Top ten goalies of all time?

[Leaf Lander]

1 a) Terry Sawchuk 1 b) Patrick Roy
2 a) Glenn Hall 2 b) Ken Dryden
3)Jacques Plante
4)Hasek
5)Turk Broda
6)Martin Brodeur
7)Bill Durnan
8)Ed Belfour
9 a)George Hainsworth 9b) Tiny Thomspon
10a )Tony Esposito 10b) Fuhr

 

[pnep]

"TOP 10 by HHOF Monitor Points"

Hasek Dominik
Roy Patrick
Hall Glenn
Plante Jacques
Sawchuk Terry
Dryden Ken
Benedict Clint
Brimsek Frank
Durnan Bill
Broda Turk

 

[raleh]

1Sawchuck
2.Plante
3.Hasek
4.Roy
5.Hall
6.Vezina
7.Tretiak
8.Parent
9.Durnan
10.Dryden

 

[Habsfan 32]

1.Roy
2.Sawchuck
3.Hasek
4.Durnam
5.Dryden
6.Plante
7.Brodeur
8.Esposito
9.Brimsek
10.Belfour or Fuhr.

 

[Chili]

One of the best hockey features I've seen was a goaltending round table with some of these guys a few years back on CBC. I thought some of the comments were very enlightening and interesting...

Ron McLean: Ken, you always said that the mark of a great goaltender is that you can't forgive a mistake. I can't remember many, but did you have bad goals, and could you put them behind you?

Ken Dryden: No, I couldn't forget them. I knew I had to; I knew the game was going on; I knew I had to let the team know that I was OK. But it was an act. I was really upset that goal that had gone in--I should have had it. I blew it. The night that I wanted to be a perfect night was gone, I could not get it back, it was gone forever, and I had to get back into the game. And the good thing about playing on a good team is that a good team can help you out at those moments. If you get yourself back into it, and you keep the team close enough, then eventually they'll find an answer for you. But I think that there are lots of styles around this table, that lots of successful goalies can play in very different ways. But I think, fundamentally, in our bones, what we have in common is that we hate letting in goals--that we just can't stand it. We feel the humiliation of it all, and nothing is quite the same after we let in a bad one.

Grant Fuhr: I got lucky in Edmonton. I could make the odd mistake. We knew we were going to get four or five every night, so you had room to make a mistake here or there, so you didn't have to worry about it.

Patrick Roy: I agree with everything I heard here. But I think that the most important thing is to not show your teammates that it affects you, if you get in the dressing room and you start, "Sorry, guys. Sorry this, sorry that," it's the worst thing you can do. You have to show up the next game and be a wall.

Brodeur: You allow goals that sometimes you wish you could have back, but everybody's human. And for me, I'm not a guy that really puts a lot of pressure on myself. I enjoy playing the position, and it's fun winning.... The most important thing for me is knowing that I'm in control, and everybody around me (looks) to me to be the best goalie in the NHL every time I step on the ice. And if I show weakness to them, they aren't going to play the same way in front of me. They know now that if we're down a goal, well, that "Marty's back there."

link

 

[seventieslord]

Hasek is inferior to Ray Emery who is about the 750th best goalie of all time according to Bryan Murray, a veteran and highly respected NHL coach. Thus for that reason I dropped him from my top 10, imagine a top 10 goalie all time backing up somebody like Ray Emery, would never happen. None of the guys on my list were ever backup goalies once they first became starters.

This sounds mighty familiar.

Can't wait to see what this board says about this opinion of yours.

 

[seventieslord]

This sounds mighty familiar.

Can't wait to see what this board says about this opinion of yours.

.......20 minutes later... Just as I thought. This board ripped you to shreads, like you deserved.

-----------------------------------------------

I'm working on a project right now where I analyze all significant NHL goalies based on their accomplishments, with different values for different accomplishments, based on the league's average GAA, the number of teams in the league, the number of games played in the season, the number of teams that make the playoffs, and the number of wins needed to win the cup. Unfortunately, the points I'll be awarding for each type of accomplishment will be totally arbitrary, so they will be easily dismissed by those whose opinions it clashes with. But it is shaping up to be an excellent indicator of which goalies really dominated their eras the best, and hopefully will prove to be a legitimate comparison tool for goalies of different eras.

 

[Wisent]

Sawchuk
Hasek
Hall
Tretiak
Holecek
Roy
Plante

These are the one that stand out for me. The rest is just too hard to judge.

 

[VanIslander]

Holecek...stand out for me...

For me too.

 

[Wisent]

For me too.

He definately was an elite goaltender.

 

[jiggs 10]

1Sawchuck
2.Plante
3.Hasek
4.Roy
5.Hall
6.Vezina
7.Tretiak
8.Parent
9.Durnan
10.Dryden

These are pretty close to the guys I would include, but in the wrong order.

