Post-Game Talk: Trade Deadline 2024 (buy low, sell high) - poll added (3/8/24)

What grade do you give BMac for the TDL?

  • A

    Votes: 22 31.4%
  • B

    Votes: 36 51.4%
  • C

    Votes: 8 11.4%
  • D

    Votes: 1 1.4%
  • F

    Votes: 3 4.3%

  • Total voters
    70

twabby

Registered User
Mar 9, 2010
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Sure looks like a contract year to me!

You’re also neglecting to mention the softness, inconsistency and injury problems.

The injury problems are the only one of these three that I see as a legitimate concern. Plenty of good players are soft and plenty of bad players are hard. And I don't actually think he's less consistent than the average player, seeing as he's never posted a negative GAR year.

Again I'm not asking they commit long-term to Mantha. If his market truly is a long-term deal then by all means sell him. I just doubt that's the case, and I doubt that his next deal will contain any significant risk because I expect the term to be short and the AAV to be reasonable.
 
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alphabetical

Registered User
May 8, 2013
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A different interpretation is that his worst year was still well above average. Sounds like a consistently good player to me, even if he's not always great. Me personally? I like consistently good to great players that could be had for relatively cheap.

I also suspect the variance in his impacts aren't all that different than most players. As an example, here's consummate professional Nic Dowd:


View attachment 829325

His performances vary wildly from -0.3 GAR/60 to +0.6 GAR/60, yet I don't think anyone questions his effort level or his reliability.
You'll have to define well above average when mantha's worst season has a GAR/60 that looks like 0.05. I just don't see how being scarcely above 0 is a boon, but maybe I just don't understand how these stats are meant to be applied.

I simply pointed out that the stats that support your view of him also support his detractors' view of him. I personally don't care either way on Mantha. He'll be fine as a stopgap during the rebuild, but I don't want him signed for very long. A year or two at about 4M$ is all he's worth in my books because his on ice performance is so volatile.

As for the dowd comparison, I expect less from a player that costs 1/3 as much, and I expect more variability from that player. Look harder into that variability if you really want to argue against it. Picking a single comparison is lazy.
 

pman25

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Aug 29, 2009
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I’d say Manthas value is a 2nd and a 3rd. The 3rd is just to retain 50% and the 2nd should upgrade to a 1st if the team advances to the conference finals

Im guessing he is gone because Bmac said he wants to maintain flexibility going into the offseason. Im not too stuck on him either way but I am gonna be a quite annoyed if they replace him in free agency with someone who is… a) not as good and b) just as expensive if not more expensive. I hope they don’t do that.

I would sell him but kick the tires on July 1?
 

DWGie26

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On Mantha, I’d like to sell. We should get good value (i like @pman25 model). But I think there are two seconds with buyout or maybe a first. But I’d take any of those to build assets and get value for Mantha regardless.

In terms of July 1, That decision could also hinge on Leonard. When his college season is over he could come play in WSH. If he stays in college Mantha may look good coming back.
 
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Raikkonen

Dumb guy
Aug 19, 2009
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Sell Dowd and one of TvR/Jensen. For once, can we not wait until guys are too old to have any value?

I saw on the Oilers intermission that one of their top needs is a big, defensive, right-shot center that can PK. So, basically Dowd. Let’s sell some guys a year too early for a change.
I remember we discussed Beagle and I said he has lost a step (before it was mainstream). Shitstorm came in my direction :P Turned out I was right that time actually.

Good time to sell Dowd if he's healthy. His time will come soon but some team can benefit from his capabilities right now.

What do the 24-25 lines look like (based on contractual status):

8-29-??
15-17-43
21-24-77
47-26-??

There is no slot for Anthony Mantha. That top RW is Ryan Leonard, either next, or the following year. Committing money to him long term makes no sense.
77 right there is not blocking anyone. He's at the end of the road, you can place him at 4RW if Leonard comes. No big deal.
 
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Raikkonen

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Aug 19, 2009
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I’d say Manthas value is a 2nd and a 3rd. The 3rd is just to retain 50% and the 2nd should upgrade to a 1st if the team advances to the conference finals

Im guessing he is gone because Bmac said he wants to maintain flexibility going into the offseason. Im not too stuck on him either way but I am gonna be a quite annoyed if they replace him in free agency with someone who is… a) not as good and b) just as expensive if not more expensive. I hope they don’t do that.

