Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 62

[417]

You’re just covering your bases. I think there’s a writer in you that goes beyond this forum where things get forgotten too quickly, once a new thread or even a new thread page surfaces. You’re putting in a lot of time, you’re passionate about your opinions, you do your homework — I’d be looking to optimize the combo of those traits if it were me. Just my 2 cents.

Appreciate the kind words!

This govt desk job has run its course lol you're probably right

 

[Hins77]

Coyotes are a bad example. They are not a big market team that generates the amount of money the Habs do. Not many can pull that off but if anybody can, it's the Habs.

I wonder how much money the Leafs paid in dead cap during their youth/rebuild years? I know it's different cause they didn't retain that much to unload Kessel and Phaneuf but they did add Horton and others who was a uninsured contract on LTIR.

Leafs been really bad for a couple of year and look where they are now? A good regular season team and they are choking during playoff. I mean, there is multiple way to build a team. But i don’t think to be bad during 4/5 years is the best way to make it. I prefer to trade complimentary player for picks/prospect like toffoli/chiarot/hoffman/drouin. And build around edmundson, petry, suzuki, anderson.

 

[vokiel]

Why? What are you going to do with a 3rd? Draft someone 90th overall that has a 85% chance of never playing for your team? What is the point in that?

Free a D spot for younger/faster/better than Kulak and have a supplementary 3rd as the cherry on top.

He isn't irreplaceable. A 3rd pick for a #6 or 7 is a no brainer.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Well it's maybe not your calculations that are not accurate rather the interpretation of it.

Why is it you wrote that Molson would only care about the numbers in red?

Cause the numbers in red are big payments at once (July singing bonus money). The actual salaries during the year after the signing bonus money are prorated as the season moves along and revenue coming in at the same time.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Leafs been really bad for a couple of year and look where they are now? A good regular season team and they are choking during playoff. I mean, there is multiple way to build a team. But i don’t think to be bad during 4/5 years is the best way to make it. I prefer to trade complimentary player for picks/prospect like toffoli/chiarot/hoffman/drouin. And build around edmundson, petry, suzuki, anderson.

Leafs fell into the trap of signing Tavares cause why wouldn't you? If that was not available, they would have a stronger youth core IMO cause they would have moved up the standings later and have better picks and not think about trading them. Now they are in cap hell with a weak prospect pool to fill holes. 15 players signed for next year with $6M in cap space. $6M to sign 8 players. Depth at the bottom of the line-up will continue to be a challenge for them during covid flat cap years.

Do you want to be a contender after the rebuild or a bubble team? If you want the best shot at a contender, stay at the bottom for 3 years. This draft and two more drafts. Then you monitor the youth growth from 3-5 year span. At that stage, you probably have strengths in some areas and you can trade from a position of strength to a team need and also target UFA's

If we don't have the right rebuild strategy and are willing to go through the pains to do it, we will exit that rebuild as a "bubble team". There are many examples of failed rebuilds so I prefer to avoid that cause if we don't have the right strategy, we are in no mans land for another 10 years. Habs have the advantage of financial flexibility and sustain those pains during a rebuild

 

[417]

Leafs fell into the trap of signing Tavares cause why wouldn't you? If that was not available, they would have a stronger youth core IMO cause they would have moved up the standings later and have better picks and not think about trading them. Now they are in cap hell with a weak prospect pool to fill holes. 15 players signed for next year with $6M in cap space. $6M to sign 8 players. Depth at the bottom of the line-up will continue to be a challenge for them during covid flat cap years.

Do you want to be a contender after the rebuild or a bubble team? If you want the best shot at a contender, stay at the bottom for 3 years. This draft and two more drafts. Then you monitor the youth growth from 3-5 year span. At that stage, you probably have strengths in some areas and you can trade from a position of strength to a team need and also target UFA's

If we don't have the right rebuild strategy and are willing to go through the pains to do it, we will exit that rebuild as a "bubble team". There are many examples of failed rebuilds so I prefer to avoid that cause if we don't have the right strategy, we are in no mans land for another 10 years. Habs have the advantage of financial flexibility and sustain those pains during a rebuild

This is a bad standard to set...a team should never "try" to stay at the bottom for 3 years.