1.) Sawchuk. Simply the best.
2.) Hall. Invented the "butterfly" style, played forever.
3.) Plante. Revolutionized the position.
4.) Tretiak
5.) Durnan. 6 Vezina Trophies in 7 years. 2 Cups. Ambidextrious.
6.) Dryden. Ditto, only more Cups.
7.) Roy
8.) Hasek
9.) Belfour
10.) Lester Patrick. To play goalie at age 50 (or whatever) with no mask is amazing.

Soon to move up: Brodeur

 

[Wetcoaster]

It is difficult to rate all-time players due to the difference in eras and this is particularly true of goaltenders. My advantage is that I have actually seen all of the goalies play except Durnan and Broda.

Dryden would likely have ranked even higher but for his shortened career. For those who point to the Habs powerhouse teams as a reason for Dryden's record, check out the season he sat out in a contract dispute and did his articles as a lawyer. Without Dryden backstopping them the Habs looked more like the "Habs-nots". You can play firewagon hockey when you have a goalie who can make the crucial stop at the right time.

In so far as games played, particularly playoff games, Roy had a chance to play more than goalies of earlier eras where there were two rounds until expansion in 1967. The more games you play the more wins are possible so winning % and shutouts IMHO are a better gauge. Also you have to consider the quality of the team in front of the goalie.

As I said differing eras make it difficult to pick. IMHO Roy is not even be the best goalie of his era, let alone all-time.

Patrick Roy's stats ("#") = all-time record:

Reg season- GP 1029(1), W 551(1); Win% .618(80; GAA 2.54 (25); SO 66(3)
Playoffs- GP 247(1), W .611 (3) ; Win% .616(3) GAA 2.30(13); SO 23(1)

I think any consideration of top goaltenders would have to include the following. (I have watched all but Turk Broda and Bill Durnan):

Turk Broda - 5 Stanley Cups with the Leafs, often considered the best clutch goaltender of all time.
Reg Season- GP 629, W 250; Win%.571 GAA 2.53; SO 62
Playoff -GP 101, W 60; Win% .594 GAA 1.98; SO 13

Ken Dryden- 6 Cups in 8 years
Reg Season- GP 397, W 258; Win% .798; GAA 2.24; SO 46
Playoff -GP 112, W 80; Win% .714 GAA 2.40; SO 10

Glenn Hall- 502 CONSECUTIVE STARTS - the first real butterfly goalie - not Roy.
Reg Season- GP 906; W 407; Win%.548; GAA 2.51; SO 84
Playoff -GP 115, W 49; Win%.426; GAA 2.79; SO 6

Dominik Hasek- 6 Vezina trophies and 2 Harts, 1 Stanley Cup and Olympic Gold. Enough said.
Recorded 6 shutouts in one post season.
Reg Season- GP 581, W 288; Win%.574; GAA 2.23; SO 61
Playoff -GP 97, W 53; Win%.546; GAA 2.03; SO 6

Jacques Plante- 6 Stanley Cups, 1 Hart, 7 Vezinas
BTW Clint Benedict not Plante was the first goaltender in hockey history to don a facemask in a National Hockey League game, February 20, 1930.

Reg Season- GP 837, W 434; Win%.628; GAA 2.38; SO 82
Playoff -GP 112, W 71; Win%.634; GAA 2.16; SO 14

Terry Sawchuk- 2nd in GP and Wins - 103 SHUTOUTS
Reg Season- GP 971, W 447; Win% . GAA 2.52; SO 103
Playoff -GP 106, W ; Win% . GAA 2.55; SO 12


Also consider where you place the best goalie who never played in the NHL - Vladislav Tretiak.

As I noted IMHO Roy is not even the best goalie of his era. I give "The Dominator" the nod over St. Patty. It may well turn out that Brodeur will surpass Roy - I rank them about even right now.

Here is my list:

1. Terry Sawchuk
2. Jacques Plante
3. Ken Dryden
4. Dominik Hasek
5. Glenn Hall
6. Turk Broda
7. Patrick Roy/Martin Brodeur
9. Bill Durnan
10. Vladislav Tretiak

 

[Ogopogo*]

1 Glenn Hall
2 Patrick Roy
3 Terry Sawchuk
4 Ken Dryden
5 Dominik Hasek
6 Jacques Plante
7 Frank Brimsek
8 Martin Brodeur
9 Clint Benedict
10 Bill Durnan

 

[KenLinsemanFanClub]