I would sell him but kick the tires on July 1?
I dont know if picks around late #1 and early #2 are considered potentially good players. If Caps know something and will see an opportunity to sell high on Mantha - so be it.

If he really likes to play hockey here for next 2 years - sign him 2x5M or smth, 3 years tops. Not a bad player with some chemistry with Ovi. Going higher salary isn't a problem for now it seems, so buy less term with it.

If Mantha doesnt want to be here, auction him.
 
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Raikkonen

Dumb guy
Aug 19, 2009
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8-29-?
15-17-43
21-24-39
Miro-92-77

how about that?!

actually looking like Mantha maybe isnt in the plans if they have their eyes on some other more reliable RW

but that Miro-92-77 line all could be not available
 

Ridley Simon

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Mantha might score 20 goals next year? Maybe he will go back to being lazy ass.

I'd rather give his spot to any number of younger Hershey guys that might score 10 or 15 at minimum wage and develop at the same time.
See, this where we forget our Caps history. We’ve had a quite a few players that had similar “xGAF” quota issues. Think Semin, or recent vintage.

Best way to handle xGAF is to only give short term deals. Money can be a tad higher, as long as the term is Uber-short.

So most I’d do is 2yrs. And I’d do 4.5 or so a year. If he likes being here and likes Carberry, and trusts management, then it could be a good set up for him.

And if so, why not?
 
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DWGie26

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Chemistry with linemates. New coaching. Found his grove. Contract year. All of that helps.

I’m still selling and getting assets. Last year (and this) is about building growth assets with young players. Getting value for UFA’s. So Mantha goes now and maybe he comes back. But assets for now please.
 

Ridley Simon

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What do the 24-25 lines look like (based on contractual status):

8-29-??
15-17-43
21-24-77
47-26-??

There is no slot for Anthony Mantha. That top RW is Ryan Leonard, either next, or the following year. Committing money to him long term makes no sense.
Well — we all know TJ is unfortunately a stretch to be here. Sadly.

I’m hard pressed to pencil in Milano over Mantha.

And we have an open RW spot. We could see any number of players there.

Plus I thought you were one of the “sell Mortimer, sell…!!!!!” club, which means no Dowd?

Lastly - pencilling in a 19yr old as 1RW? Really? I mean sure — but we are THAT postive about that?

Leonard could make the team. But let’s put him at 4RW to start, and see where we are???
 

ArmadilloThumb

Registered User
Apr 20, 2018
552
402
Thoughts...

Minimums to move each (again I will value high, as I assume GMBM will and has a track record for value or no deal):

• Mantha 1st
• Dowd 1st
• Chuckie 1st
• DK 1st
• Jensen 1st
• Patches 2nd
• Ed 2nd
• Beck 2nd
• NAK 3 rd

Again, GMBM won't be a simp. Aim high or say no. Be open to hockey trades that make sense for worthy targets 25 yo or younger only. Do not go for older with term this TD or summer. Keep spots open and wait until the dust settles with Kuzy, Backstrom, Oshie, and use the Cap space next year when we know where we are with Miro and Leonard and other potential surprise bloomer prospects that emerge. Then fill in gaps next year with hockey trades and UFAs.

I would be looking at 2025 1sts as well as 2024 1sts as part of the ask this week. There could be trade chips potentially after the season/next season for hockey trades. Remember we have THREE 2nds next draft.

Patience at this point buys time to maximize draft and prospect capital, and make the best possible moves to become Cup competitive way faster and get Ovi to stay a little longer.

We could also see Miro and the other young'uns we have up and available for this season go on a tear and could actually make the playoffs after making the move to get a haul of picks.
 
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Ridley Simon

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Thoughts...

Minimums to move each (again I will value high, as I assume GMBM will and has a track record for value or no deal):

• Mantha 1st
• Dowd 1st
• Chuckie 1st
• DK 1st
• Jensen 1st
• Patches 2nd
• Ed 2nd
• Beck 2nd
• NAK 3 rd

Again, GMBM won't be a simp. Aim high or say no. Be open to hockey trades that make sense for worthy targets 25 yo or younger only. Do not go for older with term this TD or summer. Keep spots open and wait until the dust settles with Kuzy, Backstrom, Oshie, and use the Cap space next year when we know where we are with Miro and Leonard and other potential surprise bloomer prospects that emerge. Then fill in gaps next year hockey trades and UFAs.