If you're at the bottom for that long, you're not doing something right.

 

[Habs Halifax]

This is a bad standard to set...a team should never "try" to stay at the bottom for 3 years.

This is where we disagree. How you get stars is with bottom 5 lottery picks and not just one or two drafts. That line of thinking you have is business related and many teams have tried it and failed.

The goal here is to retain a few guys 25+ and 30+ for good culture and leadership when you inject more than half your roster under the age of 25. Am I going to get desperate and ensure we have top 3 lottery picks for 3 years? Not necessarily but I would expect top 5 or 10 picks (with lottery shots) with a young roster that is learning on the job on the ice... like the Sens are. Sens still have a few missing pieces but they are on the right track.

Another example is the Rangers. Sending a memo out to fans they are rebuilding and then start to sign guys faster than expected cause they are open to playing in NYC. Where are the Rangers depth at center? Are they going to fill that hole with a trade or UFA? Are they a top 5 contender and if not, how long will it take for them to be a contender? Tied 2nd in the standings right now but would you consider them a contender like Tampa or Vegas?

 

[Kwikwi]

This is a bad standard to set...a team should never "try" to stay at the bottom for 3 years.

If you're at the bottom for that long, you're not doing something right.

bottom this year is a sure thing
Next year I wouldnt mind selling, then lets try making it work, without rushing it.

 

[417]

This is where we disagree. How you get stars is with bottom 5 lottery picks and not just one or two drafts. That line of thinking you have is business related and many teams have tried it and failed.

Many teams have failed when wanting to be successful? Yeah...surely, there's only 1 Cup winner every year.

But EVERY single team whose tried your approach has failed, every. single. time. You don't get better by intentionally being worse for an arbitrary period. That's just a philosophy I don't agree with, been over this several times. I'm not going to move off this and I know others won't either and that my take isn't a popular one.

But if this organization has plans to want to be bad for the next 3 years...I'm gonna stick to watching my Niners and Chelsea Football Club.

I like championship attitudes and mentality.

The goal here is to retain a few guys 25+ and 30+ for good culture and leadership when you inject more than half your roster under the age of 25. Am I going to get desperate and ensure we have top 3 lottery picks for 3 years? Not necessarily but I would expect top 5 or 10 picks (with lottery shots) with a young roster that is learning on the job on the ice... like the Sens are. Sens still have a few missing pieces but they are on the right track.

Like retaining 50% salary on capable veteran players? lol seems pretty desperate to me.

See i'm not of the opinion that with a young roster, it will mean top 5 or 10 picks for multiple years. Not if those young players are developing properly and are surrounded accordingly.

But if you strip those teams down and just expect a bunch of U-23 players to carry the entire weight of the organization on their shoulders. Then yes, that's when you get Ottawa Senators-like perpetual bottom 5 finishes (5th straight year)

Another example is the Rangers. Sending a memo out to fans they are rebuilding and then start to sign guys faster than expected cause they are open to playing in NYC. Where are the Rangers depth at center? Are they going to fill that hole with a trade or UFA? Are they a top 5 contender and if not, how long will it take for them to be a contender? Tied 2nd in the standings right now but would you consider them a contender like Tampa or Vegas?

Because no one actually involved in hockey-decision making wants to suck intentionally for multiple years obviously lol

 

[Kwikwi]

Leafs fell into the trap of signing Tavares cause why wouldn't you? If that was not available, they would have a stronger youth core IMO cause they would have moved up the standings later and have better picks and not think about trading them. Now they are in cap hell with a weak prospect pool to fill holes. 15 players signed for next year with $6M in cap space. $6M to sign 8 players. Depth at the bottom of the line-up will continue to be a challenge for them during covid flat cap years.

Do you want to be a contender after the rebuild or a bubble team? If you want the best shot at a contender, stay at the bottom for 3 years. This draft and two more drafts. Then you monitor the youth growth from 3-5 year span. At that stage, you probably have strengths in some areas and you can trade from a position of strength to a team need and also target UFA's

If we don't have the right rebuild strategy and are willing to go through the pains to do it, we will exit that rebuild as a "bubble team". There are many examples of failed rebuilds so I prefer to avoid that cause if we don't have the right strategy, we are in no mans land for another 10 years. Habs have the advantage of financial flexibility and sustain those pains during a rebuild

Cap was suppose to go up.. they got screwed

 

[sandviper]

Come on man... Kulak for McDavid is much harder than Price to the Oilers. Habs have nothing we can offer for McDavid's value and if we retain on Price, the Oilers will not hang up the phone.

