Trade, FA, Rumour Thread

[nobody imp0rtant]

Wow its amazing that one down year can turn people off players. I prefer to look at last year as a learning experience for Morrissey, just like when Helle struggled mightily in 2017 trying to be a number 1 goalie Morrissey struggled to be the number 1 dmen. Helle put in the work and came back with a vengeance, Morrisey is also a hard worker and very determined so lets see how he learns and adapts from a disappointing year.

Helly progressed because he found a good coach outside the organization. Morrissey found Adam Oates. Look at the list of current and former Jets in his stable. Scheif, Wheeler, JoMo, Copp, Nate Thompson now, and formerly Kulikov and Myers. A bunch of guys that never got better under his tutelage and some may have gotten worse.

Is JoMo really a #1? I guess on the Jets, but we set that bar pretty low.

 

[Weezeric]

I'd be surprised if Chevy hasn't already had discussions with Wheeler about the expansion draft. Personally I think 4-4-1 works very well if Wheeler waives as there are only 4 must protect forwards in Scheifele, Laine, Ehlers, Connor. After that the drop off is huge and the range of quality of the unprotected players is tight.

I don’t see any need to go 4 and 4 with Samberg and Heinola on the rise. You’d think that at least one of them would be able to be a 4D by next season.

 

[KingBogo]

I haven't forgotten last season's nightmare D corps. We are already much improved on that D. We didn't have Sbisa to start the season. We didn't get Beaulieu until the end of Feb. And we only had DeMelo for the last 10 games of the season. We went 6-3-1 with him in the lineup. Add Forbort and Samberg. Still needs work but the spectre of last season's D corps is fading.

So Weegar played with Ekblad. How much of his success was due to his partner? Just asking.

Again, how much of an upgrade is he on DeMelo? If he is a true 1RD, I have no problem with the price. I will pay more if necessary.

Don't be so quick to write off Roslovic. He was very good with Harkins and Appleton. He was good in the play-in. He is a 3rd line winger because of the logjam in front of him.

I'm of a differing opinion of Rosie than you are. IMO he is a 3rd line winger as he plays on the periphery and is very inconsistent. Soon you will have to start paying him more than he is worth. Also I'm of the opinion based on signings this off season, depth forwards are the ones being squeezed the hardest. Teams will still pay for star forwards and good defenseman while pulling in the reigns in on signing bottom 6 forwards. So it stands to reason we should put ourselves in a position to protect defenseman and star forwards, as when all is said and done depth forwards provide the most value as they are the most depressed segment of players looking for work.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Agreed Rosie and Niku would unlikely be enough, unless contract negotiations between Florida and Weegar have really broken down. I think Rosie and Pionk would need an add on their part as Pionk has the counting stats on his side. I don't think Heinola will be brought over until after his Liiga season. We are in different times and teams might prioritize development with a shorten compressed NHL schedule. And I posted elsewhere I don't think their will be an AHL season but rather teams will be allowed to carry a taxi squad while maintaining current player movement rules. I see an internal hierarchy of defense assuming we get Weegar, trade Niku and keep Heinola in Liiga until their season is complete:

Morrissey
Demelo
Weegar
Pionk
Samberg
Forbort
Poolman
Booboo
Sbisa

While not the best grouping in the NHL, it is far better than last season and allows us to be far more competitive.

That's all fine. But with Weegar being below DeMelo, I still have to question trading Rosie for him. That leaves one of Thompson or Toninato in our regular lineup when we are healthy. We are almost never that healthy so they both play. That is scary. We don't have spare F to toss into trades anymore.

I expect Gus to stay in Europe too. We would have Vesalainen to call back. That's about it.

We need top pairing level Dmen. How many 2nd pair D do you think we need?

 

[KingBogo]

I don’t see any need to go 4 and 4 with Samberg and Heinola on the rise. You’d think that at least one of them would be able to be a 4D by next season.

My point is our #4 defenseman would have more market value than our #5 forward. So let Seattle pick the #5 forward which has less market value than the #4 defenseman assuming he is top 4 level defenseman. This is on the assumption Wheeler waives his NMC or Laine/other star winger is traded before the XD.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'd be surprised if Chevy hasn't already had discussions with Wheeler about the expansion draft. Personally I think 4-4-1 works very well if Wheeler waives as there are only 4 must protect forwards in Scheifele, Laine, Ehlers, Connor. After that the drop off is huge and the range of quality of the unprotected players is tight.

The close range of quite a large number of F & D helps your case. Whichever one Seattle picks they will all be about the same value. But I prefer to retain the choice.

Talking to Wheeler about it now strikes me as way premature. Not sure how Wheeler would react at this point. After he sees how this season goes, it is quite different. But if they have discussed it, I doubt Wheeler would commit to an answer at this time.

 

[KingBogo]

That's all fine. But with Weegar being below DeMelo, I still have to question trading Rosie for him. That leaves one of Thompson or Toninato in our regular lineup when we are healthy. We are almost never that healthy so they both play. That is scary. We don't have spare F to toss into trades anymore.

I expect Gus to stay in Europe too. We would have Vesalainen to call back. That's about it.

