Top ten goalies of all time?

[AndyDusso]

1. Patrick Roy

2. Martin Brodeur

3. Jacques Plante

4. Terry Sawchuk

5. Dominik Hasek

6. Glenn Hall

7. Ed Belfour (his stats are very good, don't like the guy but he belongs in the top 10)

8. Ken Dryden

9. Bill Durnan

10. Tony Esposito

Would put Tretiak but too hard to tell because he never had the chance to play in NHL

 

[War Admiral]

1. Patrick Roy

2. Martin Brodeur

3. Jacques Plante

4. Terry Sawchuk

5. Dominik Hasek

6. Glenn Hall

7. Ed Belfour (his stats are very good, don't like the guy but he belongs in the top 10)

8. Ken Dryden

9. Bill Durnan

10. Tony Esposito

Would put Tretiak but too hard to tell because he never had the chance to play in NHL

It amazes me that Billy Smith (the most clutch playoff goaltender ever) is not even getting mentioned. If Ed Belfour is #7...where should "Battlin" Billy Smith be rated?

 

[AndyDusso]

You are right about Smith, he is the most clutch goalie but his record in regular season is o.k. but not as comparable as many other goalies...so I'd rate him between 11-15, hard to only pick 10 of them. A guy like Bernard Parent would also deserve to be consider just as Turk Broda, Brimsek, Hainsworth, Smith, Fuhr, Thompson or Vezina just to name them.

Comparing different era's is not an easy task and that is why I don,t pick Smith because in regular season he never really impressed that much despite playing for a superb team. But in playoff he is probably one of the best ever probably just besides Roy.

Belfour I hate him but he has shown some great consistency over his career putting strong number every year...it is hard to put Belfour too high but I figure that in 20 or 30 years from now, the Eagle will stand pretty high in the rankings of best goalie ever because of his stats.

 

[War Admiral]

You are right about Smith, he is the most clutch goalie but his record in regular season is o.k. but not as comparable as many other goalies...so I'd rate him between 11-15, hard to only pick 10 of them. A guy like Bernard Parent would also deserve to be consider just as Turk Broda, Brimsek, Hainsworth, Smith, Fuhr, Thompson or Vezina just to name them.

Comparing different era's is not an easy task and that is why I don,t pick Smith because in regular season he never really impressed that much despite playing for a superb team. But in playoff he is probably one of the best ever probably just besides Roy.

Belfour I hate him but he has shown some great consistency over his career putting strong number every year...it is hard to put Belfour too high but I figure that in 20 or 30 years from now, the Eagle will stand pretty high in the rankings of best goalie ever because of his stats.

Point well taken. I just can't see "The Eagle" in the top 10.

 

[Wisent]

2002 Olympics 4-0-1 .917 1.80 (Gold Medal)
2004 World Cup 5-0-0 .961 1.00 (World Cup)
2005 Worlds 5-2-0 .908 2.87
2006 Olympics 2-2-0 .915 2.01

Am I missing something? I don't see how that constitutes "bad" play. It might not be the best international career ever, but I just don't see how that is bad.

I saw him play and he gave up a lot of softies especially in the last two tournaments.

 

[meehan]

I saw him play and he gave up a lot of softies especially in the last two tournaments.

I saw him play too, and he made some big saves in the first two tournments I mentioned. Again, IMO "bad" play suggests his goaltending is so poor that it costs his teams games, which isn't the case looking at his record. You could say he is "average" at best internationally, but even that is stretching it.

 

[FoppaArGud]

well

2002 Olympics 4-0-1 .917 1.80 (Gold Medal)
2004 World Cup 5-0-0 .961 1.00 (World Cup)
2005 Worlds 5-2-0 .908 2.87
2006 Olympics 2-2-0 .915 2.01

Am I missing something? I don't see how that constitutes "bad" play. It might not be the best international career ever, but I just don't see how that is bad.

that 04 WC is his best by the numbers but that team was freakin loaded!!! in comps where he has had to carry Canada he hasnt done it. that said, it doesnt matter because he did carry the devils. hell, last year alone he was HUGE in digging them out of a hole and putting them atop the division. he wasnt posting 20-save shutouts, he was posting 40-save shutouts. plus, as i said, he has been the most durable of his era and has numbers on par with the halls, roys, sawchuks etc at a relatively young age.

 

[FoppaArGud]

re:Billy Smith

he definitely belongs over belfour and maybe over fuhr (could make the case for Dryden, I dont know, there is a lot of disagreement generally on where he ranks); i was an inch from putting him on my list and am stunned at how few he has made.

