Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals PART XXXV

[Samsquanch]

Jeez... I guess I forgot who I was dealing with ... zero comedy/denial .. I just "wrongfully" assumed you understood we were debating acquiring him early to sign for the 2022 season. My bad.. I should have know better and reexplained every thread above in my response. I though we could skip along a little quicker...

My point stands - I'm not paying much for a player who is only going to help us when he is 35 and more than likely 36 and 37.

Whatever you say man

And I guess my point stands that as of today, there are still like 120+ games of regular season hockey left to be played before Giroux turns 35yrs old - and I feel like he could greatly help the Senators in all areas between now and that point in time.

And that he would even continue to help us after the magical clock strikes 35yrs, and he forgets how to play as dementia sets in...

Click to read more...

 

[Neiler]

For me, the biggest thing a guy like Giroux brings is legit veteran leadership for Norris and Pinto.

Right now they are learning from Chris Tierney. Chris Tierney is the only veteran centre on the team who can give advice to Norris and Pinto. Chris Tierney. I can't say it enough. Chris Tierney is the one providing guidance to Norris and Pinto. Chris Tierney doesn't have an elite hockey skill in his own universe, and he's the one helping develop Norris and Pinto. Chris f***ing Tierney.


Even if the Sens don't contend for a Cup within the 2-3 years that Giroux would realistically be here, his guidance and leadership for the two most important centres in the organization would be valuable almost beyond measure.

If the Giroux rumour is true, or even half true, the Sens should be all over this like my fat arse is with my kid's halloween candy.

This is actually a great point. I'm not the biggest proponent of paying assets for Giroux but Zorf is right. These kids who we want to be our next decade are getting tips from a guy who enters the o-zone along the boards, stops to look for someone and then usually turns over the puck.

For a very similar reason I think it is vital that Zaitsev is sent far away and replaced with a two-ish year term 2RD who is stable as soon as possible. All signs point to Sanderson walking into the 2LD role by the end of the year and Zaitsev would be his current partner this year and beyond.

Yikes.

 

[bashbros32]

I think we have a glaring hole at RW, need help in the dot and I don’t see internal replacements coming on the near horizon. Other than Florida the Atlantic big boys are starting to show signs of finally aging and loss of depth. I don’t think we are a playoff team this year but I think we need to start patching the obvious deficiencies.

2nd line RW
2nd pair D
Face off proficiency

Top 6 players are hard to find.

I remember a few days ago I got told off either here or on reddit that Giroux doesn't and has never played RW... if this is true, and we still acquire him, do we play him there anyways while having him take defensive zone faceoffs? What is the consensus on that?

also Stützle is confirmed at not waning to play C at an NHL level?

if so I also have us with 3 major holes

top 6 wing
top 6 faceoff ace C
2nd pair RD

I kinda think we could end up filling the C position at the draft... and if thats the case the idea of acquiring Giroux becomes even more enticing...

Tkachuk - Norris - Batherson
Stützle - Pinto - FREE AGENT
Giroux - DRAFT - Brown
Formenton - Paul - White/Watson

Chabot - Zub
Sanderson - FREE AGENT/Holden/Zaitsev
Brannstrom/MDZ/Holden - Holden/JBD/Thomson/Zaitsev

Edit: I just did some checking and I may want Giroux as just a straight up center... as mentioned above he would be a much better mentor than Tierney... and as it stands Giroux has taken more faceoffs than everyone but Norris on our team, he also has 12% better record than our #1C @61% currently.

Tkachuk - Norris - Batherson
Stützle - Giroux - Brown
Formenton - Pinto - White
XXXX - Paul - Watson

 

[Samsquanch]

I remember a few days ago I got told off either here or on reddit that Giroux doesn't and has never played RW...

Seems pretty harsh for asking a legit question

Giroux absolutely does play RW. Hasnt played C for a few years on a consistent basis. And he shoots right, so even if hes playing LW at times (which I dont believe he is) - he can obviously play the RW if he needs to.

 

[bashbros32]

Seems pretty harsh for asking a legit question

Giroux absolutely does play RW. Hasnt played C for a few years on a consistent basis. And he shoots right, so even if hes playing LW at times (which I dont believe he is) - he can obviously play the RW if he needs to.

idk man between being told by a "Flyers fan" that hes never done it, Hockey Reference listing him as "C/LW" and Daily Faceoff listing Philly's lineup as Giroux - Couturier - Konecny I tend to start believing it.

