super great, but if it translated, he would play more and most consistently, however he doesn't seem to for whatever reason.

Caleb Jones isn't Jeff Petry, because Jeff Petry had warts in a MUCH tougher spot in Edmonton, was WAY more established as an NHL defenseman then Jones has ever been.

 

[NegativeNelly]

Doesn't answer the million dollar question for me with regards to the NMC and the recapture penalty issue

The NHL changed the rules in 2013 which I believe is why there may be some confusion. Old rules and old contracts are subject to recapture penalties. Keith's contract is old and will be subject to recapture for both mutual termination AND retirement. Newer contracts after 2012 are NOT subject to recapture penalties for mutual termination, but they ARE subject to recapture if the player retires. The NMC must be waived for contract termination, which exposes the player to be picked up by another team.

 

[Oilhawks]

just a snip from an article from The Athletic

'As the deadline loomed, Marino’s twin brother pieced together a spreadsheet. It listed every NHL team and how Marino might fit in their system. Paul ran numbers, built depth charts, researched tax rates and calculated travel times in each city. The Oilers were an organization in transition. Chiarelli and McLellan were both gone. And they had a logjam of defensemen."

Chiarelli is a factor but our depth was too. kind of a moot point but the point I am trying to make is don't give up on Jones just yet, we have something there.

The bolded looks tacked on to make it look like Marino didn’t want to move on (which seems like bullshit, all things considered). If Bear was able to win a spot, how come Marino couldn’t? The answer is he didn’t even give the Oilers a chance for him to grab a spot. How many training camps did he attend?

I like Jones but he’s overrated by a contingent of the fan base. I’m also not convinced that he wants to play here long-term.

 

[joestevens29]

I mean at the end of the day isn't Jones gone regardless? Either in trade or to Seattle?

 

[K1984]

All I saw was Jones could tread water at best when Larsson did massively heavy lifting. Which was noticible when Jones played with literally anyone else.

What those values don't show are the major f*** ups directly leading to goals against.

Jones was guilty of those in droves last season. Fixable? Probably, maybe yes. But not a top4 defender like the analytics fundamentalists like to brand him as as a result.

 

[joestevens29]

The bolded looks tacked on to make it look like Marino didn’t want to move on (which seems like bullshit, all things considered). If Bear was able to win a spot, how come Marino couldn’t? The answer is he didn’t even give the Oilers a chance for him to grab a spot. How many training camps did he attend?

I like Jones but he’s overrated by a contingent of the fan base. I’m also not convinced that he wants to play here long-term.

I honestly don't know the answer, but it isn't uncommon for College players not to attend. They are kind of pooched and have to pay for everything on their own.

Especially for late round picks

 

[Oilhawks]

I honestly don't know the answer, but it isn't uncommon for College players not to attend. They are kind of pooched and have to pay for everything on their own.

Especially for late round picks

I don’t know either (not sure if anyone does), but I imagine it’s not many, if any. Don’t recall hearing about him at camp.

 

[KlefDown]

What those values don't show are the major f*** ups directly leading to goals against.

Jones was guilty of those in droves last season. Fixable? Probably, maybe yes. But not a top4 defender like the analytics fundamentalists like to brand him as as a result.

Because Ethan Bear has established himself as an regular NHL defenseman. He struggled last year, but did establish himself. Jones was all but gifted a spot, Klefa finished, it was right there and he was just marginal. I get his fancies are super great, but if it translated, he would play more and most consistently, however he doesn't seem to for whatever reason.

are we forgetting Bear being benched in the last game of the playoffs because he couldn't be trusted and the ONE shift in 3OT he took resulted in a goal against and overall his abysmal season?

giving him 33 games where most of the time he was in different D pairings isn't much of a way to see what you have in a player
two seasons ago, Bear's opportunity came with being paired with Nurse most/all of the season

 

[KlefDown]

I mean at the end of the day isn't Jones gone regardless? Either in trade or to Seattle?

it does seem that way but I hope it doesn't

 

[joestevens29]

I don’t know either (not sure if anyone does), but I imagine it’s not many, if any. Don’t recall hearing about him at camp.

Well I found that he wasn't at rookie camp or regular camp in 15 or 17. Wasn't at 18 camp. Can't find 16 data

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

are we forgetting Bear being benched in the last game of the playoffs because he couldn't be trusted and the ONE shift in 3OT he took resulted in a goal against and overall his abysmal season?

giving him 33 games where most of the time he was in different D pairings isn't much of a way to see what you have in a player
two seasons ago, Bear's opportunity came with being paired with Nurse most/all of the season

No we aren't, at all, we also aren't treating his entire career, where he established himself at the NHL level, as the only thing he's ever done.

It totally did, Jones got to play with rock solid NHL veteran Adam Larsson, one thrived, the other was middling. For reference, Bear thrived (struggled this year no question), Jones was middling.

Like WHY didn't he start the year as the 4LD? It was right there, the year before he was showing promise, again Klefa finished, why wasn't Jones there? Just the coach or did he just no earn that spot? Because I remember him not earning that spot.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Again, and I can't stress this enough, Caleb Jones is Not Jeff Petry.

 

[Oilhawks]

Again, and I can't stress this enough, Caleb Jones is Not Jeff Petry.

