Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 7

[quoipourquoi]

This is where I'm at now:

Three must-adds:

1. Hugh Lehman - easy #1 for reasons stated earlier in this thread. Really highly thought of by basically everyone who watched him play, great longevity, etc.

2. Gilbert Perreault - I think he should have gone last round. Everything said about Bure by people who watched Bure play was said about Perreault by people who watched him play AND Perreault's longevity is actually pretty good. Tremendous star power. This is what I said last time: "good peak, good longevity, tremendous star power, very visually appealing, absolutely fantastic player in Best-on-Best international play. Really good string of All-Star consideration: 1972: 4th (behind Esposito, Ratelle, Clarke), 1973: 3rd (Esposito, Clarke), 1974: injuries, 1975: 3rd (Clarke, Esposito), 1976: 2nd (Clarke), 1977: 2nd (Dionne). He was also 3rd behind Dionne and rookie Gretzky in 1980. Career similar to what I picture Bure having if Bure stayed healthy (and was a center)."

3. Doug Bentley - Another guy who probably should have gone last time. This is what I said about him: "If his playoff record was as good as his brother's he'd be on our list already. Only a handful of star forwards had left for WW2 when he led the league in points in 1943. He followed it up with another strong year in 1944 against really war weakened competition. But it should be noted that Doug Bentley himself missed 1.5 years due to the war (1945 and half of 1946), so effectively missing 2 seasons of being able to finish near the top of the season end rankings. I like his versatility - before he left for the war, he was a LW who led the league in goals in 1943 and 1944. After he came back, he moved to C and led the league in assists in 1948 and 1949. And he was praised for his backchecking."

Next bunch (no particular order):

Scott Niedermayer - 3 really elite seasons, could have been 4 without the 2005 lockout? Excellent playoff resume.

Adam Oates - Not as much star-power as some, but the best straight up point-producer available this round. Made his linemates better - Would Brett Hull be as high on our list without Oates? Would Neely be in the HHOF without Oates?

Pavel Datsyuk - I like his two-way game. Probably the best 2 year stretch of any player available, but it is just two years.

Mike Modano - Didn't peak like Datsyuk, but was he better in his 3rd, 4th, 5th seasons? I give him lots of credit for playing on-par with Yzerman/Fedorov/Sakic/Forsberg when it mattered most.

Guy Lapointe - Best string of regular seasons by any defenseman left. Good in the playoffs too, even if he wasn't dominating plus/minus numbers to the extent of Savard or Robinson. Best special teams defenseman left? He was a big part of both Montreal's #1 PK and #1 PP.

Tommy Phillips - I like him better than Hod Stuart, because he contributed a lot to winning teams.

George Hainsworth - I like him a little better than Thompson, because his playoff record is better.

A little too soon:

Rod Langway - Great peak, but dropped off fairly young. He is well behind Niedermayer and Lapointe in the playoffs. I realize that others feel differently.

Hod Stuart - I have him behind Tommy Phillips because his teams generally did poorly, even in weak leagues. I just wish that arguably "the best player in the world" in a weak talent pool could make more of a difference than that, at a time when players played the full 60 minutes.

Tiny Thompson - I have him behind Hainsworth because of playoffs. Thompson had the one great run, but was otherwise part of a generally underachieving Bruins team. He was only able to capture a 1st Team All-Star against weak competition - 1930, when Hainsworth and Worters were a bit on the decline and Gardiner hadn't emerged yet - and 1936 after Gardiner died when Wilf Cude was the 2nd Teamer

Paul Kariya - At this point, I realize I'm lower on "dead puck era" stars than most. But his regular season prime is fairly average compared to the guys available this round, and that's all he has.

Johnny Bucyk - Very good player for a long time, who looked like a great one on the Bobby Orr/Phil Esposito power play.

Marcel Pronovost - The next O6 defenseman to be added; I just can't put him at the level of Niedermayer or Lapointe, not when his peak looks at least somewhat weaker than their's.

Datsyuk went last week.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Datsyuk went last week.

Whoops. lol, that's what happens when I try to rush to fit this in. Edited.