 

[Samsquanch]

idk man between being told by a "Flyers fan" that hes never done it, Hockey Reference listing him as "C/LW" and Daily Faceoff listing Philly's lineup as Giroux - Couturier - Konecny I tend to start believing it.

Could be the case. Seems like Voracek played on his off-wing too there so who knows, maybe thats how they like doing it in Philly.

Not something I would be too concerned about though tbh. Im sure that he and Stutzle could figure it out together on the 2nd line as wingers.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Would love to add a top 2 line center (eg. Giroux) to push Pinto to the 3rd line center position. I think he could establish himself as one of the best 3rd line centers in the league like Cirelli has in Tampa.

Go into next season with a forward group of:

Stutzle - Norris - Batherson
Tkachuk - Giroux - Sokolov
Paul - Pinto - Brown (could be one of the best shutdown lines in the league)
Formenton - Kelly - Watson

 

[OD99]

Would love to add a top 2 line center (eg. Giroux) to push Pinto to the 3rd line center position. I think he could establish himself as one of the best 3rd line centers in the league like Cirelli has in Tampa.

Go into next season with a forward group of:

Stutzle - Norris - Batherson
Tkachuk - Giroux - Sokolov
Paul - Pinto - Brown (could be one of the best shutdown lines in the league)
Formenton - Kelly - Watson

I like the idea of getting CG and those lines would be fine, especially the Pinto 3rd line but why move BT from Norris and Bath? They are amazing together and think Timmy could jive with GG too.

Just curious for discussion sake.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I like the idea of getting CG and those lines would be fine, especially the Pinto 3rd line but why move BT from Norris and Bath? They are amazing together and think Timmy could jive with GG too.

Just curious for discussion sake.

Either option I'd be fine with, but you may be right that Stutzle and Tkachuk should be switched.

 

[ATdaisuki]

I think you're missing my point. There's a big difference between paying a bonus in advance, and trading for a player after his bonus is paid. It's like the Leon's Don't Pay a Cent Event. We get Mitch for a year, and then we pay him. If Eug wanted to pay it in 2-week increments to himself until it's due next July, he could do that. That is functionally equivalent to paying a player without a bonus, but he'd save money because he could earn a return on that cash until the payment is due.

I'm assuming the reason we don't pay bonuses is that Melnyk doesn't want to pay in advance for cash flow reasons. I'll admit that there might be some other reasons to not want bonuses (lockout protection? Insurance?). But if it's just about when the money is paid, it's a complete non-issue for trading for a guy like Marner after that bonus is paid.

Certainly whatever those other reasons are it wouldn't be enough to offset the benefit of getting a 100-point player for Batherson type dollars (if we trade him before his last bonus payment) or Tkachuk type dollars (if we keep him for the length of the contract).

I'm not sure they'd get the returns you're suggesting. Those cap hits are going to scare off a lot of potential buyers and drive down the returns.

There are tons of creative ways to structure a contract that would allow us to give out bonuses if we really wanted to. We have reduced salary year after year to "save" for a year in which we give out a bonus (example: year 1 - 10 million in salary, year 2 - 5 million in salary, year 3 - 3 million in salary + 7 million bonus). On an escalating deal, we could have the additional salary paid in bonuses (look at the Batherson deal, but the raises in salary are bonuses instead), or introduce a split of salary and bonus later in the deal (Look at Brady's contract, but later years we slowly turn more of the salary into bonuses). There are more ways it could be done too. But we don't. We have evidence of not giving out or avoiding bonuses. It was rumored that we could have saved 200k cap per season on Brady if we gave out bonuses and ended up giving no bonuses and taking on the extra cap hit. There no bonuses in any year of the contracts we've given out when they could have easily been structured in a way to allow for at least some bonuses.

Yes, I get what you're saying, but we clearly avoid them.

Toronto doesn't have to trade these guys. They also haven't asked for a trade. That's why the price wouldn't be low regardless of the cap hit. If they're moved, it'll be for one elite piece in a position they need or two high end pieces. We do not currently have a lot of proven talent, so the prices would be higher from us. Marner is a potential 100 point player and Tavares is a 75-95 point center. There's no such thing as buying low on those guys unless their contract is expiring and they're looking to move on, there's a dispute between them and the team, or they're severely injured.

 

[aragorn]

Why do people want to break up the top line when they have been our best line & are starting to dominate at times in games? There is nothing wrong with Ottawa's top line & it should stay intact. It's because of the Pinto injury that the 2nd line needs some work & although IMO Paul & C. Brown have been doing very well on the 2nd line, it's Stutzle who has not been scoring that has hurt that line. Once he starts scoring that 2nd line should be fine too & hopefully Pinto comes back soon healthy.

