Tortorella is a Problem, Part II

[SoupNazi]

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[opendoor]

GF/G is higher this year (2.64 vs 2.62 in 2012-13). The difference is GA/G (2.38 this year vs. 2.25 last year).

Lindqvist's SV% has gone from .926 to .918

Scoring can fluctuate leaguewide year to year so I was going by ranking. They had the 15th best offense last year and were only 0.11 G/G out of the top 10. This year they're 18th and are 0.20 G/G out of the top 10.

 

[MikeK]

I think there's a lot of blame to go around this season. I think there is a good chance Torts lost half the room when he flew off the handle and stormed at the CGY room. I think his in your face style also rubbed players the wrong way and was hard for them to take after having been under AV's arm for so long. It is quite the culture change. Still though, most of the core players didn't show up this year. At the end of the day these players are responsible for their play when on the ice and it's hard to defend the players this year as their play has been that of the AHL level.

 

[FAMOUSfin]

Vigneault had a really good system that fit this team well. It struck a good balance between playing a defensive game and transitioning quickly into offense. The issue with the performance of the team had more to do with personnel issues. After 2010-2011, he did start bringing forwards deeper back into the zone and they were relied on to make more breakout passes (probably because of the loss of Ehrhoff). Unfortunately, we didn't really have right shooting right wingers and so more often than not, the guys with top 6 skill like Burrows would be forced to chip the puck out rather than make a clean pass (edit: also was one of Newell Brown's big complaints about the PP, see here). I'm also wondering whether Henrik has lost a step due to the back injury he suffered in the 2010-2011 playoffs - maybe he's aggravated it again (edit: rib injury would do it too)? I notice that when he's setting up behind the net and an opposing player comes in to flush him out, he gets checked much more often than he used to. Example:

Blues are collapsing heavily in that instance and so Henrik can't make a play. But Bouwmeester(19) is going to go chase Henrik behind the net. Steen(20) is going to head towards the halfboards and take away that passing option/prevent him from setting up on the halfboards. That leaves a 2v2 in front of the net. That's a good opportunity for us. However, Henrik's pass gets disrupted by Bouwmeester of all people. If Henrik had been just a little faster, he wouldn't have let Bouwmeester get that kind of positioning on him. But I digress.

Vigneault did a good job but it was time for a change of scenery regardless of personnel issues. Enter Tortorella. We blamed AV for being too defensively minded. When AV arrived in NY, he was heralded as an offensive coach. Neither assessment is entirely accurate but it gives you an idea of just how defensively minded Tortorella is. Forwards are brought even lower than after AV's adjustment. Options for quick transitions are severely limited. The modus operandi of our transition game is now to begin a controlled breakout from behind our own net and then dump and chase. It's not nearly threatening enough to be the main go-to option for transitioning into offense. And it's not like we've suddenly become defensive stalwarts either. There's only so much that an extra forward collapsing to the slot can contribute to the defensive play. He's basically there to block shots and to be a failsafe but most of the time is just redundant and would contribute more if he could provide an easy breakout option. For every time that a failsafe breaks up a scoring chance, how many times do we fail to breakout of our zone and relieve the offensive pressure?

I don't know how Stevens has earned a reputation as a defensively-minded coach. A comparison between the Vigneault coached 2010-2011 Canucks vs the Stevens coached 2007-2008 Flyers playing out a similar situation:

If Stevens is brought in, I would hope that he would use a slightly more defensive approach.

 

[Nucker101]

LeBrun on SC just said he's likely gone.

 

[Bure All Day]

I think there's a lot of blame to go around this season. I think there is a good chance Torts lost half the room when he flew off the handle and stormed at the CGY room. I think his in your face style also rubbed players the wrong way and was hard for them to take after having been under AV's arm for so long. It is quite the culture change. Still though, most of the core players didn't show up this year. At the end of the day these players are responsible for their play when on the ice and it's hard to defend the players this year as their play has been that of the AHL level.

That's how I feel, hard to blame the coach when your best players, (Sedins, Kes, and Burr) dont show up. Their drop in production is completely inexcusable, nothing Torts has done can account for once upon a time 100+ point players scoring at a 50 pt pace only a few years later.

