Trades and Free Agency - 2022 Off-season

[Kiwi]

Just do what Tampa did.
Hey muzz you have two choices

Accept a trade to wherever we want

We waive you and you have no idea where your playing next year

They aren't going to do that to a guy who's respected in the room, our players aren't going to like that type of treatment of a liked veteran either

Also Tampa sent there elderly defenseman to Nashville, another low tax state and worked with the player, I don't remember them threatening him

We're the Leafs, not the mob

 

[Dekes For Days]

If we're serious about the cup we can't have Engvall as one of the go-to options for these game script conditions.

Engvall was never a "go-to" option. He was 8th in forward ice time. The only reason he has that ranking in 5v5 time (which is negligibly different from 5th) is because our top guys were playing a bunch in all of the other abundant game situations (including non-5v5 ES situations), and the 3rd line got a lot of the 5v5 time in the latter parts of games 1-4 when the games were already decided. In close games, Engvall was far down the list.

It's such a nothingburger.

 

[Havoc]

Engvall was never a "go-to" option. He was 8th in forward ice time. The only reason he has that ranking in 5v5 time (which is negligibly different from 5th) is because our top guys were playing a bunch in all of the other game situations (including non-5v5 ES situations), and the 3rd line got a lot of the 5v5 time in the latter parts of games 1-4 when the games were already decided.

It's such a nothingburger.

Engvalls xGf% most of the games would make you curl into a corner and cry. Hard sell on the nothingburger.

How it comes to be is irrelevant, if those minutes exist on Engvall you found yourself a bottleneck to fix because he got owned in those minutes. You don't have an account for all of those 94 minutes but you know for a fact Engvall was mediocre across the summation of them, so you can't disprove he's not a bottleneck even if you think he isn't one.

Some of you are allergic to getting better.

 

[zeke]

Just do what Tampa did.
Hey muzz you have two choices

Accept a trade to wherever we want

We waive you and you have no idea where your playing next year

tampa just had to throw away a very good #2/3 dman because of their cap plan. sucks for them. huge blow to their team.

why would the Leafs throw away a very similarly good #2/3 dman when they don't have to?

 

[Dekes For Days]

How it comes to be is irrelevant

How it comes to be is very relevant. Engvall ranking high in 5v5 ice time because we're playing him a ton and leaning on him to be a difference maker is very different from him ranking high in 5v5 time merely because our top guys were playing so much in every other situation, and because his line gave our top players time to rest in the latter parts of games that were already decided. In close games like games 5-7, Engvall was far down the list. In overall forward ice time, Engvall was far down he list.

If you have an argument for how he played within his ice time, then make the argument based on that, not making a big deal out of the nothingburger that is his 5v5 forward ice time ranking. And if we're evaluating his play, we should evaluate the entirety of his play, and we shouldn't just look at 5v5 without the context of the game situations he played, and the extreme defensive deployment he received.

Engvall's 5v5 forward ice time ranking was not the reason we lost.

 

[Kiwi]

tampa just had to throw away a very good #2/3 dman because of their cap plan. sucks for them. huge blow to their team.

why would the Leafs throw away a very similarly good #2/3 dman when they don't have to?

They moved him because they were worried about him seriously declining over the next few seasons

We didn't and Muzzin is already managing a back issue before the season has started

See how that works?

Tampa is arguably the best team in the league for managing it's cap so I find it interesting we've got people in here ******* on them after they made an intelligent, proactive cap move after they just got the prime years out of a player and won 2 cups doing so

 

[Knies iT]

Rielly - Liljegren
Muzzin - Brodie
Hague - Giordano/Holl

Rielly - Liljegren
Hague - Brodie
Giordano - Niemela

 

[zeke]

They moved him because they were worried about him seriously declining over the next few seasons

We didn't and Muzzin is already managing a back issue before the season has started

See how that works?

Tampa is arguably the best team in the league for managing it's cap so I find it interesting we've got people in here ******* on them after they made an intelligent, proactive cap move after they just got the prime years out of a player and won 2 cups doing so

They were forced to lose two key players due to capspace. Too bad. Leafs have a similar quality player for much cheaper and signed for much shorter.

Leafs were forced to lose zero key players due to capspace. And don't look like they'll have to lose a key player for Cap reasons for a long while coming.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

It's alarming how easily Engvall is let off the hook because "game script" as you guys termed it (one of you must play fantasy football lol) put him into those minutes. There are no conditions that exist, especially in playoff hockey, that excuses you of being a total tire fire in your minutes. The game moves so quick even one little change can make a world of difference. As someone noted, a +1 differential for Engvall could have made a difference, which is not a demanding ask seeing as he's starting from 0.

Bar is set extremely low if we're content with letting Engvall repeat his performance. The ones against the idea Engvall was a detriment seem vehemently against it so I can only assume they'd give the green light to let Engvall be a 5v5 disaster again since it's a "nothingburger" that won't effect us too greatly.