That leaves us with the 3rd line & although Ennis is a jitterbug that people love to see he doesn't have enough results offensively to keep him there. IMO Sokolov would be the best replacement, but since they have too many one way contracts at the moment we may have to wait until the TDL before he gets his opportunity. Formenton - Pinto - Sokolov 3rd line would probably be the best 3rd line we have dressed this yr. The 4th line is a hogepoge of assorted drifters & AHL players at the moment but once we get Watson back & a couple of guys get pushed down the roster that line will improve as well. The defence on the other hand will need more work & time to repair but they also need top notch goaltending to stay in games & win games.

 

[Golden_Jet]

There are tons of creative ways to structure a contract that would allow us to give out bonuses if we really wanted to. We have reduced salary year after year to "save" for a year in which we give out a bonus (example: year 1 - 10 million in salary, year 2 - 5 million in salary, year 3 - 3 million in salary + 7 million bonus). On an escalating deal, we could have the additional salary paid in bonuses (look at the Batherson deal, but the raises in salary are bonuses instead), or introduce a split of salary and bonus later in the deal (Look at Brady's contract, but later years we slowly turn more of the salary into bonuses). There are more ways it could be done too. But we don't. We have evidence of not giving out or avoiding bonuses. It was rumored that we could have saved 200k cap per season on Brady if we gave out bonuses and ended up giving no bonuses and taking on the extra cap hit. There no bonuses in any year of the contracts we've given out when they could have easily been structured in a way to allow for at least some bonuses.

Yes, I get what you're saying, but we clearly avoid them.

Toronto doesn't have to trade these guys. They also haven't asked for a trade. That's why the price wouldn't be low regardless of the cap hit. If they're moved, it'll be for one elite piece in a position they need or two high end pieces. We do not currently have a lot of proven talent, so the prices would be higher from us. Marner is a potential 100 point player and Tavares is a 75-95 point center. There's no such thing as buying low on those guys unless their contract is expiring and they're looking to move on, there's a dispute between them and the team, or they're severely injured.

Not sure if that contract allowed in CBA, cannot be more than a certain % difference in any year between salary and AAV. Like you said we don’t generally give out bonuses.

 

[ATdaisuki]

Not sure if that contract allowed in CBA, cannot be more than a certain % difference in any year between salary and AAV. Like you said we don’t generally give out bonuses.

Yup, I had the rule remembered incorrectly. On top of that, the rule I remembered incorrectly was also the old rule. It's wasn't "no more than a 50% decrease year-to-year", it was "no more than 50% difference between the highest and lowest salary years". The maximum variance between adjacent years was 35%. Now it's no more than a 25% variance and the minimum year cannot be less than 60% of the highest year.

We can still do something similar: Year 1 - 10 mil salary, year 2 - 7.5 salary, year 3 - 6 mil salary with 3.375 mil bonus.

With the current rules, it definitely makes it harder to structure this way and make it enticing, but I also mentioned two other ways the contract could be structured to accommodate bonuses that we're clearly not using.

 

[Sweatred]

Whatever you say man

And I guess my point stands that as of today, there are still like 120+ games of regular season hockey left to be played before Giroux turns 35yrs old - and I feel like he could greatly help the Senators in all areas between now and that point in time.

And that he would even continue to help us after the magical clock strikes 35yrs, and he forgets how to play as dementia sets in...

No one debates that extending CG until he is 37 years old could help us - the question is whether it’s worth it to pay the TDL asking price for 20 games in a non playoff season ahead of his UFA.

I suggest paying Boucher (or any first) for those 20 games is a bad decision.

 

[Samsquanch]

No one debates that extending CG until he is 37 years old could help us - the question is whether it’s worth it to pay the TDL asking price for 20 games in a non playoff season ahead of his UFA.

I suggest paying Boucher (or any first) for those 20 games is a bad decision.

I would argue that if its even possible, like if Philly ever puts the option on the table, and Giroux is down with getting traded home to the Sens mid-season (and then extending his contract here immediately) - then it would be ultra-prudent for the Sens to jump all over that before anyone changes their mind about it. Or before another team swoops in.

Ottawa fans should not just assume that he can be signed as a UFA, imo. While we do seemingly have one of the inside tracks on signing him beyond this seasons - so much can happen between now and the time he turns UFA.