 

[Wisp]

That's how I feel, hard to blame the coach when your best players, (Sedins, Kes, and Burr) dont show up.

Right now, Kesler and Bieksa only have two legs between them, Burrows his thumb. Henrik went through a stretch with his ribs. these guys are futiliy giving it their all because they think they can save the season but they shouldn't even be playing.

 

[Bure All Day]

'core players didn't show up.' most of the core players are playing through injury right now. Henrik went through an awful stretch with his ribs. Right now, Kesler and Bieksa are on one leg, Burrows his thumb.

These are just excuses, the fact is their production fell off a ****ing cliff. At no point this year, other than Burr for the last few games, have any of them looked like their former selves. Granted age has a part to play, but still, you'd think they'd have had a few stretches where they play at a high level. I haven't seen that at all from any of them.

How many multi-point games have the Sedins had this year? How many 3+ point games? They used to have them all the time, now they're lucky to get on the board at all.

Edit: Bieksa has had some good stretches, but he is notorious for being inconsistent so that is expected.. the forwards have been brutal

 

[Wisp]

These are just excuses,

I hate this stupid talk. Saying 'no excuses' is a dumb justification for a dumb argument. Health matters. It's a factor. Kesler and Bieksa have one leg. You play worse with one good leg. You play worse bruised ribs (Henrik). You play worse when you're injured six times a year (Burrows).

In any case, good coaches make chicken salad out of chicken ****. A coach that can't, that is only buried by adversity, isn't good enough for the aspirations I have for this team.

 

[opendoor]

'core players didn't show up.' most of the core players are playing through injury right now. Henrik went through an awful stretch with his ribs. Right now, Kesler and Bieksa are on one leg, Burrows his thumb.

That still doesn't change the thrust of the argument that the drop off in the core players' production (regardless of the reason) is the primary difference between this year's offense and that of prior years.

In the 7 years under Vigneault, the bottom 3 lines and the 2nd unit PP generated an average of 1.44 goals per game. This year they're generating 1.40 goals per game. Unfortunately the 1st line has gone from 1.62 G/G in 10-11 and dropped off every year all the way down to 0.96 G/G this year. As far as I'm aware there are only 3 or 4 teams in the league whose 1st line doesn't generate at least a goal per game and the Canucks are one of them.

 

[Bure All Day]

I hate this stupid talk. Saying 'no excuses' is a dumb justification for a dumb argument. Health matters. It's a factor. Kesler and Bieksa have one leg. You play worse with one good leg. You play worse bruised ribs (Henrik). You play worse when you're injured six times a year (Burrows).

In any case, good coaches make chicken salad out of chicken ****. A coach that can't, that is only buried by adversity, isn't good enough for the aspirations I have for this team.

Saying Kesler is playing on one leg is a complete exaggeration and borderline fabrication and lie. You are just trying to justify there failures by saying it was the injuries.

Crosby has had multiple concussions and plays through injuries all the time. He's played every game this season. You don't think he's had to play through some injuries? Yet he manages to play at a higher level than anyone else in the league.

Steve Yzerman played through the playoffs with a shattered knee, one that was so bad it caused him to miss the first half of the following season, yet he endured through the entire playoffs and scored 23 points in 23 games.

Mario Lemieux had chronic back pain, eventually leading to cancer, and played at a higher level than anyone else in the league for years on end. Even after coming back from cancer and multiple surgeries, he still managed to dominate the league at the age of 40(ish).

INJURIES ARE ****ING EXCUSES

 

[Wisp]

yeah and I attribute much of that drop off to systems, usage, and disintegrating depth. I think assuming that everyone decided to quit is not realistic given the circumstances, especially given the systems discussion that started in the press with Vigneault's return to town.

 

[Wisp]

INJURIES ARE ****ING EXCUSES

Comparing Burrows and Kesler to Lemieux and Crosby and this years Canucks to those championship quality teams doesn't help your argument.

 

[B-rock]

Saying Kesler is playing on one leg is a complete exaggeration and borderline fabrication and lie. You are just trying to justify there failures by saying it was the injuries.

