Post-Game Talk: TORONTO @ OTTAWA | That was uh... bad

[Pookie]

maybe not. but every fan after 2002 and the strike wanted it tore down not patched back together. first time the players screwed us. (musk 5)

from 2002 and beyond its all on management this team was patched together more times then your first bike tire...

through bad trades for over the hill players(Leetch Nolan), Hell even unproven ones. due to inpatients (Rycroft for Rask or Steen and carco for stempniak who then we traded for 20c on the dollar) toskala trade should also be mentioned

then burke showed up and underestimated how good the team was finished 8th last. second year burke over estimates how good we will be and sells 2 firsts off to Boston. impeding the rebuild for another 2 years. which hurts more because rumor was the cost was kaberle + 7TH(kadri) pick at the draft

Burke also doesn't pay attention to the league, which is changing from a bruising to skilled, less hitting, No fighting less aggressive and Faster League. He goes and wastes 2 drafts picking primarily large bruising forwards. (not all **** we got loov and brown)

then comes nonis. who pretty much placed us in cap hell. wasting our free buyouts. hell even just grabo, he completely mismanaged the cap signed some of the worst f/a . then we get too Kessel and Phaneuf instead of trading them and starting the rebuild then, he goes and resigns them to albatross contracts. Signs Clarkson to "a top 5" worst contracts of all time. gets rid of it which was really his only good feat during his tenure. I may have *****ed about burke but atleast he had balls when it came to negotiating it seemed nonis just gave them a check. Shanahan gets hired

the only positive memory I have of nonis was at the last draft. him walking up to the mic looking like a dead man walking. trembled some when he drafted nylander lol

Then the world came down, 90% of scouts and management fired over the next 2 years. young smart new gen asgm comes in named dubas. starts the recruitment for the best in analytics, names Mark hunter Head of development and scouting. hires all new scouts we then proceed revamp the marlies and minors management hired babs then lou

we just previously had on paper one of our best drafts in history.(after year one)

what it comes down too in the end. We are in year 2 of our rebuild when we should be finished and competing. However on that note I think that's why we are so excited about the rebuild. we have never actually seen one first hand.

at first glance it also looks like we have cheated by having the hunters and the best scouts money can buy. Our scouting staff probably cost as much as most teams coaching staffs

but sometimes its not about if its about the when that matters.

I apologize. 7 am sobering up rant. started as a reply and just kept going

Burke may have misjudged but this ownership group… led by the MLSE Board and driven by Tim Leiweke and implemented by Shanahan and Nonis… also misjudged this team from the outset.

They aimed for competing for the playoffs. Failed. Then had no choice but to torch it to the ground.

You talk about misjudgments. That was the last year that a 30th overall finish would have guaranteed one of Eichel or McDavid. And may be the last time in a decade that a player like McDavid becomes available.

The Leafs have never… never ever supported the idea that a quick fix couldn't solve their problems. The mantra has always been "we will compete for the playoffs" and hopes pinned on the latest UFA or trade.

To say fans were on board with losing way back in the 2000's or 1990's… those paying for season tickets on the heels of forking over 50k+ for Personal Seat Licenses… is mis-remembering as far as I am concerned.

 

[Cor]

maybe not. but every fan after 2002 and the strike wanted it tore down not patched back together. first time the players screwed us. (musk 5)

from 2002 and beyond its all on management this team was patched together more times then your first bike tire...

through bad trades for over the hill players(Leetch Nolan), Hell even unproven ones. due to inpatients (Rycroft for Rask or Steen and carco for stempniak who then we traded for 20c on the dollar) toskala trade should also be mentioned

then burke showed up and underestimated how good the team was finished 8th last. second year burke over estimates how good we will be and sells 2 firsts off to Boston. impeding the rebuild for another 2 years. which hurts more because rumor was the cost was kaberle + 7TH(kadri) pick at the draft

