Speculation: Trade Speculation / Untouchable Players Pt. III

[pensfan71]

and apparently PAP is held out of the game tn

 

[jmelm]

Anaheim is having their own blue-line logjam, they just extended Fistric. They really don't need D men all that badly now.

Fistric is a bottom pairing Dman at best on ANA. He doesn't obviate the need for a top-4 Dman, a really high end 3rd pairing guy with upside, or a high level prospect who can give them depth now and possibly work his way up to the 2nd pair within a year or two or three. If they were looking for that type of player, Despres or Dumoulin would fill that criteria.

Stewart ain't a fit there. He's a guy who's best off the rush and with a playmaking center feeding him pucks. He's not a complete player, no one advocating bringing him here is arguing that he is. But what he's good at, would be maximized here. And addresses holes up front in terms of size, speed and Sid's RW.

If the price wasn't absurd, I'd pay to see what he could bring here.

St. Louis' depth on defense is vastly overrated. Jordan Leopold is closer to healthy scratch material than a #5 on a contending team. Shattenkirk was average to **** in the playoffs last year, and played very protected minutes. And Jackman isn't anchoring your 2nd pairing.

St. Louis is a damn good team b/c their forwards play well in all three zones. They're committed defensively.

If I was DA, I'd consider Despres for Stewart. He could provide legit competition for their 5-6 spot. And/or give them flexibility in terms of trading a D-man for help at center.

I'd rather trade Orpik for Stewart, and that might be more to STL liking because he is an experience NHL Dman who is probably a better fit to help them THIS season if they think it's their year to go for it. Despres would be a better fit for them only if they were happy with the guys they have now, but were looking for someone who could step in and/or take over a bigger role in 1-2 years.

And because STL is a cheap team (i.e. not a cap team) and would want to shed some salary, they may be happy to trade Stewart for Orpik straight up for financial reasons, because Orpik doesn't have any term left on his deal after this season. It's possible this could be a factor.

And I agree with you: I have big concerns with Stewart or with Setoguchi. But both of these guys are so intriguing because of their potential upside and fit with our team that it would be worth the gamble, now or in free agency, if the price was right. To me, that's still a Plan B option, as opposed to just trading for a higher-tier young player who we know is can't-miss.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Three reasons for me...

1. RW
2. Gets his points on 3rd line
3. 35 percent of MMs points on PP only 22 percent for Stewart
4. Better fit playing style wise

I would not mind Stewart if that's the best we could do, but I would not want to give up Despres for him. His warts and cap hit make him less desirable this year especially. For a guy in the doghouse, I'd prefer to just send futures, or Orpik + futures, which could work. Works fine cap-wise too, even with Pyatt up:

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Chris Stewart ($4.150m)
Beau Bennett ($0.900m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Jussi Jokinen ($2.100m) / Brandon Sutter ($2.067m) / Jayson Megna ($0.925m)
Tanner Glass ($1.100m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Craig Adams ($0.700m)
Taylor Pyatt ($1.550m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m)
Kris Letang ($3.500m) / Rob Scuderi ($3.375m)
Matt Niskanen ($2.300m) / Olli Maatta ($0.894m)
Deryk Engelland ($0.567m) /
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Tomas Vokoun ($2.000m)
LTIR
Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2013-14 crunched using simulation date of 2014-01-30)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $897,500

 

[TimmyD]

I just saw an article on bleacher report saying that a trade that would make sense for the Pens would be Sutter AND a FIRST for Sam Gagner... Can anyone explain to me how that makes the pens a better team, or could someone be kind enough to let me in on what those writers were smoking

 

[Michael8771*]

If we had to give Up Orpik + for Stewart, sign me up!

 

[Michael8771*]

I just saw an article on bleacher report saying that a trade that would make sense for the Pens would be Sutter AND a FIRST for Sam Gagner... Can anyone explain to me how that makes the pens a better team, or could someone be kind enough to let me in on what those writers were smoking

That's a terrible idea!

 

[JTG]

It's amazing to me how people would pass on Moulson, a guy who has scored 30G 3x when paired with a top C... and trade for Stewart, who has scored 30G zero times, and once again finds himself "in the doghouse" despite getting tons of opportunity to play with good players in STL the last couple years. He might be the most undeservedly romanticized player on this board since... ever.

Have you guys looked at his actual numbers? While a couple seasons were shortened he's turning into a perennial 20/20 type guy. He's anything but a go-to scoring winger. I don't care who is centering him. Would he be an improvement over everyone on our bottom six and Jussi? Yes. Is he worth a big price tag? No.

Also: who do we have that makes the Blues a better team when they subtract Stewart? None of the guys we're talking about. Orpik or Despres do not make them better. I don't see that the Blues need anything from this team, to be honest. With the Blues the only thing that makes any sense is a top notch long-term asset for one of theirs.

I'd rather pay big and get Tarasenko (Maatta + 1st?) then give a solid piece of our puzzle like Despres for Stewart. Gotta give to get but the point is to get someone who is as close to a sure thing, long-term asset as possible. Chris Stewart ain't it.