 

[meehan]

that 04 WC is his best by the numbers but that team was freakin loaded!!! in comps where he has had to carry Canada he hasnt done it. that said, it doesnt matter because he did carry the devils. hell, last year alone he was HUGE in digging them out of a hole and putting them atop the division. he wasnt posting 20-save shutouts, he was posting 40-save shutouts. plus, as i said, he has been the most durable of his era and has numbers on par with the halls, roys, sawchuks etc at a relatively young age.

Again, I don't see how "not carrying a team" justifies calling his play "bad". Just because you didn't play great doesn't mean you played bad; there is middle ground.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

You'd think being responcible for breaking the 50 year Olympic drought would protect him from these sorts of critisims.

 

[shelovesshanny]

Sawchuk
Plante
Hasek
Tretiak
Roy
Brodeur
Dryden
Esposito
Fuhr
Parent
Kidd
Soderstrom
Fiset

 

[FoppaArGud]

well

Again, I don't see how "not carrying a team" justifies calling his play "bad". Just because you didn't play great doesn't mean you played bad; there is middle ground.

i never said he played poorly, just that he was not at his best. i've been defending him all over this post, dont make it harder than it already is for a Flyers fan! i need a shower now!

 

[Wisent]

Again, I don't see how "not carrying a team" justifies calling his play "bad". Just because you didn't play great doesn't mean you played bad; there is middle ground.

With all due respect to Brodeur. But in the last two tournaments he played awful. OK. so has the entire team but I expected a little bit more of a guy who constantly gets mentioned as one of the best goalies ever.

 

[brody30*]

With all due respect to Brodeur. But in the last two tournaments he played awful. OK. so has the entire team but I expected a little bit more of a guy who constantly gets mentioned as one of the best goalies ever.

if you think those numbers are awful you should get yourself checked out.

 

[ktulu98]

oh my god, so hasek's 1 season in PO as a back-up ruled him out of the top 10 goalies in history?

 

[meehan]

With all due respect to Brodeur. But in the last two tournaments he played awful. OK. so has the entire team but I expected a little bit more of a guy who constantly gets mentioned as one of the best goalies ever.

So two "awful" tournaments (and again "awful" is stretching it) totally negates a great career which already included backstopping a gold medal and world cup winning team? I think you put two much stock in small stretches of play.

 

[seventieslord]

It is difficult to rate all-time players due to the difference in eras and this is particularly true of goaltenders. My advantage is that I have actually seen all of the goalies play except Durnan and Broda.

Dryden would likely have ranked even higher but for his shortened career. For those who point to the Habs powerhouse teams as a reason for Dryden's record, check out the season he sat out in a contract dispute and did his articles as a lawyer. Without Dryden backstopping them the Habs looked more like the "Habs-nots". You can play firewagon hockey when you have a goalie who can make the crucial stop at the right time.

In so far as games played, particularly playoff games, Roy had a chance to play more than goalies of earlier eras where there were two rounds until expansion in 1967. The more games you play the more wins are possible so winning % and shutouts IMHO are a better gauge. Also you have to consider the quality of the team in front of the goalie.

As I said differing eras make it difficult to pick. IMHO Roy is not even be the best goalie of his era, let alone all-time.

Patrick Roy's stats ("#") = all-time record:

Reg season- GP 1029(1), W 551(1); Win% .618(80; GAA 2.54 (25); SO 66(3)
Playoffs- GP 247(1), W .611 (3) ; Win% .616(3) GAA 2.30(13); SO 23(1)

I think any consideration of top goaltenders would have to include the following. (I have watched all but Turk Broda and Bill Durnan):

Turk Broda - 5 Stanley Cups with the Leafs, often considered the best clutch goaltender of all time.
Reg Season- GP 629, W 250; Win%.571 GAA 2.53; SO 62
Playoff -GP 101, W 60; Win% .594 GAA 1.98; SO 13

Ken Dryden- 6 Cups in 8 years
Reg Season- GP 397, W 258; Win% .798; GAA 2.24; SO 46
Playoff -GP 112, W 80; Win% .714 GAA 2.40; SO 10

Glenn Hall- 502 CONSECUTIVE STARTS - the first real butterfly goalie - not Roy.
Reg Season- GP 906; W 407; Win%.548; GAA 2.51; SO 84
Playoff -GP 115, W 49; Win%.426; GAA 2.79; SO 6

Dominik Hasek- 6 Vezina trophies and 2 Harts, 1 Stanley Cup and Olympic Gold. Enough said.
Recorded 6 shutouts in one post season.
Reg Season- GP 581, W 288; Win%.574; GAA 2.23; SO 61
Playoff -GP 97, W 53; Win%.546; GAA 2.03; SO 6

Jacques Plante- 6 Stanley Cups, 1 Hart, 7 Vezinas
BTW Clint Benedict not Plante was the first goaltender in hockey history to don a facemask in a National Hockey League game, February 20, 1930.