Burke also doesn't pay attention to the league, which is changing from a bruising to skilled, less hitting, No fighting less aggressive and Faster League. He goes and wastes 2 drafts picking primarily large bruising forwards. (not all **** we got loov and brown)

then comes nonis. who pretty much placed us in cap hell. wasting our free buyouts. hell even just grabo, he completely mismanaged the cap signed some of the worst f/a . then we get too Kessel and Phaneuf instead of trading them and starting the rebuild then, he goes and resigns them to albatross contracts. Signs Clarkson to "a top 5" worst contracts of all time. gets rid of it which was really his only good feat during his tenure. I may have *****ed about burke but atleast he had balls when it came to negotiating it seemed nonis just gave them a check. Shanahan gets hired

the only positive memory I have of nonis was at the last draft. him walking up to the mic looking like a dead man walking. trembled some when he drafted nylander lol

Then the world came down, 90% of scouts and management fired over the next 2 years. young smart new gen asgm comes in named dubas. starts the recruitment for the best in analytics, names Mark hunter Head of development and scouting. hires all new scouts we then proceed revamp the marlies and minors management hired babs then lou

we just previously had on paper one of our best drafts in history.(after year one)

what it comes down too in the end. We are in year 2 of our rebuild when we should be finished and competing. However on that note I think that's why we are so excited about the rebuild. we have never actually seen one first hand.

at first glance it also looks like we have cheated by having the hunters and the best scouts money can buy. Our scouting staff probably cost as much as most teams coaching staffs

but sometimes its not about if its about the when that matters.

I apologize. 7 am sobering up rant. started as a reply and just kept going

No I agree.

I can understand a little bit in 05, 06 and 07, trying to get one more run out of Mats, but once he left after 07-08, it should have been automatic.

So yes, everyone has been calling for a rebuild for the last decade-ish, however, no one has been waiting for a rebuild for 40 years, because the Leafs rebuilt pre-cap version twice successfully, despite it not resulting in a Stanley Cup.

 

[paulhiggins]

When Ottawa goes in to the corners they hit and hit hard. When Leafs go into the corners, they just want to get it over with. There are a few exceptions but not enough of them. Get rid of the "no hitters". These guys below all went the whole game without throwing a single hit:

Parenteau
Michalek
Nylander (to the AHL)
Grabner
Corrado
Marincin

Kadri also pitched a "no hitter" last night and was -3. Not sure what to do about him...maybe have a talk with him. If it's because he's unwell, sit him down.

 

[Mad Brills*]

One thing I noticed is that shanny's letter last year was talking about building a cup team, compared to anselmi's letter about playoff team.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Burke may have misjudged but this ownership group… led by the MLSE Board and driven by Tim Leiweke and implemented by Shanahan and Nonis… also misjudged this team from the outset.

They aimed for competing for the playoffs. Failed. Then had no choice but to torch it to the ground.

You talk about misjudgments. That was the last year that a 30th overall finish would have guaranteed one of Eichel or McDavid. And may be the last time in a decade that a player like McDavid becomes available.

The Leafs have never… never ever supported the idea that a quick fix couldn't solve their problems. The mantra has always been "we will compete for the playoffs" and hopes pinned on the latest UFA or trade.

To say fans were on board with losing way back in the 2000's or 1990's… those paying for season tickets on the heels of forking over 50k+ for Personal Seat Licenses… is mis-remembering as far as I am concerned.

I thought Shanahan put it on the players to perform in a fair timeline and manner. He warned them early enough that they needed to be better. Why wouldnt he say that to a team that he inherited that is right against the cap.

I think he voiced his expectations and backed his words when they didn't deliver anything even close to a competitive attitudes.

When Burke landed it was prime time to do a rebuild. Jfj actually wasn't allowed to and i assume Burke wasn't allowed to either.

The best result that could come out of this is ownership realizing that fans will accept it if they mess up 25 years down the road and need to do it again.

I like leaf playets but i am only viewing them in whats best for the team going forward. Trade whoever for whoever if it makes us better. Simple as that.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I really really hope these are the last 14 games of Grabner and PAP. Just soft players that really don't do jack **** out there. PAP may have scored a few points, but other than that I hate his game. He is not that good. Grabner is just a fast skater, that's it. This rebuild can become extra painful if I have to watch PAP and Grabner playing for the Leafs for another season.

 

[ULF_55]

Also, I hate the whole "I've been wanting a rebuild for 40 years!" crap.

Not one Leaf fan was wanting to rebuild during the 1993, or the 2002 cup runs.

The Leafs have done rebuilds, we remember the 80's with the kiddie defense.