I think people who comment on Moulson really underrate him. He's not a passenger on a line, nor is he an after thought for a defense. Putting him with Sid would require the opposition to always have their eyes on Moulson because he knows where to score goals, and Sid would be able to find him. Not saying he's a perfect fit for Sid, but I think he'd do pretty damn well here.

I'm not sure where all the preconceived notions have come from in regards to what kind of player can play with Sid or Geno. There's numerous ways to get things done...not just 1 way.

A Stewart trade would remind me a lot of the Neal trade. Neal should have never been available for a guy like Goligoski but he was slumping and in the doghouse in Dallas. People down there called him too streaky, lazy and many other things. He definitely seemed to have worn out his welcome. Some of those bad qualities Neal has rear their ugly head from time to time even with the Pens but he's still lethal when paired with a big time center. I think the same may be true with Stewart if he ever gets that chance. He just isn't as needed on a team with quality wing depth like St. Louis seems to have. Unfortunately it doesn't look like we're very good trading partners.

The biggest difference I have seen between Neal and Stewart when I have watched them both...I never saw Neal stop moving his feet in Dallas. He'd be lazy in terms of playing a 2 way game, and I think the fact he's not a prototypical power forward with his size bothered some people too. But I don't think he lacked effort.

I have watched Stewart and honestly thought he lacked effort. Stewart is a guy though, much like a guy like Buff was in Chicago. He'd disappear, but when the dude was on and feeling it...unstoppable with his size and strength. It's just motivating him and getting him to that point.

 

[TimmyD]

That's a terrible idea!

Right? I would have no issue dealing Sutter and even the first, but it would have to be for an immediate upgrade on the wing and a long term solution at that. But Sam freakin Gagner??? Come on now, I wouldn't even trade Tanner Glass for him

 

[Captain Hook]

I think people who comment on Moulson really underrate him. He's not a passenger on a line, nor is he an after thought for a defense. Putting him with Sid would require the opposition to always have their eyes on Moulson because he knows where to score goals, and Sid would be able to find him. Not saying he's a perfect fit for Sid, but I think he'd do pretty damn well here.

I'm not sure where all the preconceived notions have come from in regards to what kind of player can play with Sid or Geno. There's numerous ways to get things done...not just 1 way.

The only question I have with Moulson is his speed and whether he can keep up with Sid. Moulson's hands and finishing skills are far better than Dupuis or anybody else Sid has regularly played with in a long time.

 

[Common Sense]

I just saw an article on bleacher report saying that a trade that would make sense for the Pens would be Sutter AND a FIRST for Sam Gagner... Can anyone explain to me how that makes the pens a better team, or could someone be kind enough to let me in on what those writers were smoking

I'll take just a little bit of whatever they're smoking.

 

[JTG]

The only question I have with Moulson is his speed and whether he can keep up with Sid. Moulson's hands and finishing skills are far better than Dupuis or anybody else Sid has regularly played with in a long time.

In recent years, how many goals are created off the rush with Sid though? A lot of the goals are done by cycling and things like that. More goals are being scored off the rush this season with that line mainly because Kunitz is playing out of his mind. But usually that line has worked the puck in the offensive zone to score goals. Moulson knows where to go in those situations better than just about anyone in the league.

If any line scores off the rush, it's Geno's

 

[cheesedanish87]

Has Moulson ever played RW? i feel like getting Moulson would be like Iginla all over again,

 

[Captain Hook]

In recent years, how many goals are created off the rush with Sid though? A lot of the goals are done by cycling and things like that. More goals are being scored off the rush this season with that line mainly because Kunitz is playing out of his mind. But usually that line has worked the puck in the offensive zone to score goals. Moulson knows where to go in those situations better than just about anyone in the league.

If any line scores off the rush, it's Geno's

Good point. I guess it depends on the price to get Moulson. How much would you be willing to give for him?

 

[Sutter16]

I'd do a big deal for Moulson and Ott, given that at least one of them re-sign here. Moulson is 3X 30 goal scorer. Any time you can add that to your team, you do it. That would make our PP2 a lot better with a player like him on it. He just scores goals. Now I'd rather see Steve Ott brought in then Moulson. Ott is EXACTLY what we need on this team. I'd play him mostly on Sutter's LW but you could throw him up on the LW with Geno and Neal when need be. Physical, can play center, pain the ass to play against, pest. He's one of the top guys we should go after. The biggest question is who would we give up? Well I'd do Despres+ a conditional 2014 1st+ I don't want to move him but Niskanen+ 2015 1st/2nd or Josh Archibald.They have a boatload of picks and for a rebuilding team, that's huge. They need scoring but, if they move Miller they'll get at least 1 young W prospect in return.

 

[TimmyD]

I'll take just a little bit of whatever they're smoking.

