Trade "PAP, Boyes, Seto, Glencross" at trade deadline

[crump]

PAP is not a PTO...he was signed in the summer.

This is probably the only year the leafs will do the large scale 1-2 year deals and PTO's. They should have a boatload of rookies coming in at trade deadline and next year.

Nylander, Kapenen, Brown, Percy, Harrington, are almost guaranteed to be up next year. Not to mention Marner, Dermott, Could be ready too.

Have to make hay with the picks this year.

 

[Leafsman]

There is a big difference though. Bozak and Luoul are on very exeoensive, multi year contracts.

If they sign Boyes it'll be on a 1 year for 1 million type deal. Something that would be a lot more attractive on the trade market.

I don't see a single negative risk for the Leafs by signing these PTOs.

WOW - did you miss the boat on what's happening with this team,

It's called rebuilding. Buffalo recently went through it, the NYI's went through it, LA, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington, Arizona, and other teams have all gone through it to varying levels of success.

First you have to tear down. It was a weird market this summer, but eventually those 'pieces we already have' will be moved.

You need to insulate your kids - hence the one year Vet contracts for this year.

You need to acquire as many picks as possible. Hence the flexible contracts on veteran players.

As to the "****" picks - no picks are "*****" picks, and the more you have, the better your chances of hitting one out of the park.

Also - do you seriously think this is a new mantra and approach the Leafs will take for all time??? The players signing here know what's going on, but are willing to play ball because of the exposure they'll get. We're not the first team to do this while transitioning, and we won't be the last. Once the transition is over and the cupboards are stocked, the stability will come with time.

The players know what's happening, Management knows what's happening, most fans know what's happening - it appears you're in the minority that doesn't.

There is no Franson tree? Wow that's interesting, thanks for the insight.

No. That was never the claim. What?

Whether they came into camp with or without contracts makes no difference. Some of them will come out of camp with contracts. This summer was much more different than any summer before when it came to available spots largely due to the uncertainty of the Canadian dollar pushing downward pressure on the cap.

The point wasn't that we could fetch the same return. It was that you can sign these players for zero risk, give them opportunities to inflate their value and trade them for draft picks at the deadline. You're essentially buying draft picks, which is this team's new mantra.

Franson was a 27-year-old on a one-year contract with dubious defensive abilities. It took him three months this summer to sign a two-year deal with the worst team in the league. Let's not overrate him to make a point.

All the one-year UFA contracts we signed this year were for the sole purpose of trade asset acquisition. PAP will go.



Unrealistic? It worked last season.

What's wrong with the AHL?



Which players are we exposing to waivers? Frattin? He cleared waivers last year and probably will again this year, unless you want to gift him an undeserving spot? Brennan? Arcobello if one of the three outplay him? Arcobello himself is one of those players we want to flip. If one of the PTO guys outplay him, then we'll have a better asset to flip!

I want a list from you, because there's hardly anything to substantiate what you just said.



What exactly are these risks you speak of? Here, let's do some fill-in-the-blanks:

- By signing free agent veterans to deals, the Leafs run the risk of _________________________
- We are harming our ability to develop our prospects by _____________________
- My version of the Leafs thinking long-term is ________________________

If you'd like to stop exaggerating my points and creating strawmen, perhaps we can discuss this intelligently. But until you learn to take your own advice about comprehension, we're going to get absolutely nowhere and I'm going to lose patience.

Since everyone seems to be so sure they're in on this big idea and plan and it's so obvious. Let's see you actually suggest how it should be done.

Here's a pretty good lineup done by Quares27 in the waiver wire thread.

JVR Kadri Parenteau
Lupul Bozak Grabner
Winnik Holland Komarov
Matthias Arcobello Spaling
Panik


Now - fit in Glencross, Boyes and Seto. (PAP is already in there so you've even got a head start).

Pretty easy to bash me without having to actually back it up. You've gotten a full roster, so 3 players have to go.

 

[2badknees]

We'll see what we see. Only time will tell! I can assure you I'm fairly comfortable in stating PAP, Boyes, Seto and Glencross won't all be here in October let alone TD.

I don't see what this has to do with his point, which I believe is perfectly sound. If any or all of those 4 don't get contracts, its because they haven't shown during camp to be a fit as a placeholder or have enough upside to turn into picks. That's it.