Reg Season- GP 837, W 434; Win%.628; GAA 2.38; SO 82
Playoff -GP 112, W 71; Win%.634; GAA 2.16; SO 14

Terry Sawchuk- 2nd in GP and Wins - 103 SHUTOUTS
Reg Season- GP 971, W 447; Win% . GAA 2.52; SO 103
Playoff -GP 106, W ; Win% . GAA 2.55; SO 12


Also consider where you place the best goalie who never played in the NHL - Vladislav Tretiak.

As I noted IMHO Roy is not even the best goalie of his era. I give "The Dominator" the nod over St. Patty. It may well turn out that Brodeur will surpass Roy - I rank them about even right now.

Here is my list:

1. Terry Sawchuk
2. Jacques Plante
3. Ken Dryden
4. Dominik Hasek
5. Glenn Hall
6. Turk Broda
7. Patrick Roy/Martin Brodeur
9. Bill Durnan
10. Vladislav Tretiak

It's unbelieveable how many people overrate Brodeur. In your case you're making him Roy's equal, which is sacreligious. What has he done that Roy hasn't?

 

[seventieslord]

From what I've read about Clint, he went down to his knees like he was taking Communion, not in an inverted V, which is what the butterfly is. Hall is THE inventor of that style of goaltending, by all accounts. Is he the first to drop down? Of course not, but he WAS the first to stand in the V leg spread and drop down with his feet to the sides. And this was when Patty Roy was about 3 years old (early 60's). Patrick may have had the extra 25 years to perfect it, but in no way did he "invent" the butterfly style.

Roy was never 3 years old in the early 60's, he was born in 1965. And Benedict played from 1917-1930.

 

[seventieslord]

1. Patrick Roy

2. Martin Brodeur

3. Jacques Plante

4. Terry Sawchuk

5. Dominik Hasek

6. Glenn Hall

7. Ed Belfour (his stats are very good, don't like the guy but he belongs in the top 10)

8. Ken Dryden

9. Bill Durnan

10. Tony Esposito

Would put Tretiak but too hard to tell because he never had the chance to play in NHL

No serious top 10 list can include a goalie who has just three major accomplishments - a cup and two vezinas.

 

[Wisent]

So two "awful" tournaments (and again "awful" is stretching it) totally negates a great career which already included backstopping a gold medal and world cup winning team? I think you put two much stock in small stretches of play.

I admit (as I have earlier) that Brodeur`s NHL career has been outstanding. But his international play hasn`t. About backstopping a gold medal: Again, no disrespect to Brodeur, but he was the last reason they won it. That team as a whole was good (although that doesn`t take the group phase into account). Than take a look at what they played against (not really many scoring threats apart from Sweden (CuJo played that game) and Czechia (allowed three goals)). He has good numbers in that tournament but not against good opposition.
So perhaps awful is stretching it. But at least he was bad. I have seen a majority of the games and Brodeur was among the goalies that I would wanted least for my team. He was not secure at all. Granted. All played shaky, but still.
Again, I am not taking anything away from his NHL career which has been great.

 

[meehan]

I admit (as I have earlier) that Brodeur`s NHL career has been outstanding. But his international play hasn`t. About backstopping a gold medal: Again, no disrespect to Brodeur, but he was the last reason they won it. That team as a whole was good (although that doesn`t take the group phase into account). Than take a look at what they played against (not really many scoring threats apart from Sweden (CuJo played that game) and Czechia (allowed three goals)). He has good numbers in that tournament but not against good opposition.
So perhaps awful is stretching it. But at least he was bad. I have seen a majority of the games and Brodeur was among the goalies that I would wanted least for my team. He was not secure at all. Granted. All played shaky, but still.
Again, I am not taking anything away from his NHL career which has been great.

So basically, when Brodeur's teams won in international tournaments he was just along for the ride, and when they lost he was a reason for their downfall. Right, seems like the standard anti Brodeur sentiments that frequent these boards. In response, you can't call team USA bad, they kept it close with Canada all the way up to the moment when Brodeur made a big save on Hull on a US PP in a one goal game with minutes left. And try to create a list of goalies in the 2004 tourny who played better than Brodeur.

 

[meehan]

It's unbelieveable how many people overrate Brodeur. In your case you're making him Roy's equal, which is sacreligious. What has he done that Roy hasn't?

Well he backstopped a gold medal winning team for one, and he reached 400 wins much sooner. I agree though that Brodeur, at this point, hasn't done more than Roy.