I can't believe how many of these lists don't have Grant Fuhr included. Fuhr often never received his due because he played for a team capable of scoring on every shift and allowing a breakaway on every other. However he played 20 NHL seasons
from 1981 to 2000. Won 5 Stanley Cups. In 1984 and 1987, Fuhr won two Canada Cups as a member of Team Canada. Fuhr was the ultimate team guy. How many of the guys on all of these lists can boast of similar accomplishments. Yes, he didn't have the glowing individual save percentages or GAA but his career is exemplified by him being a team player above all else. He never complained about a lack of playing time or wanting to play every game. He did what had to be done to win and didn't worry about putting up personal stats. He was a showman but not a show boat.
In 1983-1984 Fuhr also collected 14 points, which still stands as the single-season record for most points by a goaltender.
How all of this doesn't rank him as a top 5 all time goalie, I'll never understand. Ask Wayne Gretzky or Mark Messier about how valuable he was to the Oilers and you might get a better understanding of how great a goalie he was.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I can't believe how many of these lists don't have Grant Fuhr included. Fuhr often never received his due because he played for a team capable of scoring on every shift and allowing a breakaway on every other. However he played 20 NHL seasons
from 1981 to 2000. Won 5 Stanley Cups. In 1984 and 1987, Fuhr won two Canada Cups as a member of Team Canada. Fuhr was the ultimate team guy. How many of the guys on all of these lists can boast of similar accomplishments. Yes, he didn't have the glowing individual save percentages or GAA but his career is exemplified by him being a team player above all else. He never complained about a lack of playing time or wanting to play every game. He did what had to be done to win and didn't worry about putting up personal stats. He was a showman but not a show boat.
In 1983-1984 Fuhr also collected 14 points, which still stands as the single-season record for most points by a goaltender.
How all of this doesn't rank him as a top 5 all time goalie, I'll never understand. Ask Wayne Gretzky or Mark Messier about how valuable he was to the Oilers and you might get a better understanding of how great a goalie he was.

Fuhr was great - he is #21 on my list.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I can't believe how many of these lists don't have Grant Fuhr included. Fuhr often never received his due because he played for a team capable of scoring on every shift and allowing a breakaway on every other. However he played 20 NHL seasons
from 1981 to 2000. Won 5 Stanley Cups. In 1984 and 1987, Fuhr won two Canada Cups as a member of Team Canada. Fuhr was the ultimate team guy. How many of the guys on all of these lists can boast of similar accomplishments. Yes, he didn't have the glowing individual save percentages or GAA but his career is exemplified by him being a team player above all else. He never complained about a lack of playing time or wanting to play every game. He did what had to be done to win and didn't worry about putting up personal stats. He was a showman but not a show boat.
In 1983-1984 Fuhr also collected 14 points, which still stands as the single-season record for most points by a goaltender.
How all of this doesn't rank him as a top 5 all time goalie, I'll never understand. Ask Wayne Gretzky or Mark Messier about how valuable he was to the Oilers and you might get a better understanding of how great a goalie he was.

Fuhr's great, but this game has been played for over 100 years, there have been alot of great goalies. But Fuhr never played like an MVP, and most top 10 goalies have at some point or another, for a noteworthy periopd of time, simply controlled the game. Fuhr just can't claim that. Yes, he was important to the Oiler's dynasty. But more so than Dryden was to the Canadiens? Plante to the Canadiens? Broda to the Leafs? Benedict to the Senators? No, sorry, he simply wasn't.

Hall. Invented the "butterfly" style

Can anyone confirm whether or not Benedict played butterfly? It's known that he was the first successful unorthodox goalie and the the reason for the all goalies must play stand-up rule. And his nickname of Praying Benny is because he'd often drop to his knees to make the save. One would have to assume his style incorporated the butterfly, or at least some proto-butterfly style.

 

[KenLinsemanFanClub]

Fuhr's great, but this game has been played for over 100 years, there have been alot of great goalies. But Fuhr never played like an MVP, and most top 10 goalies have at some point or another, for a noteworthy periopd of time, simply controlled the game. Fuhr just can't claim that. Yes, he was important to the Oiler's dynasty. But more so than Dryden was to the Canadiens? Plante to the Canadiens? Broda to the Leafs? Benedict to the Senators? No, sorry, he simply wasn't.

Dryden was an abysmal failure on the International stage. Witness the '72 summit series. And you were around to see Broda and Benedict play? Never played like an MVP? I have to disagree with you here. Fuhr should have had at least two playoff MVP's and would have if it weren't for two men named Gretzky and Messier.

 

[chooch*]

Dryden was an abysmal failure on the International stage. Witness the '72 summit series. And you were around to see Broda and Benedict play? Never played like an MVP? I have to disagree with you here. Fuhr should have had at least two playoff MVP's and would have if it weren't for two men named Gretzky and Messier.

which goalie wasnt in that series.

I am/was a huge fan of Kenny both as a person and of course as a goalie. I saw him play often beginning in 1971 and he never ever gave up the backbreaker goal. Never ever. Still he was susceptible at times to confidence issues - being psyched out as he was against the Russians and Sabres. Rene Robert had his number. Maybe he was just too smart too much of a thinker. Kind of being picky given his won loss percentage.