Oh, so we weren't serious about Kulak for McDavid?

 

[Sorinth]

Many teams have failed when wanting to be successful? Yeah...surely, there's only 1 Cup winner every year.

But EVERY single team whose tried your approach has failed, every. single. time. You don't get better by intentionally being worse for an arbitrary period. That's just a philosophy I don't agree with, been over this several times. I'm not going to move off this and I know others won't either and that my take isn't a popular one.

But if this organization has plans to want to be bad for the next 3 years...I'm gonna stick to watching my Niners and Chelsea Football Club.

I like championship attitudes and mentality.

I wouldn't go quite this far, but I think people underestimate how difficult it is to go from being truly terrible for multiple years to being a playoff team really is. Plenty of teams tank and then after they've acquired their top picks try to turn the page on tanking and start moving towards being a contender and fail miserably at it. For example Ottawa thought going into this year the tank was over and they'd start to move up into maybe being a playoff team.

 

[vokiel]

Oh, so we weren't serious about Kulak for McDavid?

I doubt we're ever serious when someone posts a trade proposal involving the Oilers.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Cap was suppose to go up.. they got screwed

This is true yes. It's a factor for sure. Not the entire factor though. All that means is they would be able to retain Hyman but still have issues with bottom of the line-up depth and injecting other young players to fill holes. Bunting on the top line? Come on man.

However, maybe they can find a Point in the 3rd round. Tampa got lucky there.

The main point is I prefer to rebuild like the Pens and my strategy would be to reinforce what we already have with our own top 5 lottery picks and other futures you can get from trades. There is opportunity here for the Habs. We can exit this rebuild with a boat load of youth growing together in a 5 year age range ish

 

[sampollock]

maybe Allen is the guy that goes, and price stays? Allen easier to move

 

[Revansky]

maybe Allen is the guy that goes, and price stays? Allen easier to move

Yep. Price feels like an offseason kind of move with his cap hit.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

Scoop: There is no shortage of interest in Chiarot, one of the prime pieces who will almost definitely be plucked from the floundering Habs’ roster. St. Louis and Florida have already been linked to Chiarot. There will be others. That’s because there is hardly a Cup contending team Chiarot would not improve: Vegas, Colorado, Washington or the Rangers. Chiarot is a minute-chewing, dependable defenseman who is also incredibly well-liked in locker rooms. Think about how hard the Winnipeg Jets fought to keep him – and how long it took the Jets to adequately replace him. Chiarot will have some modicum of control with both a 10-team “no trade list” and the ability to influence a deal with his interest in an extension.

 

[Runner77]

I doubt we're ever serious when someone posts a trade proposal involving the Oilers.

Neither are Oiler fans. Trade viability lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[Adam Michaels]

maybe Allen is the guy that goes, and price stays? Allen easier to move

Said it in a post on the previous Trade Proposal thread that posters see a team (like the Oilers) who have goaltending issues and they automatically think Price. For me, I think of Allen.

Allen is healthy, has been good and most nights does his job well (he only has 5 wins this year, but still has over a .900 SV%). I think he is the one I think of when it comes to moving a goalie. And has a much easier cap hit to take on. And he has another year left after this year. So you're not just getting him as a pure rental.

 

[417]

I wouldn't go quite this far

I don't think i'm being extreme...I think wanting to be bad for multiple years is a terrible plan.

Bad seasons don't have to be multiplied to get to a place of success...you have to transition out of that.

but I think people underestimate how difficult it is to go from being truly terrible for multiple years to being a playoff team really is. Plenty of teams tank and then after they've acquired their top picks try to turn the page on tanking and start moving towards being a contender and fail miserably at it. For example Ottawa thought going into this year the tank was over and they'd start to move up into maybe being a playoff team.

This is what I mean by "mentality". Only fans sit there and think that teams actually plan to be bad for multiple years.