 

[Leafsman]

There is a big difference though. Bozak and Luoul are on very exeoensive, multi year contracts.

If they sign Boyes it'll be on a 1 year for 1 million type deal. Something that would be a lot more attractive on the trade market.

I don't see a single negative risk for the Leafs by signing these PTOs.

2 years @ $4.25 and $5.25 - Not very expensive and not huge amount of term.

 

[BertCorbeau]

^ 3 years left, and yes for a contending team that's a fair bit of cap space for complimentary pieces - a second line winger, and a third line centre.. Not to mention Lupul is injury prone

 

[2badknees]

^ 3 years left, and yes for a contending team that's a fair bit of cap space for complimentary pieces - a second line winger, and a third line centre.. Not to mention Lupul is injury prone

If Lupul was movable without taking back salary, I'd like to think that he would have been gone long ago.

 

[Menzinger]

Since everyone seems to be so sure they're in on this big idea and plan and it's so obvious. Let's see you actually suggest how it should be done.

Here's a pretty good lineup done by Quares27 in the waiver wire thread.

JVR Kadri Parenteau
Lupul Bozak Grabner
Winnik Holland Komarov
Matthias Arcobello Spaling
Panik


Now - fit in Glencross, Boyes and Seto. (PAP is already in there so you've even got a head start).

Pretty easy to bash me without having to actually back it up. You've gotten a full roster, so 3 players have to go.

They'll rank the new guys keep the best and simply waive (or in the case of PTOs won't be resigned).

I don't see the problem here at all.

 

[Leafsman]

They'll rank the new guys keep the best and simply waive (or in the case of PTOs won't be resigned).

I don't see the problem here at all.

So your saying keep all the best players based on their play and fit for the team and not worry about trading at the TD? And you wouldn't instead fit in Boyes, Seto and Glencross so they can be traded at the deadline?

That's what the **** I said 3 pages ago!

 

[Leafsman]

^ 3 years left, and yes for a contending team that's a fair bit of cap space for complimentary pieces - a second line winger, and a third line centre.. Not to mention Lupul is injury prone

You're right, sorry my mistake.

 

[Menzinger]

So your saying keep all the best players based on their play and fit for the team and not worry about trading at the TD? And you wouldn't instead fit in Boyes, Seto and Glencross so they can be traded at the deadline?

That's what the **** I said 3 pages ago!

No, you take the best players from the new signings because they'll fetch more at the trade deadline.

If Boyes can't play hockey at the professional level there's no point signing him. If he's still got juice in the camp, let him regain his play wth the leafs.

Just like they did with Winnik and Santos last season.

 

[The CyNick]

Combination of reasons for those moves:

1. Creates a more competitive environment is camp. Going in you had very few NHL proven guys in the lineup. By adding the guys on tryouts, you know they will be working hard just to prove they still belong in the league. Now some of those guys who going in to camp thought they had spots locked up, may have to look over their shoulder and play harder.

2. Allows for guys who should be in the AHL/OHL to stay there. A guy like Nylander could have probably made this team out of camp, but now with some of these vets, you use the excuse that those guys are better suited to play bottom 6 minutes, and its better to keep Nylander in the A for at least half the season. The vet guys are more likely to be complete players, and that can be the difference between them making vs a more skilled guy like Nylander. But if its say Nylander vs another younger guy, its tougher to deny Nylander.

3. Its a zero risk/medium reward move. Worst case scenario, all these guys suck, and they dont get signed. Best case, they make the team, contribute to the team, and if someone comes calling at the deadline, great you got some extra 3rd or 4th round picks. Not really a huge payoff, but those mid round picks can often help you move up in the 1st and 2nd rounds, where the real talent is.

 

[Leafsman]

No, you take the best players from the new signings because they'll fetch more at the trade deadline.

If Boyes can't play hockey at the professional level there's no point signing him. If he's still got juice in the camp, let him regain his play wth the leafs.

Just like they did with Winnik and Santos last season.

Easier said than done! If Boyes has juice then who comes out so he can be showcased.

If one of those guys comes out then you may not be able to get them back if they're lost via waiver wire.

It's pretty simple to suggest this method without having to actually implement it. It's not so clear cut as some of you keep suggesting.