 

[Wisent]

So basically, when Brodeur's teams won in international tournaments he was just along for the ride, and when they lost he was a reason for their downfall. Right, seems like the standard anti Brodeur sentiments that frequent these boards. In response, you can't call team USA bad, they kept it close with Canada all the way up to the moment when Brodeur made a big save on Hull on a US PP in a one goal game with minutes left. And try to create a list of goalies in the 2004 tourny who played better than Brodeur.

I am not anti-Brodeur. When his team won, he played against weak opposition (at least in the Olympics) and when his team played bad, he sure didn`t do a thing to give them a chance (one good game that happen to be the finals).
I didn`t include the 2004 cup because I haven`t seen a single game. But I saw the WC and the Olympics. I can create a list of goalies for these tournaments.
And just again, I am not anti-Brodeur. I will gladly admit that he is among the (if not the) top goalies in the NHL right now.

 

[seventieslord]

Well he backstopped a gold medal winning team for one, and he reached 400 wins much sooner. I agree though that Brodeur, at this point, hasn't done more than Roy.

Not even close to as much as Roy, IMO. The Gold medal was obtained in a 5-game tournament with possibly the best team ever assembled. Roy did play in the olympics too, (Nagano) and he was excellent, and it took a shootout for him to lose, he was otherwise perfect. And of course some terrible shooter selection by the Canadian coaches helped, since Roy can't go down there and score the goal himself

As for getting 400 wins sooner, who cares? times change, and Roy played the first 7 years of his career in a league where most, if not all, starting goalies were not expected to play much more than 55 games. Brodeur has played over 70 for how many straight years? I'm sure a couple old-time goalies reached that mark faster than he did, if you were to prorate their wins to an 82-game schedule. But that's just regular season we're talking about, and it's not completely irrelevant, but meaningless in comparison to the playoffs. The only people I see calling Ed Belfour the 2nd best goalie of all-time because he's now 2nd in regular season wins are over at the mapleleafs.com board.

For all of Brodeur's gaudy statistics, he's actually only been top 3 in the NHL in save percentage once - He was 2nd in 1997. Roy has been first 5 times, second 3 times, and third once. That helps to illustrate that Brodeur, while obviously excellent and a deserving top-10 goalie, has been the beneficiary of some outstanding defensive play, evidenced by an excellent GAA, huge shutout totals, but still only above average save percentage.

 

[meehan]

Not even close to as much as Roy, IMO. The Gold medal was obtained in a 5-game tournament with possibly the best team ever assembled. Roy did play in the olympics too, (Nagano) and he was excellent, and it took a shootout for him to lose, he was otherwise perfect. And of course some terrible shooter selection by the Canadian coaches helped, since Roy can't go down there and score the goal himself

No one says Roy played bad, but Brodeur did backstop a medal winning team, and he did follow that up with a stellar world cup performance. Take for it what you will, but Brodeur has had more success in international tournaments.

As for getting 400 wins sooner, who cares? times change, and Roy played the first 7 years of his career in a league where most, if not all, starting goalies were not expected to play much more than 55 games. Brodeur has played over 70 for how many straight years? I'm sure a couple old-time goalies reached that mark faster than he did, if you were to prorate their wins to an 82-game schedule. But that's just regular season we're talking about, and it's not completely irrelevant, but meaningless in comparison to the playoffs. The only people I see calling Ed Belfour the 2nd best goalie of all-time because he's now 2nd in regular season wins are over at the mapleleafs.com board.

For all of Brodeur's gaudy statistics, he's actually only been top 3 in the NHL in save percentage once - He was 2nd in 1997. Roy has been first 5 times, second 3 times, and third once. That helps to illustrate that Brodeur, while obviously excellent and a deserving top-10 goalie, has been the beneficiary of some outstanding defensive play, evidenced by an excellent GAA, huge shutout totals, but still only above average save percentage.

A few things; one, Brodeur playing more games is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. It proves his durability, which is second to no goalie ever save perhaps Glenn Hall. Secondly, on statistics, the years Roy lead the league in save percentage, only once did he play over 60 games. I am sorry, but leading the league in save percentage while playing only 45 games is not impressive when guys like Grant Fuhr played 70+ games that year. Finally, as all Brodeur critics inevitably mention the team that played in front of him, I have to point out that Roy can have no complaints about the quality of players he has had in front of him; do you want me to name all the Hall of Fame players who played with him, especially Hall of Fame defensemen? I mean if you want to get nit-picky about it, for all the talk about Roy being the greatest big game goalie ever, his record in games 7s is hardly stellar. Like I said, Brodeur at this point is not as great as Roy, however I think at the same point in careers, they were about equal.