 

[Batis]

Just finished reading through this thread after a very busy week. Will send my vote soon and hopefully I find more time to contribute to the discussion next week.

 

[ImporterExporter]

This is where I'm at now:

Three must-adds:

1. Hugh Lehman - easy #1 for reasons stated earlier in this thread. Really highly thought of by basically everyone who watched him play, great longevity, etc.

2. Gilbert Perreault - I think he should have gone last round. Everything said about Bure by people who watched Bure play was said about Perreault by people who watched him play AND Perreault's longevity is actually pretty good. Tremendous star power. This is what I said last time: "good peak, good longevity, tremendous star power, very visually appealing, absolutely fantastic player in Best-on-Best international play. Really good string of All-Star consideration: 1972: 4th (behind Esposito, Ratelle, Clarke), 1973: 3rd (Esposito, Clarke), 1974: injuries, 1975: 3rd (Clarke, Esposito), 1976: 2nd (Clarke), 1977: 2nd (Dionne). He was also 3rd behind Dionne and rookie Gretzky in 1980. Career similar to what I picture Bure having if Bure stayed healthy (and was a center)."

3. Doug Bentley - Another guy who probably should have gone last time. This is what I said about him: "If his playoff record was as good as his brother's he'd be on our list already. Only a handful of star forwards had left for WW2 when he led the league in points in 1943. He followed it up with another strong year in 1944 against really war weakened competition. But it should be noted that Doug Bentley himself missed 1.5 years due to the war (1945 and half of 1946), so effectively missing 2 seasons of being able to finish near the top of the season end rankings. I like his versatility - before he left for the war, he was a LW who led the league in goals in 1943 and 1944. After he came back, he moved to C and led the league in assists in 1948 and 1949. And he was praised for his backchecking."

Next bunch (no particular order):

Scott Niedermayer - 3 really elite seasons, could have been 4 without the 2005 lockout? Excellent playoff resume.

Adam Oates - Not as much star-power as some, but the best straight up point-producer available this round. Made his linemates better - Would Brett Hull be as high on our list without Oates? Would Neely be in the HHOF without Oates?

Mike Modano - Didn't peak like Datsyuk (edit: Who was added last week), but was he better in his 3rd, 4th, 5th seasons? I give him lots of credit for playing on-par with Yzerman/Fedorov/Sakic/Forsberg when it mattered most.

Guy Lapointe - Best string of regular seasons by any defenseman left. Good in the playoffs too, even if he wasn't dominating plus/minus numbers to the extent of Savard or Robinson. Best special teams defenseman left? He was a big part of both Montreal's #1 PK and #1 PP.

Tommy Phillips - I like him better than Hod Stuart, because he contributed a lot to winning teams.

George Hainsworth - I like him a little better than Thompson, because his playoff record is better. While his longevity as a good player was excellent, I don't think he had the sustained period of excellence of someone like Lehman - after his peak in the late 1920s, he struggled to get on the NHL All-Star team again.

A little too soon:

Rod Langway - Great peak, but dropped off fairly young. He is well behind Niedermayer and Lapointe in the playoffs. I realize that others feel differently.

Hod Stuart - I have him behind Tommy Phillips because his teams generally did poorly, even in weak leagues. I just wish that arguably "the best player in the world" in a weak talent pool could make more of a difference than that, at a time when players played the full 60 minutes.

Tiny Thompson - I have him behind Hainsworth because of playoffs. Thompson had the one great run, but was otherwise part of a generally underachieving Bruins team. He was only able to capture a 1st Team All-Star against weak competition - 1930, when Hainsworth and Worters were a bit on the decline and Gardiner hadn't emerged yet - and 1936 after Gardiner died when Wilf Cude was the 2nd Teamer

Paul Kariya - At this point, I realize I'm lower on "dead puck era" stars than most. But his regular season prime is fairly average compared to the guys available this round, and that's all he has.

Johnny Bucyk - Very good player for a long time, who looked like a great one on the Bobby Orr/Phil Esposito power play.

Marcel Pronovost - The next O6 defenseman to be added; I just can't put him at the level of Niedermayer or Lapointe, not when his peak looks at least somewhat weaker than their's.

