Tortorella is a Problem, Part II

[ddawg1950]

Apparently many of these contracts carry language against embarrassing the team, franchise and brand.

I would say push come to shove I've seen the Aquilini's in court for less.

I think you may well be right.

But I also think the optics of not paying out a coach's contract for nothing less than criminal behaviour seems unlikely.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

I think you may well be right.

But I also think the optics of not paying out a coach's contract for nothing less than criminal behaviour seems unlikely.

Very true. It will be interesting. In the hockey world its definitely a line that hasn't been crossed, to my knowledge.

Speaking of litigation and wetcoaster, apparently the Canucks ex sports psychologist is suing the team right now...

 

[Ernie]

I somehow doubt they can make a morality clause case after allowing him to continue coaching for almost 4 months.

 

[Ernie]

great post - thanks for this analysis. it makes a lot of sense to me.

Not a good post, considering he didn't answer the question.

 

[ddawg1950]

Very true. It will be interesting. In the hockey world its definitely a line that hasn't been crossed, to my knowledge.

Speaking of litigation and wetcoaster, apparently the Canucks ex sports psychologist is suing the team right now...

Well...

That's just crazy!

 

[FAMOUSfin]

No, I was asking what style he coached when he won a cup, not what he currently coaches now.

And it was previously asserted that he hasn't changed that style. Throwing a 'safe is death' label onto it was probably appropriate for the dead puck era. Look at all the odd man chances we've given up.

edit

And they haven't only been aggressive in the offensive zone either. A look at last night's PK with 4 players surrounding the puck and not a single one in front of the net shows you just how aggressive they'll get in puck pursuit in their own zone. That doesn't change the fact that they're neglecting play in the neutral zone.

 

[Ernie]

And it was previously asserted that he hasn't changed that style. Throwing a 'safe is death' label onto it was probably appropriate for the dead puck era. Look at all the odd man chances we've given up.

edit

And they haven't only been aggressive in the offensive zone either. A look at last night's PK with 4 players surrounding the puck and not a single one in front of the net shows you just how aggressive they'll get in puck pursuit in their own zone. That doesn't change the fact that they're neglecting play in the neutral zone.

Who asserted that?

How old were you in 2004? Do you even remember the "Dead Puck" era?

Tortorella's style was considered the most open in the league. More like teams from the 90's.

I'm firmly on the "Fire Torts" bandwagon or whatever, but let's try to be accurate here. My guess is that the style he coaches now is more of a Mike Sullivan style than a John Tortorella style.

 

[FAMOUSfin]

Who asserted that?

I did in the post you originally replied to. It's conjecture but from what I've seen and reasoned it seems to be well supported.

How old were you in 2004? Do you even remember the "Dead Puck" era?

Tortorella's style was considered the most open in the league. More like teams from the 90's.

I'm firmly on the "Fire Torts" bandwagon or whatever, but let's try to be accurate here. My guess is that the style he coaches now is more of a Mike Sullivan style than a John Tortorella style.

Can't say that I do but from what I've watched of the 2004 Lightning, which admittedly isn't much, it's definitely not a Ron Wilson run-and-gun style of hockey. Same 2-1-2 and aggressive pinching. I only watched a single period in which they were pretty dominant so I didn't see much of their defensive play. They did a lot of controlled breakouts, though not starting from as deep in their own zone due to the extend that the other team (Calgary) relied on the trap.

edit

Also, 'open' because they aren't clogging up the neutral zone.

 

[B-rock]

Who asserted that?

How old were you in 2004? Do you even remember the "Dead Puck" era?

Tortorella's style was considered the most open in the league. More like teams from the 90's.

I'm firmly on the "Fire Torts" bandwagon or whatever, but let's try to be accurate here. My guess is that the style he coaches now is more of a Mike Sullivan style than a John Tortorella style.

Good constructive post, I don't see any antagonism here....

 

[Ernie]

I did in the post you originally replied to. It's conjecture but from what I've seen and reasoned it seems to be well supported.