Before the cap the Leafs were one of the biggest spenders.

With the implementation of the cap it became obvious their was a requirement to blow it up. With a cap money is much less powerful.

 

[Cor]

I really really hope these are the last 14 games of Grabner and PAP. Just soft players that really don't do jack **** out there. PAP may have scored a few points, but other than that I hate his game. He is not that good. Grabner is just a fast skater, that's it. This rebuild can become extra painful if I have to watch PAP and Grabner playing for the Leafs for another season.

I wonder if teams saw through PAP's production and that's why there wasn't much interest.

Friedman said from asking around the league, only the Islanders had very minimal interest, and he couldn't find any other team.

 

[Warden of the North]

I wonder if teams saw through PAP's production and that's why there wasn't much interest.

Friedman said from asking around the league, only the Islanders had very minimal interest, and he couldn't find any other team.

I find this hard to believe. I think it had more to do with his injury. EVERYONE wants cheap scoring depth in the playoffs. I also suspect that Lou wasnt just going to give him away, which he likely could have if he wanted to.

 

[catgoldfish]

The Leaf goaltender Sparks looks like he belongs in the AHL for good. Bad on the first an second goal even though the second goal the defender was on top of him. Just looks like he's swimming out there. Always on his knees down and out of position. He's not the answer as is Bernier. Goaltending looks bleak again. Our 2 prospects were drafted very low for a reason. They both suck. Hopefully we'll draft one or two this year but they'll be far from ready. Also the UFA goalies besides maybe Cam Ward look very mediocre. More that likely we'll see one if not both of our goalies back again. Another losing season.

 

[TheProspector]

Horrible outcome, but the process was there. Huge possession advantage, and much of it came from Nylander (+11).

Through 7 games, Wilie has already shown himself to be an elite player -- 54.7% Corsi. The stat line will come. And it'll come faster when he has some more talented linemates.

 

[A1LeafNation]

The Leaf goaltender Sparks looks like he belongs in the AHL for good. Bad on the first an second goal even though the second goal the defender was on top of him. Just looks like he's swimming out there. Always on his knees down and out of position. He's not the answer as is Bernier. Goaltending looks bleak again. Our 2 prospects were drafted very low for a reason. They both suck. Hopefully we'll draft one or two this year but they'll be far from ready. Also the UFA goalies besides maybe Cam Ward look very mediocre. More that likely we'll see one if not both of our goalies back again. Another losing season.

Goalies usually look like Sparks their first year. Not all of them impress out of the gate. Most players need seasoning.

 

[Cor]

I find this hard to believe. I think it had more to do with his injury. EVERYONE wants cheap scoring depth in the playoffs. I also suspect that Lou wasnt just going to give him away, which he likely could have if he wanted to.

It sounds like the market just fell Sunday Night.

There was a bunch of discussion and rumors.

IIRC, Leafs were asking the Islanders for their 2nd 17', and the Islanders didn't want to.

Which I assumed it would get done for a 3rd and a minor prospect.

But then they made the Shane Prince deal.


So either there really was no market for PAP, or Lou was playing hardball for a 2nd and lost.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Also, I hate the whole "I've been wanting a rebuild for 40 years!" crap.

Not one Leaf fan was wanting to rebuild during the 1993, or the 2002 cup runs.

maybe not. but every fan after 2002 and the strike wanted it tore down not patched back together.

That's not true either. There were plenty of people saying that we were only a couple of players away even in much more recent years.

There were plenty of Burke and Kessel supporters not that long ago.

Many thought we got the better of the Kessel trade and supported Burke's trade. Lots of people thought Kessel would outscore Seguin even just a couple of years ago.

They've just conveniently changed their tune now for rather obvious reasons -> aka revisionist history. Groupthink is strong here.

 

[burpsalot]

How much of that is not his fault, as he essentially sat for half a year, destroyed his confidence, and wasn't in game shape when other players are gearing up for the playoffs?

He looks good in Vancouver, I don't think he'll be a #3 or more D, but I think he's better than a "serviceable AHLer".

So why did they waive him?