Very close to where I'd be if voting.

Bentley and Lehman are my 2 favorites in this round w/ Perreault in 3rd and Lapointe pretty comfortably in 4th.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Tiny Thompson - I have him behind Hainsworth because of playoffs. Thompson had the one great run, but was otherwise part of a generally underachieving Bruins team. He was only able to capture a 1st Team All-Star against weak competition - 1930, when Hainsworth and Worters were a bit on the decline and Gardiner hadn't emerged yet - and 1936 after Gardiner died when Wilf Cude was the 2nd Teamer

I don’t think it makes much difference to Thompson’s ranking in this group, but FWIW Gardiner was very good in 29-30. He played on a hapless Hawks team that was out-to-sea in a lot of ways, and really made a name for himself as their singular star. That led to a smidge of Hart recognition in 1930, and the Amerks tried to buy him out of Chicago that same calendar year. The recognition that started pouring in from 1931 forward was a lagging indicator of the reputation he had already established by 1930.

After writing that, I just realized Thompson couldn’t have been 1AS in 1930... there were no AS teams until the following season. He did win the GAA award and I think we can reasonably project him as a contender for an AS spot. His actual 1AS awards were in ‘36 and ‘38.

 

[MXD]

Voted.
Tiny Thompson became, I think, my first NR goalie since Tretiak way back in the Top-100. Too close to Gardiner, too close to Worters, too close to Lehman and Hainsworth, and with his former teammates Barry and Siebert (really not for long, I know) not yet in, there was no way I'd even consider him at this point.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don’t think it makes much difference to Thompson’s ranking in this group, but FWIW Gardiner was very good in 29-30. He played on a hapless Hawks team that was out-to-sea in a lot of ways, and really made a name for himself as their singular star. That led to a smidge of Hart recognition in 1930, and the Amerks tried to buy him out of Chicago that same calendar year. The recognition that started pouring in from 1931 forward was a lagging indicator of the reputation he had already established by 1930.

After writing that, I just realized Thompson couldn’t have been 1AS in 1930... there were no AS teams until the following season. He did win the GAA award and I think we can reasonably project him as a contender for an AS spot. His actual 1AS awards were in ‘36 and ‘38.

GM-voted All-Star teams:

1927: 1. George Hainsworth, 2. John Ross Roach, 3. Roy Worters
1928: 1. Roy Worters, 2. George Hainsworth, 3. Alec Connell
1929: 1. Roy Worters, 2. George Hainsworth, 3. Tiny Thompson
1930: 1. Tiny Thompson 2. Roy Worters

1926-27 to 1929-1930 All-star team selected by coaches

(Kind of surprising to me to see Gardiner not place in 1930).

_____

I actually forgot to mention Thompson's 1st Team nod in 1938. That would give him three 1st Team nods. Still, the 2nd Teamer in 1936 and 1938 were Wilf Cude and Dave Kerr respectively.

 

[tarheelhockey]

GM-voted All-Star teams:

1927: 1. George Hainsworth, 2. John Ross Roach, 3. Roy Worters
1928: 1. Roy Worters, 2. George Hainsworth, 3. Alec Connell
1929: 1. Roy Worters, 2. George Hainsworth, 3. Tiny Thompson
1930: 1. Tiny Thompson 2. Roy Worters

1926-27 to 1929-1930 All-star team selected by coaches

(Kind of surprising to me to see Gardiner not place in 1930).

_____

I actually forgot to mention Thompson's 1st Team nod in 1938. That would give him three 1st Team nods. Still, the 2nd Teamer in 1936 and 1938 were Wilf Cude and Dave Kerr respectively.

Thanks for posting. I’d respectfully disagree with Worters over Gardiner that season. Worters was still quite good but I think he “broke” under the Amerks’ futility around midseason. Whereas Gardiner looked great behind an even worse Hawks club, and his performance was much more clearly linked to the wins and ties they managed.

For that matter I’d also probably have Gardiner over Thompson, except that it’s really hard to vote against a goalie who’s good individually behind a thoroughly dominant team (e.g. Dryden or Durnan).