Can't say that I do but from what I've watched of the 2004 Lightning, which admittedly isn't much, it's definitely not a Ron Wilson run-and-gun style of hockey. Same 2-1-2 and aggressive pinching. I only watched a single period in which they were pretty dominant so I didn't see much of their defensive play. They did a lot of controlled breakouts, though not starting from as deep in their own zone due to the extend that the other team (Calgary) relied on the trap.

edit

Also, 'open' because they aren't clogging up the neutral zone.

You're basing this off of a single period of hockey that you watched?

It's a total misconception that teams only played a defensive style of hockey in the "dead puck" era. The top teams mostly didn't. A large part of the league did because they didn't have the talent to otherwise be competitive. But aside from New Jersey, it only delivered mediocre results.

If anything, the league is more defensive across the board now than in the past. If you don't have some defensive elements in your game, you're gonna get blown out like the Oilers. The Wings under Scotty Bowman pioneered the type of hybrid system we see most teams employ today - which was called the left wing lock at the time.

 

[Ernie]

Good constructive post, I don't see any antagonism here....

I have little patience for outright fabrications.

 

[FAMOUSfin]

You're basing this off of a single period of hockey that you watched?

It's a total misconception that teams only played a defensive style of hockey in the "dead puck" era. The top teams mostly didn't. A large part of the league did because they didn't have the talent to otherwise be competitive. But aside from New Jersey, it only delivered mediocre results.

If anything, the league is more defensive across the board now than in the past. If you don't have some defensive elements in your game, you're gonna get blown out like the Oilers. The Wings under Scotty Bowman pioneered the type of hybrid system we see most teams employ today - which was called the left wing lock at the time.

Painting a team as either 'defensive' or 'offensive' is really ambiguous. A team could play a Guy Boucher style 1-3-1 neutral zone trap but have forwards blow the zone early. Are they more defensive or offensive than a team which is aggressive in puck pursuit at both ends of the ice: playing an aggressive forecheck and bringing forwards low to support puck battles?

So what exactly made Tortorella's system fall under a 'safe is death' label? Since he's come to Vancouver, he's preached highly aggressive puck pursuit. A quasi-'don't hold anything back'. In terms of puck pursuit, you could certainly make the case that Tortorella is still teaching 'safe is death' hockey.

 

[Ernie]

Painting a team as either 'defensive' or 'offensive' is really ambiguous. A team could play a Guy Boucher style 1-3-1 neutral zone trap but have forwards blow the zone early. Are they more defensive or offensive than a team which is aggressive in puck pursuit at both ends of the ice: playing an aggressive forecheck and bringing forwards low to support puck battles?

So what exactly made Tortorella's system fall under a 'safe is death' label? Since he's come to Vancouver, he's preached highly aggressive puck pursuit. A quasi-'don't hold anything back'. In terms of puck pursuit, you could certainly make the case that Tortorella is still teaching 'safe is death' hockey.

What made Tortorella's system "safe is death" was the way the team would rush the puck and pressure in the offensive zone. Lots of turnovers but they forced other teams to skate with them and won.

The Canucks do employ a two man forecheck (at times) but there isn't much else that resembles the 2004 Lightning.

 

[FAMOUSfin]

What made Tortorella's system "safe is death" was the way the team would rush the puck and pressure in the offensive zone. Lots of turnovers but they forced other teams to skate with them and won.

The Canucks do employ a two man forecheck (at times) but there isn't much else that resembles the 2004 Lightning.

I have your word to go on that. By Tortorella's own admission, he instituted a chase-type system (http://business.highbeam.com/62653/...reigns-flames-and-lightning-owe-their-success). Since I'm not about to go watch and compile clips for a whole season of hockey, I guess we'll never truly know.

 

[Ernie]

I have your word to go on that. By Tortorella's own admission, he instituted a chase-type system (http://business.highbeam.com/62653/...reigns-flames-and-lightning-owe-their-success). Since I'm not about to go watch and compile clips for a whole season of hockey, I guess we'll never truly know.