You just dont let the opportunity to improve your team by that much slip away, and passively wait/pray that it just falls on your lap sometime later on... Not by my playbook anyways. Not for a team with the prestige level (or lack thereof) of the Ottawa Senators - we dont get that luxury.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I would argue that if its even possible, like if Philly ever puts the option on the table, and Giroux is down with getting traded home to the Sens mid-season (and then extending his contract here immediately) - then it would be ultra-prudent for the Sens to jump all over that before anyone changes their mind about it. Or before another team swoops in.

Ottawa fans should not just assume that he can be signed as a UFA, imo. While we do seemingly have one of the inside tracks on signing him beyond this seasons - so much can happen between now and the time he turns UFA.

You just dont let the opportunity to improve your team by that much slip by and passively wait for it to come to you later on. Not by my playbook anyways. Not for a team with the prestige level (or lackthereof) of the Ottawa Senators - we dont get that luxury.

Why would we gamble on him re-signing, what if he doesn’t, and we give up picks or prospects, we look like fools at this stage of a rebuild.

 

[Samsquanch]

Why would we gamble on him re-signing, what if he doesn’t, and we give up picks or prospects, we look like fools at this stage of a rebuild.

Because we wouldn't?

You realize that you can negotiate these things before a trade happens, right? Like Mark Stone did with the VGK.

Again my point is that if we can do it - we should do it. Im not trying to debate the likelihood of it happening...No point in going down that road imo.

There are people here though that would say no even if CG (an extended one) and Philly both said yes...

 

[Ice-Tray]

I would argue that if its even possible, like if Philly ever puts the option on the table, and Giroux is down with getting traded home to the Sens mid-season (and then extending his contract here immediately) - then it would be ultra-prudent for the Sens to jump all over that before anyone changes their mind about it. Or before another team swoops in.

Ottawa fans should not just assume that he can be signed as a UFA, imo. While we do seemingly have one of the inside tracks on signing him beyond this seasons - so much can happen between now and the time he turns UFA.

You just dont let the opportunity to improve your team by that much slip away, and passively wait/pray that it just falls on your lap sometime later on... Not by my playbook anyways. Not for a team with the prestige level (or lack thereof) of the Ottawa Senators - we dont get that luxury.

He has a NMC, no one is swooping in to pick him up in a trade. If he is ok going to Ottawa, great, see you in the summer. All of these ‘he may not sign as a UFA in the summer so we better trade for him now’ arguments are seriously flawed.

First, he has to waive to be traded here. If he is willing to be traded here, then that would be a good indicator that he would also be willing to sign here for free in the summer.

Second, if we trade for him, we STILL have to sign him as a pending UFA either in the remaining months of the season, or in the summer. Either way we still have to convince the guy to sign with us for next season.

Sure, we’d have a few months of exclusivity to negotiate, which could be handy, but that could also backfire if he has his fill with the hometown team (box checked, now time to chase a cup). In my opinion that ‘chance’ is not even remotely worth Boucher, or our first rounder this draft, like laughably not.

I am completely against getting the idea of falling in love with the idea that we need CG to ‘vastly improve’ our roster this season, or that he’s going to raise the prestige level. He won’t, he would be a nice veteran add in the twilight of is career, but he isn’t going to outshine any of the kids in Ottawa, outside of perhaps is friends and family.

He is absolutely a potential add that would be awesome to make, that should without question be done in the summer when we don’t have to give up a single asset, let alone a first round pick in a deep draft, or a current developing top 10 pick. I doubt CG would even want us to help out a potential rival at his new team’s expense, just for a handful more games.

Patience is key, and patience here is a no brainer.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Because we wouldn't?

You realize that you can negotiate these things before a trade happens, right? Like Mark Stone did with the VGK.

Again my point is that if we can do it - we should do it. Im not trying to debate the likelihood of it happening...No point in going down that road imo.

There are people here though that would say no even if CG (an extended one) and Philly both said yes...

Again, if he is interested in signing an extension immediately, why in the world wouldn’t we just wait until summer since he clearly is interested and wiling to sign here at that point. He has a NMC so he cant simply be traded anywhere else.

I mean I would give Philly a second rounder if they are out of the running at the TDL, for an extended CG, just to smooth the process and let CG leave Philly with everyone feeling good, but it would be a terrible move to give up a significant asset for 20 games of a season that we don’t need him here for.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Giroux this Giroux that, he'd be legendary.

But there is absolutely no way in hell we should have anyone on our current d-lineup, save Zub, that should be with Sanderson. No way. We must sign a competent effective RD who's at the level of someone like Larsson/Murphy at worst next off-season(or via trade).