I would be asking for 2025 1st as well as 2024 as part of the ask this week. There could be trade chips potentially after the season/next season for hockey trades.

Patience at this point buys time to maximize draft and prospect capital, and make the best possible moves to become Cup competitive way faster and get Ovi to stay a little longer. We could also see Miro and the other young'uns we have up and available for this season go on a tear and could actually make the playoffs after making the move to get a haul of picks.
Hi Mr Thumb —

Yer ahhhh, perhaps a little TOO high, from whatever you’re smoking?
 

DWGie26

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Gonna have some new young players next year, hopefully a top 6 center, Acquired at TDL as part of other moves or At the draft.

OV-Top 6 C-Wilson
Milano-Strome-Oshie
Protas-McMichael-Leonard
Malenstyn-Lapierre-NAK/Sutter/Youth

I’d also be fine brining Mantha back at right price/term and move Oshie to 4RW (Leonard to 2RW). Keep Sutter as 13F. Gives a lot of options when injuries occur.

I think Miro is a call-up again next year. Hopefully more games. Frank if he stays. Dube some games. Rybinski, Trineyev, and Hofer would be long shot call-ups but if duty calls see what’s up.
 

ArmadilloThumb

Registered User
Apr 20, 2018
552
402
Thoughts on Kuzy...

Much appreciation and sympathy, and wishes for his mental health and happiness.

My hope is he takes the HER assignment to heart and does great. Caps could then dangle him as recoverable goods at 50% after paying the July 1st bonus (especially there is extra cap space available from Oshie if he goes LTIR) and actually get a return. No buyout as that goes into a further year...

Another option he or the team may discuss is he plays in HER, hangs around and gets his $2 million July 1st bonus and then refuses to report in September and they do a mutual termination at that point. He only looses $6 million (he may have a nest egg he is happy with already), and then goes back to the KHL if that is truly the change of scenery there.

Hi Mr Thumb —

Yer ahhhh, perhaps a little TOO high, from whatever you’re smoking?
I agree but if you don't ask you don't get and depending how the week goes for the rest of the buyers and sellers GMBM may have more leverage. I trust you would be happy if we hit the target on even half my suggestions.

Other GMs can do crazy shit sometimes! Encourage them!!!
 
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ArmadilloThumb

Registered User
Apr 20, 2018
552
402
And I would remind everyone of my pet project... get Leason back from AMA for a 6th or whatever. He was part of a plan to pair with Protas (they were pure sympatico gold together back in Prince Albert). Would love to see them give that a shot (over Phillips) and if nothing else he could help in HER if we have a lot of Bears up/ineligible.


Quote:

2018-19 Season with Prince Albert Raiders​

Leason and Protas first became teammates with the Prince Albert Raiders for the 2018-19 season. Leason blossomed offensively and scored 36 goals with 53 assists in 55 games. Protas, who was generally one of his linemates, scored 11 goals with 29 assists for 40 points overall. Leason won the team’s Dave Balon Award for Leading Scorer.
"
 
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Roshi

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Feb 7, 2013
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The injury problems are the only one of these three that I see as a legitimate concern. Plenty of good players are soft and plenty of bad players are hard. And I don't actually think he's less consistent than the average player, seeing as he's never posted a negative GAR year.

Again I'm not asking they commit long-term to Mantha. If his market truly is a long-term deal then by all means sell him. I just doubt that's the case, and I doubt that his next deal will contain any significant risk because I expect the term to be short and the AAV to be reasonable.

Yes, Mantha has been good this year.

He was not before and making an opposite case is just another red mark for reading at the GAR or whatever else %-statline like bible.

His coach, his exec's, and himself literally just went through mental professionals to find out whats wrong with this game the past couple years trying to fix it. And assumably they did do something right with that arc, as Mantha has been able to bounce back (for his contract year).

He was sitting healthy scratched and he had no complaints because he himfself agreed he was playing that bad.

I guess I hope they had the knowledge of GAR datasheet so they didnt have to go through all that other stuff, when nothing was ever actually wrong.

Lets see how many teams will let Phillips go for free before someone in NHL sees his advanced stats and understands how good he is. So far noone in Calgary, Washington and Pittsburgh have been smart enough to take a look at the stats.
 