We need top pairing level Dmen. How many 2nd pair D do you think we need?

I'd go for as many players as I could get in this range. We don't have a true #1 pair so we need to distribute the difficult minutes as best we can. In terms of forwards I think you will be amazed at the quality of player looking for work and signing for cheap once a season starts getting close.

 

[Whileee]

The more I think about it, the more I think the Jets are going to role with the D they have now and plan to work Samberg (and perhaps Heinola) into the roster this season. Expending considerable assets to pick up a D that you are likely to lose in the expansion draft doesn't make that much sense, particularly if the Jets think Samberg and Heinola are likely to be 2nd-pairing D in the not-too-distant future.

The only caveat might be a big Laine trade, if one of the players coming back is a good top-pairing D. In that case, I could see the Jets moving Pionk, either as part of a Laine trade or as a follow-up.

 

[surixon]

Helly progressed because he found a good coach outside the organization. Morrissey found Adam Oates. Look at the list of current and former Jets in his stable. Scheif, Wheeler, JoMo, Copp, Nate Thompson now, and formerly Kulikov and Myers. A bunch of guys that never got better under his tutelage and some may have gotten worse.

Is JoMo really a #1? I guess on the Jets, but we set that bar pretty low.

Well I am willing to give him a shot to see how he does when fully healthy and a year under him. I also see him more as a number 2 that might be a decent number 1 if he can add some layers to his game next year. The good news is that he isnt paid like a number 1 dmen anyhow so even if he's a good number 2 he is full value for his contract.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'm of a differing opinion of Rosie than you are. IMO he is a 3rd line winger as he plays on the periphery and is very inconsistent. Soon you will have to start paying him more than he is worth. Also I'm of the opinion based on signings this off season, depth forwards are the ones being squeezed the hardest. Teams will still pay for star forwards and good defenseman while pulling in the reigns in on signing bottom 6 forwards. So it stands to reason we should put ourselves in a position to protect defenseman and star forwards, as when all is said and done depth forwards provide the most value as they are the most depressed segment of players looking for work.

I don't disagree with that, but I think Roslovic still has potential. If a winger and a defenseman are of the same ability level, the D has more value. That might make Rosie for Weegar straight up a good trade. But the other issue is dissipation of assets. We can't make a move for what we really need if we spend all of our trade chips on small upgrades. All we have to get something better is bundling our assets.

What we need is a 1RD. We really don't need anything less. With the possible exception of a short term upgrade at 2LD. How likely is it that we could get something short term?

 

[KingBogo]

I don't disagree with that, but I think Roslovic still has potential. If a winger and a defenseman are of the same ability level, the D has more value. That might make Rosie for Weegar straight up a good trade. But the other issue is dissipation of assets. We can't make a move for what we really need if we spend all of our trade chips on small upgrades. All we have to get something better is bundling our assets.

What we need is a 1RD. We really don't need anything less. With the possible exception of a short term upgrade at 2LD. How likely is it that we could get something short term?

We are only getting a #1 RHD in a Laine trade or draft one. Other than that we are left with upgrades where we can and hope that is enough.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'd go for as many players as I could get in this range. We don't have a true #1 pair so we need to distribute the difficult minutes as best we can. In terms of forwards I think you will be amazed at the quality of player looking for work and signing for cheap once a season starts getting close.

Oh sure. I would have 10 of them, if they were free. Defense is not the only thing on a team.

There may be some bargains out there for sure. I don't think I want to count on that. And what are we going to use for cap space. If we trade Rosie for Weegar and sign Weegar for 3.5, there is none left.

 

[Upperdeckjet]

The close range of quite a large number of F & D helps your case. Whichever one Seattle picks they will all be about the same value. But I prefer to retain the choice.

Talking to Wheeler about it now strikes me as way premature. Not sure how Wheeler would react at this point. After he sees how this season goes, it is quite different. But if they have discussed it, I doubt Wheeler would commit to an answer at this time.

I agree that it may be too early to talk about, but the idea of Wheeler waiving for the expansion draft is a bit of a euraka moment for me. I would be quite happy with the result, either way.

 

[Gil Fisher]

It seems like a fair contract.

Laine needs to ask for 3 years at $12 million now.

Mr. Carlos, I believe you have become jaded.

 

[Gil Fisher]

Weegar is worth 2 Roslovics. You couldn't have forgotten the nightmare last season was on defense. Weegar played on Florida's top pair, on his off side with exceptional possession metrics. Yes he is a big enough upgrade to spend a 3rd line winger on.

Several points of order:

1. Last season's defense has been upgraded by Demelo and Samberg, which is significant.
2. Weegar played with Ekblad. What happened to Morrissey without Trouba or Buff? #1 D men can carry a pairing.
3. Roslovic's number sreflect an average 2nd line forward, despite 4th line and checking line usage. In his career, he is 1.73 p/60 at 5v5. Rhetoric aside, he's performed well.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think this is the wrong read of the Copp situation. He isn't Jacob. He's much brighter. He enjoys the business of the game. I think he will be open to re-upping.