I also said if a player shows he can be a part of this team then by all means sign him but utilizing multiple roster spots is not feasible. So back-peddling now by suggesting only a single player is again as somone accused me of a strawman.

The title says trade PAP, Seto, Glencross and Boyes. So suggesting a single roster spot is a far cry from the suggestion made for which many people jumped down my throat for saying is not feasible.

Also as I stated in the "waiver players" thread it is 99% unlikely this team "simply waives" a player they just extended an offer to.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Can't even get a decent enough return for Lupul or Bozak yet teams are going to come running with 1st and 2nd rounders for a bunch of guys no one even offered contracts to.

At least 1st and 2nds would be what everyone is crying for come January. Then they manage to actually trade one for a 5th and you all **** your pants screaming for mgmt's head! Same ****, different year!

Take a deep breath and relax. It's going to be ok, you'll see.

 

[namttebih]

If Lupul was movable without taking back salary, I'd like to think that he would have been gone long ago.

To be honest, I don't think that he's movable with salary retained at this point.

 

[tmlms13]

Someone has to play the games, can't just flip everyone. Anything in the 2nd round or later are pretty much lottery picks anyways. And that's the best they'll get by flipping players.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

If they weren't good enough to look like they can be with this team going forward wouldn't it be also just as beneficial to look for some Richard Panik type players who may not have made the cut on another team but are still young with potential and we can take them on with an open roster spot? To me this has much more potential upside than taking a shot on a wash-out Edit: (To take a shot on a wash-out to trade to then take a shot on a low-draft pick - Those odds to not equate to being worthwhile)

(Note: I'm not suggesting any of the players above are wash-outs yet, that is not possible to say until we get way further into preseason.) If they're good enough to play with the team going forward then that's great and if something happens they get traded then awesome. However, taking them on in hopes to trade them is not a worthwhile strategy in my opinion.

Yes it does. Agreed. I made the same point in another thread.

 

[Drew75]

Since everyone seems to be so sure they're in on this big idea and plan and it's so obvious. Let's see you actually suggest how it should be done.

Here's a pretty good lineup done by Quares27 in the waiver wire thread.

JVR Kadri Parenteau
Lupul Bozak Grabner
Winnik Holland Komarov
Matthias Arcobello Spaling
Panik


Now - fit in Glencross, Boyes and Seto. (PAP is already in there so you've even got a head start).

Pretty easy to bash me without having to actually back it up. You've gotten a full roster, so 3 players have to go.

It's called competition. A) not all of Glencross, Boyes, and Seto may make the team (I'd say Seto is in tough). B) Arcobello and / or Spaling can be put on waivers and sent down. C) anyone not in the long term plans (Bozak / Holland / Spaling) could be moved pre-October 1st. D) Injuries could occur prior to October 1st.

Teams keep up to 23 bodies. it's easy to have 14 forwards, 7 D and 2 goalies. Send down Spaling, sign Boyes and Glencross, cut Seto and you're good.

 

[613Leafer]

Babcock isnt the GM, so that's one thing.

Another is that Detroit was a team constantly in the playoffs, so they werent really expected to be sellers. Leafs dont have core players like Datsyuk/Zetterberg, we're not remotely close to being a contender, etc.

These one-year deals are absolutely trade fodder, regardless of what Babcock has liked in the past. He and our management team have all said that they need to get Hunter more draft picks too, so sounds like Babcock is on board with some short-term pain, selling guys off, etc.

 

[A1LeafNation]

You can count on injuries happening in training camp. They always do.

 

[Swervin81]

You can count on injuries happening in training camp. They always do.

Yup. Remember Tallinder last year.

Plus, it's not like every single one of them will be tradeable at the deadline. Remember Booth last year? Not all of these will work out (or in Booth's case, work out when it's far too late).

 

[Leafsman]

It's called competition. A) not all of Glencross, Boyes, and Seto may make the team (I'd say Seto is in tough).

B) Arcobello and / or Spaling can be put on waivers and sent down.

C) anyone not in the long term plans (Bozak / Holland / Spaling) could be moved pre-October 1st.

D) Injuries could occur prior to October 1st.

Teams keep up to 23 bodies. it's easy to have 14 forwards, 7 D and 2 goalies. Send down Spaling, sign Boyes and Glencross, cut Seto and you're good.

Put Spaling on waivers?!?!