Professional organizations don't plan for this, it's sometimes an unfortunate circumstance of bad roster planning/management, but no one designs for this to happen FOR MULTIPLE YEARS.

The Senators have finished at the bottom of the standings for 5 straight years, and as a result, they've picked 28th, 4th, 19th, 3rd & 5th, 10th, because of multiple trades....

Now everyone will look at their roster and recognize the young talent there, but they're going to keep spinning their wheels for a bit because they don't have anyone over the age of 23 who is very good.

So their kids are left on their own and while it's great they're producing numbers, are they getting better? All of that losing has an effect....listen to Brady Tkachuk, he's sick of losing...but that's not going to stop any time soon.

 

[Habs Halifax]

maybe Allen is the guy that goes, and price stays? Allen easier to move

Very possible. We could move Allen now and Price stays and if Price ask for a trade later on, we try again. Then sign someone to work with Primeau

 

[Habs Halifax]

I wouldn't go quite this far, but I think people underestimate how difficult it is to go from being truly terrible for multiple years to being a playoff team really is. Plenty of teams tank and then after they've acquired their top picks try to turn the page on tanking and start moving towards being a contender and fail miserably at it. For example Ottawa thought going into this year the tank was over and they'd start to move up into maybe being a playoff team.

100% agree! This is exactly what I'm talking about. Sens are on a good track but they need a few more pieces injected. For a team like the Habs that has a hard time signing top UFA's, we have to ensure we get our stars through the draft as the primary strategy. And that will require more than 1 or two drafts.

I recall several Sens fans saying that I was "ridulous" when I said I would not have traded and extended Murray. I really do think a large % don't realize what it takes to properly rebuild into a contender. They don't have the patience for it

 

[NotProkofievian]

Neither are Oiler fans. Trade viability lies somewhere in the middle.

I saw someone describe Jeremy Bracco (sarcastically) as ''he's not good enough for our roster, but on YOUR roster he's a top 6.''

 

[NotProkofievian]

This is what I mean by "mentality". Only fans sit there and think that teams actually plan to be bad for multiple years.

Professional organizations don't plan for this, it's sometimes an unfortunate circumstance of bad roster planning/management, but no one designs for this to happen FOR MULTIPLE YEARS.

Yes they do. For instance, New York planned to do it under Jeff Gorton. There was a letter and everything. What they don't plan for is the multiple years where they should be good given the team on paper, but aren't.

 

[Hins77]

Leafs fell into the trap of signing Tavares cause why wouldn't you? If that was not available, they would have a stronger youth core IMO cause they would have moved up the standings later and have better picks and not think about trading them. Now they are in cap hell with a weak prospect pool to fill holes. 15 players signed for next year with $6M in cap space. $6M to sign 8 players. Depth at the bottom of the line-up will continue to be a challenge for them during covid flat cap years.

Do you want to be a contender after the rebuild or a bubble team? If you want the best shot at a contender, stay at the bottom for 3 years. This draft and two more drafts. Then you monitor the youth growth from 3-5 year span. At that stage, you probably have strengths in some areas and you can trade from a position of strength to a team need and also target UFA's

If we don't have the right rebuild strategy and are willing to go through the pains to do it, we will exit that rebuild as a "bubble team". There are many examples of failed rebuilds so I prefer to avoid that cause if we don't have the right strategy, we are in no mans land for another 10 years. Habs have the advantage of financial flexibility and sustain those pains during a rebuild

Your rebuild you trying to figure out is exactly the same path that what Ottawa is doing right now. Since 2016/2017 they are in a no mans land. They would benefit to acquire a big name like John Tavares like leafs did previsouly. These day, tkachuk won the jack pot after only 3 years in the show, then those big contract are coming pretty quickly in a organisation wich is easy for a mangenent to be in cap problem rapidly. St louis never fell into mediocrity and they won a stanley cup. Washington lose their mediocrity after selecting ovy in 2006. Thats a long time ago. They selected pretty high every draft and they are still a good team. Until that time. We drafted kK and galchenyuk (number 3) and we are still at the bottom. Montreal just need one or 2 good player selected in top 5 picks and after that. We could dream to a better team.