Furthermore, if we are in slight playoff contention by end of December, and still no one outside of top 4 truly looks worth 2nd pairing duty, we should go out and trade for that top 4 defender. Reasoning: D.J. will run Chabot and Zub to the ground to keep us winning games and fight a difficult uphill battle.

 

[Sweatred]

I would argue that if its even possible, like if Philly ever puts the option on the table, and Giroux is down with getting traded home to the Sens mid-season (and then extending his contract here immediately) - then it would be ultra-prudent for the Sens to jump all over that before anyone changes their mind about it. Or before another team swoops in.

Ottawa fans should not just assume that he can be signed as a UFA, imo. While we do seemingly have one of the inside tracks on signing him beyond this seasons - so much can happen between now and the time he turns UFA.

You just dont let the opportunity to improve your team by that much slip away, and passively wait/pray that it just falls on your lap sometime later on... Not by my playbook anyways. Not for a team with the prestige level (or lack thereof) of the Ottawa Senators - we dont get that luxury.

The asking price for that type of player mid season is the same as at the deadline. It’s a top prospect and a pick ++ - it isn’t prudent for Ottawa to pay that for the negotiating window to sign a 35-37 year old aging superstar.

Mark Stone at 27 is worth that price if he comes extended to 7-8 years.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Giroux this Giroux that, he'd be legendary.

But there is absolutely no way in hell we should have anyone on our current d-lineup, save Zub, that should be with Sanderson. No way. We must sign a competent effective RD who's at the level of someone like Larsson/Murphy at worst next off-season(or via trade).

Furthermore, if we are in slight playoff contention by end of December, and still no one outside of top 4 truly looks worth 2nd pairing duty, we should go out and trade for that top 4 defender. Reasoning: D.J. will run Chabot and Zub to the ground to keep us winning games and fight a difficult uphill battle.

We should have added a RD this off-season, but Dorion added 2 LD for some reason.

I agree with you but I don't think they'll add any long-term piece at RD with JBD and Thomson another year closer to making it.

Sanderson is going to be good enough to carry someone like Zaitsev and make him

They'll probably go with Zub on the 1st pairing, Zaitsev on the 2nd pairing, then the better of JBD/Thomson or maybe even J.Brown (god help us) on the 3rd pairing.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

We should have added a RD this off-season, but Dorion added 2 LD for some reason.

I agree with you but I don't think they'll add any long-term piece at RD with JBD and Thomson another year closer to making it.

Sanderson is going to be good enough to carry someone like Zaitsev and make him

They'll probably go with Zub on the 1st pairing, Zaitsev on the 2nd pairing, then the better of JBD/Thomson or maybe even J.Brown (god help us) on the 3rd pairing.

You listening to yourself? Nah, Holden will be with Sanderson to end the season but aside from that, we must get support. Also, even if Thomson and JBD are close to ready(which they aren't, they need at least another 1.5-2 years before they see any type of consistent top 4 time). Zaitsev should be gone this off-season. Replaced with a solid vet for 2-3 years.

Next year(1):

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-XXXX
Brannstrom?-Holden(re-upped)/Zaitsev

Year after(2):

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-XXXX
XXXXBrannstrom?-JBD/Thomson
JBD/Thomson

Year after(3):

Chabot(27)-Zub(29)
Sanderson(22)-JBD/Thomson(24)
XXXX/Kleven-JBD/Thomson(24)
Kleven

 

[Samsquanch]

The asking price for that type of player mid season is the same as at the deadline. It’s a top prospect and a pick ++ - it isn’t prudent for Ottawa to pay that for the negotiating window to sign a 35-37 year old aging superstar.

Mark Stone at 27 is worth that price if he comes extended to 7-8 years.

Claude Giroux is 33yrs old though....

 

[Cosmix]

This is actually a great point. I'm not the biggest proponent of paying assets for Giroux but Zorf is right. These kids who we want to be our next decade are getting tips from a guy who enters the o-zone along the boards, stops to look for someone and then usually turns over the puck.

For a very similar reason I think it is vital that Zaitsev is sent far away and replaced with a two-ish year term 2RD who is stable as soon as possible. All signs point to Sanderson walking into the 2LD role by the end of the year and Zaitsev would be his current partner this year and beyond.

Yikes.

If the Senators need a vet center to mentor the young'uns, then they could hire one or two as a part-time coach. There are a few who could teach them how to be a high quality center (e.g., Gretzky, Messier, Trottier, Jagr).