He’s not Seth Jones either, who has been an underwhelming player in recent times (though could very well be great again on a better team).

 

[KlefDown]

No we aren't, at all, we also aren't treating his entire career, where he established himself at the NHL level, as the only thing he's ever done.

It totally did, Jones got to play with rock solid NHL veteran Adam Larsson, one thrived, the other was middling. For reference, Bear thrived (struggled this year no question), Jones was middling.

Like WHY didn't he start the year as the 4LD? It was right there, the year before he was showing promise, again Klefa finished, why wasn't Jones there? Just the coach or did he just no earn that spot? Because I remember him not earning that spot.

Bear was far from thriving, your mind is playing games with you.

two years ago, we were way deeper in LHD than we were with RHD and Jones was first up when injuries came around

same can be said as to why Bouchard didn't play as much this year. We had Barrie, Bear, Larsson solidified.

 

[McDNicks17]

not sure he's been given a fair shake at opportunity given the situations he was thrown in. He played his best hockey with Larsson but most of the time he just played next to the guy who's partner got injured



how is Bear given a free pass while Jones gets the butt end of things

The issue there is attributing those numbers to an impact by Jones.

If you look at his individual numbers, you see a guy who struggles a ton in transition and defensively.

Oilers Blueliners: Puck Moving and Puck Transporting

 

[KlefDown]

Again, and I can't stress this enough, Caleb Jones is Not Jeff Petry.

No one is comparing him to be.

we have waited since 2015 for the development of late picks to come to fruition and now when we are on the cusp, we want to dump him for a vet who has 2 years max in him rather than see what we have in said player

 

[Forgot About Drai]

Again, and I can't stress this enough, Caleb Jones is Not Jeff Petry.

Are people saying this? Ive seen way more Bear = Petry comments then Jones = Petry.

I still think Jones has top 4/5 potential. 25 is an age where defensemen take a leap. I think we lose him regardless though.

 

[McShogun99]

When a rumored trade is being laughed at around the league then maybe you need to stop and think about it.

Or just listen to the Edmonton media who keep preaching it because its going to happen.

Keith at 50% retained for a 4th rounder or lower is fine. Giving any sort of asset for him without dumping huge salary is brutal.

Keith at 50% for Neal and a 3rd or 4th. Fine.

Keith (at 100%) for Jones and a pick is a fireable offence.

There shouldn’t be a pick attached to Neal. His contract is able to be bought out, he’s a lot younger and had a decent year pre covid. I wouldn’t doubt if his poor play this year was due to post covid symptoms. Kieth has been bad for numerous seasons now. If anything Chicago should be adding a pick.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

No one is comparing him to be.

we have waited since 2015 for the development of late picks to come to fruition and now when we are on the cusp, we want to dump him for a vet who has 2 years max in him rather than see what we have in said player

I don't think we can wait any longer if that makes any sense. Rather have someone back there with 300+ games and can play. Jones makes a lot of mistakes and he does a lot of good. Mistakes need to simply stop if we are going to go any deeper in the playoffs. The same applies to bear but I think Bear is more worth keeping. Plus LHD deeper than RHD. I wouldn't move him for Keith but I would definitely move him to help out our lack of scoring depth.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Are people saying this? Ive seen way more Bear = Petry comments then Jones = Petry.

I still think Jones has top 4/5 potential. 25 is an age where defensemen take a leap. I think we lose him regardless though.

Why do you think there's so much consternation about about him, Jones, leaving the organization? I agree Bear is much closer to that comparison, but again you can move both as long as you improve and replace.

 

[KlefDown]

Trading Petry the way we did was also stupid and I remember arguing against that also but that was two management eras ago now so it doesn’t really matter

 

[KlefDown]

I don't think we can wait any longer if that makes any sense. Rather have someone back there with 300+ games and can play. Jones makes a lot of mistakes and he does a lot of good. Mistakes need to simply stop if we are going to go any deeper in the playoffs. The same applies to bear but I think Bear is more worth keeping. Plus LHD deeper than RHD. I wouldn't move him for Keith but I would definitely move him to help out our lack of scoring depth.

Trust me, my patience is probably thinner than most around here when it comes to wasting our McDrai window. I just see Jones as a very good player who is really close to putting “it” together

 

[Fourier]

The NHL changed the rules in 2013 which I believe is why there may be some confusion. Old rules and old contracts are subject to recapture penalties. Keith's contract is old and will be subject to recapture for both mutual termination AND retirement. Newer contracts after 2012 are NOT subject to recapture penalties for mutual termination, but they ARE subject to recapture if the player retires. The NMC must be waived for contract termination, which exposes the player to be picked up by another team.

Contracts signed after the 2013 CBA started do not have a recapture penalty. Recapture only applies to legacy deals that are 6 years or more. Other changes were made to prevent the severe back-diving contracts under the new CBA.

 

[McShogun99]

Are people saying this? Ive seen way more Bear = Petry comments then Jones = Petry.

I still think Jones has top 4/5 potential. 25 is an age where defensemen take a leap. I think we lose him regardless though.

The Bear/Petry comparisons are so dumb. Holland is not Mac T and despite his recent struggles, Bear is valued pretty highly by the organization.