 

[Maplebeasts]

When Ottawa goes in to the corners they hit and hit hard. When Leafs go into the corners, they just want to get it over with. There are a few exceptions but not enough of them. Get rid of the "no hitters". These guys below all went the whole game without throwing a single hit:

Parenteau
Michalek
Nylander (to the AHL)
Grabner
Corrado
Marincin

Kadri also pitched a "no hitter" last night and was -3. Not sure what to do about him...maybe have a talk with him. If it's because he's unwell, sit him down.

Brian is that you?

 

[Antropovsky]

Sparks, he's a worse version of reimer. He battles hard, goes down early and doesn't have a lot of control of his rebounds. Unlike reimer, sparks seems to have a difficult time making the 2nd save that he needs to due to his rebound control. Doesn't seem to have a particular style.

Reimer plays bigger than sparks and seems to have more of a butterfly structure to his game, better positioning. Reimer is stronger on the puck, and more aware or capable of covering the puck when it's in his crease after a first save.

Overall I don't think sparks is the answer in net.

 

[Iamtheliquor*]

This team is very weak physically. It's fine if we want to play the young kids and let them develop, but to see them get tossed around on a nightly basis isn't going to do them any favors. We need protection out there for them.

If management doesn't bring in a lot of toughness in the offseason, I hate to say it, I hope we see a lot of our promising guys get injured. It appears to be the only way management will get this.

 

[darrylsittler27]

On Corrado.

He is the kind of Dman if you can upgrade you do it.I don't think he would be better than Granberg and may have been brought in to help the tank or blackmail Vancouver for another draft pick, perhaps? Problem is I doubt you can even get a 4th rounder for him.GM's weren't going silly this TD. Polak and Reimer while taking back salary for 2 delayed 2nd rounders is about fair. A super late first for Ladd is not gross overpayment to a cup team. Point is, I don't think Corrado is in the future plans of this regime, nor will he ever fetch much.

 

[Pholus]

Sparks, he's a worse version of reimer. He battles hard, goes down early and doesn't have a lot of control of his rebounds. Unlike reimer, sparks seems to have a difficult time making the 2nd save that he needs to due to his rebound control. Doesn't seem to have a particular style.

Reimer plays bigger than sparks and seems to have more of a butterfly structure to his game, better positioning. Reimer is stronger on the puck, and more aware or capable of covering the puck when it's in his crease after a first save.

Overall I don't think sparks is the answer in net.

Sparks is also 5 years younger than Reimer. Your comparison should be Sparks now vs Reimer 5 years ago, not what they both are today. All of Sparks weaknesses are thing that Reimer improved on while he was playing in the NHL.

 

[SEER]

Well there's a little difference between +/- and advanced stats

Even in there, he was rated high in areas he shouldn't hjave been..

But, I was talking about +/- .. You brought up Advanced Stats...

..and even if you have all the stats in the world and don 't watch the games, you miss a LOT..!

 

[Crosscrease14]

I was at the game last night just wanted to leave some live notes:

Kadri was probably the leafs best player. He was working hard away from the puck and at times looked like he was the only one really trying to make something happen.

Nylander had a few nice chances. He has great puck skills but the intensity just wasn't there.

Soshnikov looked really good. He played well away from the puck, made hits and at full speed he flew past everyone. Would've liked to see him get a shot though.. Seemed like the team around him was pretty dead. He'll be a good piece going forward.

Valiev looked really steady. Didn't stand out but didn't look out of place. Good showing for a young defenceman.

Marincin is a tank God. Clearly playing over his head but he looked a little less bad live and he's pretty big. Not a bad skater. I see why some see potential.

Sparks looked below average but didn't have much help.

 

[Bernier the Boats]

Hey everyone. Missed the game but saw that they almost outshot the sens 2 to 1.

I know it was a shutout but how did the team play and any stand outs? (good or bad)

When Ottawa goes in to the corners they hit and hit hard. When Leafs go into the corners, they just want to get it over with. There are a few exceptions but not enough of them. Get rid of the "no hitters". These guys below all went the whole game without throwing a single hit:

Parenteau
Michalek
Nylander (to the AHL)
Grabner
Corrado
Marincin

Kadri also pitched a "no hitter" last night and was -3. Not sure what to do about him...maybe have a talk with him. If it's because he's unwell, sit him down.

I'd rather score goals than hit people.

 

[Iamtheliquor*]

I'd rather score goals than hit people.

how many goal's did we score last night?