No chance anybody they just traded for/signed gets waived or cut before the season.

They didn't just trade for Spaling to loose him to waivers. Never in a million years will that happen.

Where in the hell did people get this notion that because a few guys get PTO's that all of a sudden they're top priority in fitting in.

Boyes, Glencross and Seto are not compteing with Arcobello, Spaling, PAP or anyone else that was OFFERED A CONTRACT.

Unbelievable! You blatantly criticize people for not seeing some obvious plan then suggest waiving a guy we just traded Kessel for without even a regular season game.

Thank god this team is not run by fans - they'd be trying to fit skates on draft picks in order to ice a full team.

 

[Leafsman]

You can count on injuries happening in training camp. They always do.

How do preseason injuries affect the roster? Does the injured player have to be put on the roster then disabled list and a player brought up or can they be put on disabled list prior to season starting and a player kept to fill the spot?

The difference being the first scenario includes sending someone through waivers.

 

[Johny Drama]

Put Spaling on waivers?!?!

No chance anybody they just traded for/signed gets waived or cut before the season.

They didn't just trade for Spaling to loose him to waivers. Never in a million years will that happen.

Where in the hell did people get this notion that because a few guys get PTO's that all of a sudden they're top priority in fitting in.

Boyes, Glencross and Seto are not compteing with Arcobello, Spaling, PAP or anyone else that was OFFERED A CONTRACT.

Unbelievable! You blatantly criticize people for not seeing some obvious plan then suggest waiving a guy we just traded Kessel for without even a regular season game.

Thank god this team is not run by fans - they'd be trying to fit skates on draft picks in order to ice a full team.

Beck was acquired via trade and recently traded out before even playing a game. Not impossible to think Spaling or Arcobello don't make the team if they are outplayed, regardless of the contracts.

I cannot see any of the PTO players getting deals unless they absolutely blow the doors off during the ex games. One thing to keep in mind though, someone like Glencross may have been offered a 1 year contract similar to what we gave for Parenteau, but held off for a better deal and now that nothing has come along, is desperate enough to try and get anything that comes his way.\

One thing to remember thought...its not a tryout, its a camp. Management will have a pretty good idea as to who they are looking to start the season with...but every team always leafs the door slightly open just in case someone surprises.

 

[Ovate]

Since everyone seems to be so sure they're in on this big idea and plan and it's so obvious. Let's see you actually suggest how it should be done.

Here's a pretty good lineup done by Quares27 in the waiver wire thread.

JVR Kadri Parenteau
Lupul Bozak Grabner
Winnik Holland Komarov
Matthias Arcobello Spaling
Panik


Now - fit in Glencross, Boyes and Seto. (PAP is already in there so you've even got a head start).

Pretty easy to bash me without having to actually back it up. You've gotten a full roster, so 3 players have to go.

Pretty simple, actually.

Trade Bozak, for a conditional 7th if necessary. Management was reportedly looking for a 2nd, but come way down on that. Replace him with Boyes.

Send Spaling to the Marlies, or trade him if someone is willing to offer anything. Replace him with Glencross. If Spaling is on the Marlies, he's there for injury replacement.

Don't sign Setoguchi. He's worse that everyone else on the roster.

 

[Leafsman]

Beck was acquired via trade and recently traded out before even playing a game. Not impossible to think Spaling or Arcobello don't make the team if they are outplayed, regardless of the contracts.

I cannot see any of the PTO players getting deals unless they absolutely blow the doors off during the ex games. One thing to keep in mind though, someone like Glencross may have been offered a 1 year contract similar to what we gave for Parenteau, but held off for a better deal and now that nothing has come along, is desperate enough to try and get anything that comes his way.

"Traded" being the difference. Trading Beck for a roster player and to clear up roster spots is a farcry that waiving a player you just recieved in a trade for Phil Kessel.

I said in the Waiver Player thread that if one of the PTO's proves worthwhile they'll make room but it won;t be at the expense of a recently acquired player being waived. 95% chance a deal to make room!

It's ironic that these posters fight tooth and nail to defend a strategy of signing and flipping these PTO players to acquire assets. Then as part of their plan don't give a thought to waiving and losing current assets for nothing??? Shows the delusions these posters have when it comes yo making trades and picks - Give up assets to acquire assets to trade for a chance to possibly get an asset?