Indeed sir lol, I could not believe that was the proposal. The title made it even better, cuz it was "Potential Trades That Make Perfect Sense," and I was like ummmmmmm how does this make sense for the Penguins?

 

[mpp9]

In recent years, how many goals are created off the rush with Sid though? A lot of the goals are done by cycling and things like that. More goals are being scored off the rush this season with that line mainly because Kunitz is playing out of his mind. But usually that line has worked the puck in the offensive zone to score goals. Moulson knows where to go in those situations better than just about anyone in the league.

If any line scores off the rush, it's Geno's

Sid's line hasn't created off the rush b/c it can't. Kunitz isn't cut out to be a puck carrier. And Dupuis is far worse at it. The opposition keeps Sid from gaining speed through the neutral zone, and that line then is forced to dump and create from behind the goal line.

That's a reason to trade for a guy who can help Sid in that regard. Not for adding Moulson. Who is absolutely closer to a leech than a genuinely creative offensive player.

 

[JTG]

Good point. I guess it depends on the price to get Moulson. How much would you be willing to give for him?

2nd round pick. Oh wait...

Sid's line hasn't created off the rush b/c it can't. Kunitz isn't cut out to be a puck carrier. And Dupuis is far worse at it. The opposition keeps Sid from gaining speed through the neutral zone, and that line then is forced to dump and create from behind the goal line.

That's a reason to trade for a guy who can help Sid in that regard. Not for adding Moulson. Who is absolutely closer to a leech than a genuinely creative offensive player.

That line wouldn't score goals off the rush even if all 3 had the skill to carry the puck. That's not how Sid plays the game. That's sort of why he and Hossa didn't mesh that well. Sid likes going to work...Hossa likes coming down and shooting.

And aren't you one of the ones pumping Stewart's tires? Is he a genuinely creative offensive player? The team doesn't need creative offensive players. The team needs guys who can be relied upon when games start to matter to produce. Guys who have high end goal scoring ability. Guys who need to be defended on a consistent basis. Moulson would take eyes off of Sid because he has the reputation as an elite goal scorer.

Moulson would do just fine with Crosby.

 

[mpp9]

2nd round pick. Oh wait...



That line wouldn't score goals off the rush even if all 3 had the skill to carry the puck. That's not how Sid plays the game. That's sort of why he and Hossa didn't mesh that well. Sid likes going to work...Hossa likes coming down and shooting.

And aren't you one of the ones pumping Stewart's tires? Is he a genuinely creative offensive player? The team doesn't need creative offensive players. The team needs guys who can be relied upon when games start to matter to produce. Guys who have high end goal scoring ability. Guys who need to be defended on a consistent basis. Moulson would take eyes off of Sid because he has the reputation as an elite goal scorer.

Moulson would do just fine with Crosby.

If we're going to nitpick players that can play with Crosby. Moulson can't skate man. So DB wouldn't play him with Sid.

And I'd like to see Stewart there b/c his greatest quality is creating off the rush. Using his speed to push defenders back and unloading his howitzer of a shot. But he needs the space an elite center can create for him to do that.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Matt Moulson would help us blow out teams with bad to average defense. He would put up an assload of regular season points and even score a lot against teams like the Islanders in the playoffs. He wouldn't help any more than Dupuis does against teams with defenses that can slow down Sid though.

 

[Cherpak]

I just saw an article on bleacher report saying that a trade that would make sense for the Pens would be Sutter AND a FIRST for Sam Gagner... Can anyone explain to me how that makes the pens a better team, or could someone be kind enough to let me in on what those writers were smoking

That almost made me vomit in my mouth a little...

 

[mpp9]

Matt Moulson would help us blow out teams with bad to average defense. He wouldn't help any more than Dupuis does against teams with defenses that can slow down Sid.

Some people apparently think Sid not consistently creating off the rush is a matter of choice, not circumstance. He likes to grind up on dem boards.

 

[Michael8771*]

That almost made me vomit in my mouth a little...

Take a number.

 

[Cherpak]

Take a number.

I'll take #15. Its always been my baseball and hockey jersey number.

 

[Captain Hook]

Has Moulson ever played RW? i feel like getting Moulson would be like Iginla all over again,

I can't ever remember him playing RW with the Isles. I do believe he played some RW with the Kings but that was before he really broke out and became the player he is today.

 

[Captain Hook]

Matt Moulson would help us blow out teams with bad to average defense. He would put up an assload of regular season points and even score a lot against teams like the Islanders in the playoffs. He wouldn't help any more than Dupuis does against teams with defenses that can slow down Sid though.

We don't know what Sid and Moulson would do against certain playoff defenses. Saying they would suck means as much as saying they would light it up. It's just a guess either way. I know Moulson didn't play well for the Isles last year in the playoffs but it was one playoff series and he had zero playoff experience before that. We really shouldn't judge him too much based on that.

My issue with Dupuis is that he has average to bad hands and isn't a very good or dangerous shooter. Too many glorious chances get flubbed with him. Moulson is much more dangerous as a finisher.