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trick9

Registered User
Jun 2, 2013
12,277
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Trade:

Anthony Mantha - UFA
* Shouldn't be re-signed, since he wants term. I'd be fine with him back on a 1-year contract but even for that, he's going to want to test the market first. Get a pick in return, instead of letting him walk for free. Another point: Shed some cap so that Pacioretty's bonuses don't hit us for next season.

Joel Edmundson - UFA
* Good veteran. I think there is a good chance he'll return what we paid for him. Not going to miss him.



Explore:

Nic Dowd
* See if they can get the return they want. If it's 1st? Done. If it's 2nd? No reason to trade him now, when it's likely you can get that year from now. 2nd + another pick? Ehhh... that's tough. I'd do 2 2nd rounders. 2nd + 3rd would be a tough choice.

Charlie Lindgren
* Goalie market is kind of weird now. I think there would be lots of teams interested in Lindgren, but that said, i don't think there is a team who would pay a 1st for him since he hasn't been a starter for long and he doesn't have any Playoff experience. I'm not sure it's worth it to move him for less than that unless you are tanking next season.

Nick Jensen
* Again, depends on the offers. Does he return a 1st? I'd move him for 1st without retention. I might move him for 2nd + 3rd without retention. If it's with retention... i don't think just 1st would be enough for me to waste a retention slot for 2½ years.

Trevor van Riemsdyk
* I'll keep this short. I think Jensen has more value than him on the market. I wouldn't want to move them both now. That's why i think TvR likely stays.

Max Pacioretty - UFA
* Depends on what he wants to do. Does he want to get traded? If so, it's easy to move him. If he's 50-50, explore the market. I'd say the threshold in that scenario to move him would be 3rd rounder. That's what i'd move him for if a team where he wanted to go would offer that. If he wants to stay, i'd be happy to keep him, but honestly, i doubt it.

Beck Malenstyn
* Included him here since he's been mentioned. He's an RFA and a player i'd like to keep. No reason not to atleast listen though if someone wants to grossly overpay.



Wishful thinking -dump:

Darcy Kuemper
* Like i said, goalie market is weird right now. Would a team take him given he has experience as a Cup -winning goalie? I doubt it, but i'd definitely explore that and atleast call the Devils if they had any interest in that if they don't get Markstrom. It would be great to get rid of this contract and move along with Lindgren/Stevenson -tandem.

Evgeny Kuznetsov
* Who knows? I don't think this is happening at the TDL. I wouldn't rule out him being traded in the summer though, after his bonus is paid. Him retained for a guy like Armia? Habs love their reclamation projects and Monahan worked out well. Otherwise, it's buy-out time.


Targets:

TBL 2026 1st rounder (Package deal? Jensen+MaxPac? I'd love it. Tampa isn't going to be good in 2026)

Arthur Kaliyev

Casey Mittelstadt

2024 2nd rounder (we don't have one)

2024/2025 1st rounder

Martin Necas (more of a summer target)

Noah Hanifin (Summer target, i wouldn't pay assets for him)



I didn't include Aube-Kubel as Carberry seems to like him as a part of the 4th line, and i don't think he'd return enough (3rd) to justify moving him.​
 
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Roshi

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I would move Lindgren for 2nd at this point. He has done great this season, but doesnt seem as a long term option as he is already in his 30's and if he keeps his current level he is in for a big raise. Also having Kuemper with 3 more years to go, and Stevenson brewing and Shephard propably ready to step in as backup right away. And if he doesnt keep his current level, well, this is the high point on selling him. But anything less than a 2nd and its an easy decision.

Obviously would want to move Kuemper before Lindgren no matter the return, but thats not likely to happen. Kuemper is just too mediocre currently for someone to jump on that term left.

I was opposed moving Dowd for anything less than a 1st earlier, but seeing Lapierre, Sgarbossa and Protas all doing well while Dowd being injured, im leaning on accepting less. Dowd can likely return a 2nd, or couple later picks next at next years TDL too, but maybe it holds some value to open his spot for our internal options aswell. Right now im ok either way, keeping him or trading him, as long as a possible trade atleast isnt less than a 2nd and hopefully a +.