Crosby has had multiple concussions and plays through injuries all the time. He's played every game this season. You don't think he's had to play through some injuries? Yet he manages to play at a higher level than anyone else in the league.

Steve Yzerman played through the playoffs with a shattered knee, one that was so bad it caused him to miss the first half of the following season, yet he endured through the entire playoffs and scored 23 points in 23 games.

Mario Lemieux had chronic back pain, eventually leading to cancer, and played at a higher level than anyone else in the league for years on end. Even after coming back from cancer and multiple surgeries, he still managed to dominate the league at the age of 40(ish).

INJURIES ARE ****ING EXCUSES

LOL, great examples. 2 of the very best players to ever play the game and Yzerman not far behind.

 

[FAMOUSfin]

From Lebrun,

Tortorella could be out
Even though he still has four years and $8 million left on his deal, I think it is more than likely that John Tortorella will be fired as head coach after the season in Vancouver.

I like Torts, but he was never the right fit for that team.

The Canucks built a blue-line corps meant for a quick transition game, but the club has played more of a chip and chase, shot-blocking game this year. As one NHL scout told ESPN.com, "The wrong system for that set of players."

The real question in Vancouver is whether that’s going to be enough change. I suspect ownership continues to debate internally whether or not to fire GM Mike Gillis and that’s really going to be the biggest decision of all.

Personally, I would allow Gillis at least one more year to re-direct the ship, I think he’s earned that.

Gillis, by the way, also had four more years on his contract…

 

[Wisp]

Did you even read what I just said? How can you justify anything you are saying? I give multiple examples of cases where players battle and still pay at a high level through injuries, and you ignore it and say "lol still *********"....

Yeah great argument bud.

You're using Hall of Famers playing on dynasty teams and comparing them to Burrows and Kesler and the Canucks. You're simplifying things to a delusional will of supermen. Think about it. Have you competed through a sports injury before? I can run with a bum leg and a bad back - have run with a bum leg and a bad back - but I am an slower, less effective, and certainly more miserable runner in that state.

Childishly shouting 'injuries are excuses!' is bananas. Health matters, depth matters, delusions of supermen aside. It affects performance! and you know what? coaching matters too. Look at Babcock work past injuries, weaker conference aside. Look at Torts drown in his own failures.

 

[WinterEmpire]

From Lebrun,

Oh so it's all complete speculation? yawn

 

[Wisp]

Oh so it's all complete speculation? yawn

as I said in the last Tortorella thread...

"Pffff who cares what this writer says! He's dumb!" loses it's impact when that's how at least one person seems to react that way every time an article is posted.

LeBrun is actually one of the few guys who has sources with in Vancouver these days.

 

[Wisp]

the money quote...

The Canucks built a blue-line corps meant for a quick transition game, but the club has played more of a chip and chase, shot-blocking game this year. As one NHL scout told ESPN.com, "The wrong system for that set of players."

 

[David71]

so its a given torts might be gone by the end of the year.

 

[Raincouver]

AV vs Torts...

From players:


Lundqvist says AV system "gives us the ability to have more speed coming out of the zone."




“Torts obviously talks way more than Alain did. He comes in the room way more, but the biggest thing is, Alain was more rational in his decisions and they were based on the past or stats. Torts is more gut feeling, and he’ll tell you he has a feeling in his stomach and ‘I’m going to shake up my lines’ or call this play. For the most part, Alain let us decide how we wanted to play as a team. He manages his bench well and they (Rangers) seem to be rolling four lines, and they’ll be a dangerous team in the playoffs.â€

-Alex Burrows

 

[ddawg1950]

so its a given torts might be gone by the end of the year.

Not a given.

But who would be surprised?

 

[David71]

Not a given.

But who would be surprised?

would aquaman be willing to still pay torts salary even if hes fired. I still want torts to stay. he gets another shot. but its up to gillis job to supply the players that fit his style. or else find a john stevens or guy boucher.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

I guess I will actually take time to post something with substance lol.

This is from players on the team, and if you have been around hockey watch for it.
Here is why Torts system doesn't work with this team.