I think he will, but I'm not too confident of that. I think he would be happy as 3C of a 2 way line and 3-3.5 per yr. But that is a lot of speculation on my part.

Harkins - Copp - Appleton
could be a line that would defend well and still score. They can all PK.

Lowry could centre a very good 4th line. Or we could move on from Lowry (we may not have a choice) and build a checking line around Gus.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Wow its amazing that one down year can turn people off players. I prefer to look at last year as a learning experience for Morrissey, just like when Helle struggled mightily in 2017 trying to be a number 1 goalie Morrissey struggled to be the number 1 dmen. Helle put in the work and came back with a vengeance, Morrisey is also a hard worker and very determined so lets see how he learns and adapts from a disappointing year.

Betcha that comment was based on a 4 game sample in the play-in.

 

[surixon]

Betcha that comment was based on a 4 game sample in the play-in.

Lol. He was fine in the playins though, him and DeMelo neutralized the Geudreau line. The second pairing got caved in though.

 

[voyageur]

I soured on Morrissey and Pionk. Jets have next to no D.

I am trying to stay positive. It's not the same team without Big Buff. I think Morrissey will be better this year with a stable d-partner, and getting his health back, which made him play a lot softer than usual.

I think Pionk will be better with a d-partner he is on the same page with. I liked Kulikov because he had some talent, was a pretty smooth skater, but it would have been nice to see Pionk play with Samberg earlier. I think they have some potential to be a good d-pairing.

I'm still a Beaulieu fan, glad he found a home in Winnipeg.

Hoping the future brings some more potential to a completely rebuilt defense, with only one defenseman left from 2017-2018.

 

[KingBogo]

Several points of order:

1. Last season's defense has been upgraded by Demelo and Samberg, which is significant.
2. Weegar played with Ekblad. What happened to Morrissey without Trouba or Buff? #1 D men can carry a pairing.
3. Roslovic's numbers show reflect and average 2nd line forward, despite 4th line and checking line usage. In his career, he is 1.73 p/60 at 5v5. Rhetoric aside, he's performed well.

You can make all the points of order you want. One player is a top 4 defenseman and the other is a 3rd line winger. One is worth much more than the other. Last season Roslovic's xGF% was 43.91% and Weegar's xGF% was 54.73% and at a much more important position. I'm high on Samberg but there are no guarantees, and it might take a few years to get to his potential.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

We are only getting a #1 RHD in a Laine trade or draft one. Other than that we are left with upgrades where we can and hope that is enough.

I know it is a slim chance but a package of Rosie + Pionk + 1st has value. Might get an unproven one. If not that, or something similar, you are probably right. That is no reason to start making trades for the sake of tiny incremental improvements on D at the cost of those same assets and degrading some other part of the roster.

I don't know Weegar well enough to have any opinion on his quality. I'm going by the ratings of posters here, including you. From what you have said, he isn't worth the price you are trying to pay. You ranked him right below DeMelo. We have DeMelo, we don't need another DeMelo.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Lol. He was fine in the playins though, him and DeMelo neutralized the Geudreau line. The second pairing got caved in though.

But we didn't win so ......... xxx was bad, yyy was bad.

 

[KingBogo]

I know it is a slim chance but a package of Rosie + Pionk + 1st has value. Might get an unproven one. If not that, or something similar, you are probably right. That is no reason to start making trades for the sake of tiny incremental improvements on D at the cost of those same assets and degrading some other part of the roster.

I don't know Weegar well enough to have any opinion on his quality. I'm going by the ratings of posters here, including you. From what you have said, he isn't worth the price you are trying to pay. You ranked him right below DeMelo. We have DeMelo, we don't need another DeMelo.

I'd say we need about 3 DeMelo's. We are all hoping that Samberg basically becomes a DeMelo. If we could get another 2/3 defenseman that would be outstanding. The chance of some combination of players not including Laine or Scheifele getting us a true #1 RHD are extremely remote. My biggest motivator for pushing so hard for an improved defense is when I started to isolate our top 6 forwards who struggled defensively with better defense there was a very significant rise in their possession numbers. IMO we will become a much better overall possession team if we can add more D that can defend and move the puck. A true #1 RHD is a dream at this point. Getting 4 or 5 players that grade out at #2-#4 at least gives us a fighting chance at being competitive.

 

[Jack722]

Does anyone else ever sit back and think about how spoiled we were to have Morrissey - Trouba and Buff - Enstrom as our top 4? That's looking a long ways off now.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I'd say we need about 3 DeMelo's. We are all hoping that Samberg basically becomes a DeMelo. If we could get another 2/3 defenseman that would be outstanding. The chance of some combination of players not including Laine or Scheifele getting us a true #1 RHD are extremely remote. My biggest motivator for pushing so hard for an improved defense is when I started to isolate our top 6 forwards who struggled defensively with better defense there was a very significant rise in their possession numbers. IMO we will become a much better overall possession team if we can add more D that can defend and move the puck. A true #1 RHD is a dream at this point. Getting 4 or 5 players that grade out at #2-#4 at least gives us a fighting chance at being competitive.

I was hoping Samberg becomes better than Demelo. A more physical better scoring Demelo.