I do not want Mantha back next year. And even if we believe this is who he is going forward and would entertain him coming back, we can round back to it in the summer as he is very likely going for free agency anyways. But if you want to extend, the best way is to offer him 'take it or leave it' right now with a two day deadline, and then go shopping him hard if he doesnt take it. Im also fine keeping him as our own rental if the return isnt atleast 2nd+, but we need to atleast try to get the max value out of him when we have the chance.

If its true that Jensen is getting interest, we should listen. This has been a down year, Im not sure I want to wait to see if it is just a phase or a trend, because if its a trend you are not getting interest at next years TDL anymore. Maybe he doesnt fit Carbery's system and isnt as good as he was because of that? Or just getting the age and miles? BM has been finding these Jensens and TVR's and Kempnys and the list goes on, so im not overly worried he couldnt replace Jensen from free agency or a dumpster bin bargain with the 4 mil cap hit he has.

Pacioretty is easy. If he wants to stay you keep him, if he wants to go you trade to whereever he wants to go and the return doesnt really matter. Thats doing a solid for well respected veteran and the return is not "much" in any case. That will help us signing more well respected veterans in the future. And we are at a place where we can use well respected veterans for both, campaigning for desperate battle to playoffs in 2025, and going through retool/rebuild in 2028-2050.

Edmundson is the most obvious one. Suprised if there isnt some team willing to throw a 3rd or atleast a 4th for the qualities Edmundson brings for a playoffs-run, and you just take it. He isnt really missed in the lineup, you gain a pick, and get to give games for AA/Bear , who both need it.

Noone is offering anything for Kuznetsov. Period. We can stop dreaming about that. Thats a mess that will wait to be solved (or remain unsolved) in the summer. We see what happens when he shows up to Hershey and go from there.

Wouldnt be suprised if someone offers up a 6th or 7th for NAK aswell. Fine either way, taking or not taking it. Malenstyn we should keep, as he is familiar face and known force for all the guys who are coming up from Hershey. And an example that we trust and reward our own Hershey guys. Not interested at all trading him for a "whocares"-pick.

Bubbling under, they might be open for a bigger trade that would include players who we dont think are going anywhere. CMM and Lappy kind of compete for the same spot, sorts of. Alexeyev hasnt taken his regular spot. Fehervary is a piece that would bring solid value in a big time hockey trade, and is kind of in a spot where we dont still really know what we have in him. Etc. One thing thats propable, is that not a lot of these "young guys" that have just cracked the roster are going to be there through the whole retool/rebuild anyways, as they are couple years early with their entrance. They will be older and they will be RFA's and UFA's and through couple more TDLs and drafts before we get there, so even if they are doing some progress and just making their way to NHL, they propably shouldnt be seen as "core pieces" or "untouchables" at this point. If the right deal comes around.. --> but all this is not as much a TDL thing, something like this normally goes down at the summer.

Edit. for overall idea, I dont have a problem if we decide to go for the desperation chance of pushing it to the playoffs and would love to see us making it. But in general im aware of the mathematics and being realistic about it im ready to emotionally give up for the season and regroup our assets. We had some nice moments and it wasnt that far off that we could have made it with a lot of positives on some younger guys getting their feet wet and even successing in the NHL, but this just wasnt our season. Next summer is interesting as we have a lot of flexibility and playing our cards right we have potential to gain a lot of both, draft capital and other pieces to work out to strenghtening the roster also for both, next year and future beyond that.

For the max values we could gain;

Mantha @50% + a 3rd --> 1st
Dowd @50% --> 2x 2nd + with conditions to get more or higher picks
Lindgren --> 2nd
Jensen --> 2nd + 3rd or something around that
Edmundsson --> 3rd
NAK --> 6th

For next year that would leave us with

Ovie-Strome-x
x-x-Wilson
Milano-CMM-Oshie
Protas-Lapierre-Malenstyn
Sgarbossa

Fehervary-Carlson
Sandin-x
TvR-Bear
Alexeyv

Kuemper
Shephard/Stevenson

with around 17 millions to spend.
And with a 10x top60 pick for the next two years.
 
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IafrateOvie34

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May 14, 2009
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I'm for smart trades that improve the team in the future. If teams are willing to overpay for players, let them have it for the right price. The faster Carberry gets a younger team, the better.

Oh I want to keep Malenstyn. I'm not surprised if teams inquire about him because he hustles.
 
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