Blocking shots.....this is THE most over hyped thing since he came here. EVERY team blocks shots when the opportunity is there. When AV was coach, nobody stepped out of the way of blocking shots if they could lol. Nobody on ANY team does that, all teams now have players in lanes instead of sticks in lanes, its just a defacto of hockey now BUT the difference is this. Torts has asked his players to block shots by collapsing on the puck. Chris Tanev and Alex Burrows have gotten injured because of this style and to an extend Sedin and Kesler as well. He wants players to drop body in front of shot, instead of taking a lane away and standing up. Vigneault forced PK to wear skate guards because most of the shots were off shins and lower. A shot off the shin really doesnt hurt unless someone has time to really tee it up. Having players drop on the puck has and will lead to injuries with broken bones more so that squaring a guy up standing which is what AV asked them to do, but was never publicized as much as Torts. The reason why Torts teams block alot of shots is because they dont have the puck as often as the opposition. Leads me to point 2.

Sedins like Torts, and the ice time, but are not happy with being asked to take the puck over center and dump it in. Its literally neutralized Henrik. Henrick was actually a high risk/high reward type puck carrier, most times it worked out. Asking one of the most creative passers in the game to dump a puck in and retrieve instead of making a pass over a defenders stick or thru his legs for fear of turnover makes the sedins......well.....the sedins of this year. This is confirmed by someone very close with the team, also Ferrarro commented on it in a 1040 interview. Torts wants the puck to go 200 feet.....Hank and Dank need to play with puck possession, just simple fact. They are frustrated.

2 man forecheck.....not used my many teams anymore. The 2-1 high-2 is ONLY effective with forwards with speed, canucks aren't really that team. Very easy to defend this type of forecheck nowadays, its easily sniffed out, leading to way too many odd man rushes if it doesnt work, most times it doesnt. AV had a 1-2-2 which is not as 'exciting' but WAY more structured.

Defensemen activating. One of the most under talked about changes Torts has employed. Guys like Juice, Edler like to activate strong side, they have been told not too. a '50/50 puck' the defender ALWAYS has to skate back and jockey and wait for 3rd man high to backcheck. It sucks to be honest. Canucks made their hay for years with strong side (why AV liked having proper handed defensmen play their strong sides) Defemsmen keeping the play active by pinching. YES we used to see some blunders causing a 2-1 the other way under AV but the pros (which we dont see/talk about) outweigh the cons. The twins offense has been tempered by not having D activate and keeping pucks alive. The Erhoff, Juice, Edler days of keeping that puck in, tiring out opposition and twins out waiting etc are done now because of Torts.

Using aging Sedins to penalty kill. Really its Torts trying to make a headline, like usual. The canucks are FULL of Penalty killers lol. 9 forwards worth to be honest. AV put the twins in a position to exceed with mainly offensive zone starts. Having them chase a puck and block shots for 45 seconds only to go even strength and throw Dave Booth, Zack Dalpe, and Jannik Hansen is ridiculous. Still very very good players in their own right, but they need to play a certain type of game to do this. Torts is not sedin-friendly

Defesive Battles.....watch for this one. Quite mind boggling actually. 90% of coaches teach a defensman to 'take the man in to the boards defensively and pin him, second man in takes puck. Always first man body, second man puck. Torts does not use this style and it boggles me. Its proven, it works. He wants D to hold puck and then move puck. Its a recipe to get painted to the glass, lose the puck, and confuse the goalie. so unorthodox, and not sure why broadcasters have not picked up on this, the players have, that I know.


Anyways, this is a Veteran team, Torts is absolutely the wrong man for the job.

Outside of that, GMMG is a whole other issue. Went from having best goaltending tandem to mediocre to bad one....Got nothing in return for Good assets....stripped Kes and made him unhappy, etc etc etc. its been a circus since GMMG has been here.

 

[FAMOUSfin]

The only scenario in which I can see Tortorella staying is if we blow up the team and go full rebuild instead of retooling on the fly. Personally, I don't want to see a full rebuild. Creates too many holes on the roster and makes it really difficult to put a complete team back together.