I will have to agree with Havoc that our core decimated theirs, so the "bottlenecks" for this first round loss exist elsewhere, including goaltending like Fogel pointed out. You don't have to remove Engvall from the team, but it's worth considering dropping him down the depth chart with respects to whose leading the way in 5v5 minutes when it's not core guys.

For instance, it does bother me as stated above that we couldn't juice a little more from JT and Nylander seeing as they don't PK. These two beasts didn't need much extra minutes to change the outcome. If we're not juicing these guys I'd prefer someone else over Engvall first over the boards (As in, if game script causes these minutes to exist, they still need to be well performed minutes, and if they're not, you do have yourself a bottleneck).

 

[123offtheglass]

They aren't going to do that to a guy who's respected in the room, our players aren't going to like that type of treatment of a liked veteran either

Also Tampa sent there elderly defenseman to Nashville, another low tax state and worked with the player, I don't remember them threatening him

We're the Leafs, not the mob

Unless I'm mistaken, I think it came down to either finding him a trade or waiving him.

 

[Havoc]

As in, if game script causes these minutes to exist, they still need to be well performed minutes, and if they're not, you do have yourself a bottleneck.

I am saddened someone had to jump in for me to dumb down something already simple to begin with.

I am choosing to leave on a petty note since the "random bitching" reply deserves nothing less :

Excuse me while I go spend the rest of my evening worshipping Engvall's +0. Emphasis on the "+" for context.

 

[andora]

They moved him because they were worried about him seriously declining over the next few seasons

We didn't and Muzzin is already managing a back issue before the season has started

See how that works?

Tampa is arguably the best team in the league for managing it's cap so I find it interesting we've got people in here ******* on them after they made an intelligent, proactive cap move after they just got the prime years out of a player and won 2 cups doing so

I would bet you 100$ they moved him cause their first options to cut noone wanted

 

[ULF_55]

Just do what Tampa did.
Hey muzz you have two choices

Accept a trade to wherever we want

We waive you and you have no idea where your playing next year

Waivers or Arizona?

Are you sure he wouldn't pick waivers and hoped some NHL team picked him up?

 

[ULF_55]

Why are we bending over to throw away our top prospects and picks for a player that doesn’t even fit our needs, and who has been injured as much as Muzzin?

God I can’t wait for some other team to step up and take this guy off the market. Sick of seeing his name and our best prospects being thrown around…..

I have little to no interest in Chychrun.

My point was Leafs have to move a Muzzin size contract for him.

Why would Muzzin agree to go?

 

[Kiwi]

They were forced to lose two key players due to capspace. Too bad. Leafs have a similar quality player for much cheaper and signed for much shorter.

Leafs were forced to lose zero key players due to capspace. And don't look like they'll have to lose a key player for Cap reasons for a long while coming.

A player in his mid 30's who was significantly worse last season and is already managing a back problem before the season has started after multiple injury ravaged seasons

They also believe they have replacements in house for him

Lucky them

Turning over your lineup and moving players on once they have reached there used by date is a sign of good management, not bad Zeke and it's certainly worked for Tampa

Unless I'm mistaken, I think it came down to either finding him a trade or waiving him.

He had a full no trade I think, he wasn't going to the minors but just remember
They got his prime years, won cups and traded him before he declined with a player in house

That's great business

I would bet you 100$ they moved him cause their first options to cut noone wanted

They aren't fighting with a lot of bad contacts and if you trade them before they become problematic it solves a lot of problems

 

[andora]

They aren't fighting with a lot of bad contacts and if you trade them before they become problematic it solves a lot of problems

which i believe was killorn first choice

 

[123offtheglass]

He had a full no trade I think, he wasn't going to the minors but just remember
They got his prime years, won cups and traded him before he declined with a player in house

That's great business

Full no trade clause but not a no movement clause, they could still send him to the minors.

I agree, it's great business. Acquiring him really did pay off for them.

 

[Menzinger]

I think both are "luxury" we can't afford after this season and lost assets in any case. I'd try to cut my losses, though we might have to add dman at deadline, but we could gain assets for that right now.

In big picture I'd already start building towards playoffs and in that scenario Kerfoot is something we would like to keep.

Thing is Holl/Kerfoot are likely as good as most guys who get moved as depth rentals at the tdl.

Personally I don't see the point of trading a guy for a pick now just to trade the pick in a few months for a guy who may or may not find chemistry with his new team before the playoffs.

I

 

[Shooter2x]

It's alarming how easily Engvall is let off the hook because "game script" as you guys termed it (one of you must play fantasy football lol) put him into those minutes. There are no conditions that exist, especially in playoff hockey, that excuses you of being a total tire fire in your minutes. The game moves so quick even one little change can make a world of difference. As someone noted, a +1 differential for Engvall could have made a difference, which is not a demanding ask seeing as he's starting from 0.