No, but in 10 years maybe you'll be able to look back and tell people what hockey was like in 2014. Yay for getting old.

 

[dave babych returns]

I somehow doubt they can make a morality clause case after allowing him to continue coaching for almost 4 months.

I can just see the Canucks braintrust, mulling over how to regroup and move on after a disastrous season, and settling on the best option being a totally unprecedented attempt to void the contract of their head coach in a maneuver that would almost certainly end up in the courts..

We'd probably have no choice but to let Travis whats-his-name run our bench after that, the thought of signing a contract with the Canucks would turn any established head coach green around the gills!

 

[PhilMick]

So is it a pretty good chance Trotz will be available this off season? Aquaman needs to make that happen. Gotta wonder if the team would look more attractive to Trotz without Gillis as GM.

 

[Caspian]

So is it a pretty good chance Trotz will be available this off season? Aquaman needs to make that happen. Gotta wonder if the team would look more attractive to Trotz without Gillis as GM.

If fans/management/players don't like Tortorella's style of coaching then I don't understand how Trotz is candidate. Read why Preds fans want Trotz gone.

He would be a horrid fit just like Torts.

 

[PhilMick]

If fans/management/players don't like Tortorella's style of coaching then I don't understand how Trotz is candidate. Read why Preds fans want Trotz gone.

He would be a horrid fit just like Torts.

Forgive the metaphor mixing, but I see Trotz as a guy making passable chicken salad out of chicken ****, while Torts is taking round pegs and screaming at them until they jam themselves into square holes.

 

[tc 23]

Forgive the metaphor mixing, but I see Trotz as a guy making passable chicken salad out of chicken ****, while Torts is taking round pegs and screaming at them until they jam themselves into square holes.

Trotz has his concerns as well. Del Zotto has been a frequent healthy scratch because he doesn't play "Nashville-style defense", when Poile got him to provide offense.

 

[KeninsFan]

If fans/management/players don't like Tortorella's style of coaching then I don't understand how Trotz is candidate. Read why Preds fans want Trotz gone.

He would be a horrid fit just like Torts.

Tortz like AV can change his style dependent on his personnel.

The season the Preds acquired Peter Forsberg to play with Kariya they were an offensive orientated team. I would love him as a coach.

 

[Ernie]

Trotz has his concerns as well. Del Zotto has been a frequent healthy scratch because he doesn't play "Nashville-style defense", when Poile got him to provide offense.

But that's the second coach in a single season that has felt that way about Del Zotto. Maybe he's just a bad player? Or he's capable of playing zone defense but not man-to-man?

Vigneault certainly had no problem playing Bieksa, Edler, or Ehrhoff.

I don't know if Trotz is the answer. But he sure hasn't had any kind of quality forwards to work with over the past 5 years. Unlike Tortorella, he doesn't have a history of having players significantly underperform while he's been coaching them.

 

[VanillaCoke]

With gilly getting the axe in favour of torts I fully expect him to be the coach next season. Realistically he wasn't great this year but I'm more than willing to give him another season to rectify his mistakes.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

I see Torts as a major reason Gillis got the axe, If Torts had done better Gillis would still be here.

 

[Smokey McCanucks]

I think that the key question here is, did this team underachieve this year? For me, I don't see how you can make the argument that this was an underachieving team. With what he had to work with throughout the season, I don't think you can look at that roster and the injuries that they had and the suspensions, the situation they were in with realignment, and the way things just seemed to go wrong at the most inopportune times all year, I don't think a different coaching staff would have made a lick of difference. Torts gave it what he had and I for one am not gonna criticize him, they were up against it all year and if he had them playing a boring style it was because that was the only way to keep that team competitive. I expect Torts back for another season, I don't think it's smart to be firing a coach after one season, even a season that didn't go very well, he deserves a chance to show he can do more and I think that Torts can get this team back to the playoffs next season.