Yet here's no way he was superior to Hasek. Hasek was a miracle worker in nets. You couldnt dream of making the saves he made just like you could dream of playing forward like Mario. Hasek is the greatest I ever saw in nets.

 

[KenLinsemanFanClub]

which goalie wasnt in that series.

I am/was a huge fan of Kenny both as a person and of course as a goalie. I saw him play often beginning in 1971 and he never ever gave up the backbreaker goal. Never ever. Still he was susceptible at times to confidence issues - being psyched out as he was against the Russians and Sabres. Rene Robert had his number. Maybe he was just too smart too much of a thinker. Kind of being picky given his won loss percentage.

Yet here's no way he was superior to Hasek. Hasek was a miracle worker in nets. You couldnt dream of making the saves he made just like you could dream of playing forward like Mario. Hasek is the greatest I ever saw in nets.

Vladislav Tretiak and Tony Esposito.

 

[FoppaArGud]

Hmmm, tough one

I really dont know where to rank guys like Hainsworth, Durnan, Benedict, Vezina etc. I'll stick with the guys I've either seen a lot of or at least have a solid frame of reference for evaluating:

1) Roy
2) Sawchuk
3) Hall
4) Plante
5) Parent
6) Hasek
7) Dryden
8) Fuhr
9) Bower
10) Tretiak (he may belong higher but truth be told I am including him mostly on faith; I've seen like three games of his and obviously no NHL career)

Some people may argue that Parent and Hasek dont belong as high as they do. Parent was certainly limited by injuries but at his best he was the best in the world in a pretty good era for goaltenders. Hasek is the guy I'd put in net if I needed to steal a game; he is like the Brett Favre of goalies; plus he had an awesome career in Europe before coming to the NHL.

Fuhr and Dryden both played in front of such loaded teams but they were essential to their success still. Obviously that starts right away when Dryden knocks out Boston in the playoffs as a "rookie" (not even!) and with Fuhr I really dont think Edmonton could have played such an open game if they didnt have a guy in the net they could count on to stop an odd man rush.

It astonishes me that any, let alone a handful of these lists would exclude Glenn Hall. He is in the top five without question.

 

[jiggs 10]

Can anyone confirm whether or not Benedict played butterfly? It's known that he was the first successful unorthodox goalie and the the reason for the all goalies must play stand-up rule. And his nickname of Praying Benny is because he'd often drop to his knees to make the save. One would have to assume his style incorporated the butterfly, or at least some proto-butterfly style.

From what I've read about Clint, he went down to his knees like he was taking Communion, not in an inverted V, which is what the butterfly is. Hall is THE inventor of that style of goaltending, by all accounts. Is he the first to drop down? Of course not, but he WAS the first to stand in the V leg spread and drop down with his feet to the sides. And this was when Patty Roy was about 3 years old (early 60's). Patrick may have had the extra 25 years to perfect it, but in no way did he "invent" the butterfly style.

 

[FoppaArGud]

no plante or brodeur?

Sawchuk
Hasek
Hall
Tretiak
Holecek
Roy

These are the one that stand out for me. The rest is just too hard to judge.

i hate brodeur and plante was, by most accounts, a jerk but they both stand out to me.

 

[Wisent]

i hate brodeur and plante was, by most accounts, a jerk but they both stand out to me.

I didn`t take Brodeur because, as excellent as he was in the NHL, he was bad in international competitions.
I think I just forgot about Plante. I will edit my post.

 

[FoppaArGud]

I dunno

I didn`t take Brodeur because, as excellent as he was in the NHL, he was bad in international competitions.
I think I just forgot about Plante. I will edit my post.

You could make the same case that Dryden was not on top of his game in international play. To me Brodeur has been the top goalie in the league over a pretty lengthy span of time, he might not have been the best every single year (many times though) but over the past decade plus he has been the very best and the most durable. Hasek I would rate higher and I would put Belfour in the top 20 but the thing he has over those guys is that he can be counted on to get in that net 65 times a year. Plus he can REALLY handle the puck. He has a good shot at some pretty serious records and is already in very select company of the elites we agreed on; I think he belongs there in sum, too despite the fact that I despise him. I think he is like Emmitt Smith, great but not flashy and easy to dislike for fans from many cities, still deserves his due.

 

[meehan]

I didn`t take Brodeur because, as excellent as he was in the NHL, he was bad in international competitions.
I think I just forgot about Plante. I will edit my post.

2002 Olympics 4-0-1 .917 1.80 (Gold Medal)
2004 World Cup 5-0-0 .961 1.00 (World Cup)
2005 Worlds 5-2-0 .908 2.87
2006 Olympics 2-2-0 .915 2.01

Am I missing something? I don't see how that constitutes "bad" play. It might not be the best international career ever, but I just don't see how that is bad.