Bar is set extremely low if we're content with letting Engvall repeat his performance. The ones against the idea Engvall was a detriment seem vehemently against it so I can only assume they'd give the green light to let Engvall be a 5v5 disaster again since it's a "nothingburger" that won't effect us too greatly.

I will have to agree with Havoc that our core decimated theirs, so the "bottlenecks" for this first round loss exist elsewhere, including goaltending like Fogel pointed out. You don't have to remove Engvall from the team, but it's worth considering dropping him down the depth chart with respects to whose leading the way in 5v5 minutes when it's not core guys.

For instance, it does bother me as stated above that we couldn't juice a little more from JT and Nylander seeing as they don't PK. These two beasts didn't need much extra minutes to change the outcome. If we're not juicing these guys I'd prefer someone else over Engvall first over the boards (As in, if game script causes these minutes to exist, they still need to be well performed minutes, and if they're not, you do have yourself a bottleneck).

For those of us that defended the Murray trade, its not that appealing to keep re hashing issues that have been addressed. Even if the changes fail, it has been addressed. Engvall bombing his usage moves up the ladder now in terms of things that stand out now that the team is forming and we move on to different things.

This exciting internal competition puts it under the microscope even further so its shameful watching people try to play police over this topic.

You bomb your usage and you're not a core player, sorry you're not safe.

 

[zeke]

A player in his mid 30's who was significantly worse last season and is already managing a back problem before the season has started after multiple injury ravaged seasons

They also believe they have replacements in house for him

Lucky them

Turning over your lineup and moving players on once they have reached there used by date is a sign of good management, not bad Zeke and it's certainly worked for Tampa

Tampa Bay was forced to lose their 2nd best dman and 4th best forward for nothing this offseason, without any real replacements.

The leafs, on the other hand, lost only their 6th or 7th best forward and probably replaced him effectively.

The leafs also have fewer longterm committments and much less money committed to 35+ years.

There is zero way to spin that as good cap management for Tampa and bad cap management for the Leafs.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

What game script lead to losing game 4 in the first 10 minutes riding Engvalls line.

He's addition by subtraction if they plan to give him same importance and if you can upgrade depth with zero cap problems you should do it.

 

[Kiwi]

which i believe was killorn first choice

MvDonagh was going one way or another, they have Sergachev who lines up with there window

Full no trade clause but not a no movement clause, they could still send him to the minors.

I agree, it's great business. Acquiring him really did pay off for them.

They worked with him and got him to a non tax state, if you were moving Muzzin that's how I think you try doing it rather than make an enemy of him

Thing is Holl/Kerfoot are likely as good as most guys who get moved as depth rentals at the tdl.

Personally I don't see the point of trading a guy for a pick now just to trade the pick in a few months for a guy who may or may not find chemistry with his new team before the playoffs.

I

I'd prefer not trading anybody and waiting to see if we get somebody on LTIR early in the season

Everybody we're discussing is a useful player

Tampa Bay was forced to lose their 2nd best dman and 4th best forward for nothing this offseason, without any real replacements.

The leafs, on the other hand, lost only their 6th or 7th best forward and probably replaced him effectively.

The leafs also have fewer longterm committments and much less money committed to 35+ years.

There is zero way to spin that as good cap management for Tampa and bad cap management for the Leafs.

Sergachev is the replacement and I remember us losing Hyman for nothing, our 5th best forward the season before last

They also won 2 cups before they threw those guys overboard for cap reasons, we toss guys overboard and can't even win a god damn round

They have more guys signed longer because there core is slightly older than ours, but I'd remind you that Point, Hedman, Stamkos and the rest of there core are tied up to pretty cost effective long term deals and our guys are just about to come up so come crow to me about our awesome contracts after Matthews, Marner and Nylander are resigned because I'm willing to bett we are about to reset the market again

 

[rocketman588]

Unless I'm mistaken, I think it came down to either finding him a trade or waiving him.

Also had the waiver pick up arranged with the jackets pretty savage

 

[andora]

MvDonagh was going one way or another, they have Sergachev who lines up with there

Well with that contract to sergy he had to yeah.. i think that deal was a bit of a surprise .. at least in my opinion

He has the tools to live up to it

 

[Duke16]

I think it logically ends up being Holl that gets moved, as he's the most likely player to be pushed out of the healthy lineup who isn't making healthy scratch money. Not even a knock on him necessarily, it's just a deep D core. Ideally the Leafs don't also lose Mete on waivers in a similar time frame

If need be, there are probably depth swaps out there to land a serviceable depth guy (preferably one who already cleared waivers) to buy an awkward period of time where we have another option while waiting for Liljegren/Benn to get healthy.