Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 7

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quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
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Procedure
  • You will be presented with ~15 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
  • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
  • The top-5 players will be added to The List

Eligible Voters
  • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 220 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
  • Batis, BenchBrawl, bobholly39, buffalowing88, Dennis Bonvie, DN28, Dr John Carlson, Hockey Outsider, MXD, Professor What, ResilientBeast, seventieslord, tarheelhockey, ted2019, TheDevilMadeMe, Vilica, Weztex

Guidelines
  • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
  • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
  • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
  • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules
  • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
  • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates
  • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
  • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, February 26th at midnight and continue through Sunday, February 28th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, March 1st.


Vote 7 Candidates
  • Adam Oates
  • Doug Bentley
  • George Hainsworth
  • Gilbert Perreault
  • Guy Lapointe
  • Hod Stuart
  • Hugh Lehman
  • Johnny Bucyk
  • Marcel Pronovost
  • Mike Modano
  • Paul Kariya
  • Rod Langway
  • Scott Niedermayer
  • Tiny Thompson
  • Tommy Phillips
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,148
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  • George Hainsworth
  • Hugh Lehman
  • Tiny Thompson

giphy.gif
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,779
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I feel like there should be a SIGNIFICANT difference between Lehman and those other two. Well, there should be a significant difference between Lehman and just about every of the players available in this round. But especially Hainsworth and Thompson.
 
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ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
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I think it's going to be Hughie, Oates, Langway then everyone else in this round for myself. I want to take more of a look at Pronovost in the next 2-3 days.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,129
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VsX summary

Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 7 YEAR 10 YEAR
Adam Oates 100.0 95.9 93.3 86.7 85.4 85.3 83.5 79.1 76.7 75.7 90.0 86.2
John Bucyk 128.9 89.4 82.4 82.1 81.5 80.2 76.1 73.2 73.1 72.3 88.7 83.9
Doug Bentley 101.4 98.1 95.0 87.3 81.1 76.8 66.7 63.6 48.5 48.1 86.6 76.7
Gilbert Perreault 95.0 90.5 89.1 84.6 81.7 80.0 79.3 74.4 73.3 67.9 85.7 81.6
Paul Kariya 94.4 91.5 90.8 90.0 80.2 77.9 69.8 66.7 63.3 61.3 84.9 78.6
Mike Modano 87.5 86.2 85.6 81.7 77.5 76.1 75.7 72.6 67.5 66.4 81.5 77.7
Guy Lapointe 72.4 62.0 58.2 57.1 51.9 48.9 47.4 45.0 38.5 21.8 56.9 50.3
Scott Niedermayer 62.6 62.1 60.5 59.4 53.6 44.0 43.0 40.4 38.3 37.5 55.0 50.2
Marcel Pronovost 45.9 44.3 38.6 30.0 29.5 28.2 26.1 25.6 23.9 23.8 34.6 31.6
Rod Langway 33.3 30.3 27.3 26.5 25.8 25.0 19.3 15.1 12.8 12.2 26.8 22.8
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 
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Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
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Hart trophy summary (5% vote threshold)

Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
Doug Bentley1113
Rod Langway123
Paul Kariya123
Gilbert Perreault112
Mike Modano22
Scott Niedermayer22
Adam Oates11
Tiny Thompson11
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Players who were eligible for the Hart, but never received non-trivial votes - Bucyk, Hainsworth, Lapointe, Pronovost

Players who weren't eligible for the Hart - Lehman (effectively), Phillips, Stuart

Note that two of Bentley's three placements happened during WWII

Norris trophy summary (5% vote threshold)

Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
Rod Langway21216
Scott Niedermayer1214
Guy Lapointe1124
Marcel Pronovost12114
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Stuart, of course, was never eligible.
 
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Professor What

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Sep 16, 2020
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My first thoughts looking at this list are 1) I think I'm finally ready for Langway, and 2) I'm hoping for a lot of discussion about Lehman, as he's the player I feel that I understand the least.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
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My first thoughts looking at this list are 1) I think I'm finally ready for Langway, and 2) I'm hoping for a lot of discussion about Lehman, as he's the player I feel that I understand the least.

Lehman was an absolute stud.
-Eleven time PCHA First Team All-Star (1912, '14, '15, '16, '18, '19, '20, '21, '22, '23, '24)
-Eight time Stanley Cup Finalist, One time winner (1910, '10, '15, '18, '21, '22, '23, '24)

Longevity:
If we take a conservative approach and say his 11 first teams in a split league era are the equivalent of being a top 4 goalie. That puts him between Hall (12 or 13) and Patrick Roy & Martin Brodeur (10). He played 22 years of serious hockey. 16 at a major pro level. Playing until he was 42. He was 26 when he received his first first team all-star and 38 when he got his last.

the 11-time PCHA all-star who was known for his puck-handling skill, making quick passes up ice to help the transition game. "Eagle Eye" was a leader in Ottawa senior amateur hockey and an early pro league before joining and starring in the PCHA for over a decade. He then led the Western league in games played, displaying an ironman-like workload, before joining the NHL as the Blackhawks' first ever goalie, promoted to head coach the following season, presumably on the knowledge and/or character he demonstrated to management, or perhaps simply to honor his long career experience in the game, having won the Stanley Cup once in the eight challenges he backstopped.

Led the Ott-Sr. in wins (8), shutouts (1) and GAA (1,67) with the Pembroke Lumber Kings, 1905-06 ... Led the OPHL in wins (11) and GAA (4,35) with the Berlin Professionals, 1909-10 ... Led the PCHA in wins (9) and GAA (5,07) with the New Westminster Royals, 1911-12 ... Led the PCHA in wins (14), shutouts (1) and GAA (4,08) with the Vancouver Millionaires, 1914-15 ... Led the PCHA in shutouts (1) and GAA (3,05) with the Vancouver Millionaires, 1917-18 ... Led the PCHA in wins (12) and shutouts (3) with the Vancouver Millionaires, 1918-19 ... Led the PCHA in wins (12), shutouts (4) and GAA (2.82) with the Vancouver Millionaires, 1921-22 ... Led the PCHA in games played (30) and minutes played (1846) with the Vancouver Maroons, 1923-24 ... Led the PCHA in wins (16), shutouts (5) and GAA (2,33) with the Vancouver Maroons, 1922-23 ... Led the PCHA in GAA (2,63) with the Vancouver Maroons, 1923-24 ... Led the WHL in games played (30) with the Vancouver Maroons, 1925-26 ... First goalie of the Chicago Black history. During 1927-28 NHL season, became Black Hawks' coach.
 

quoipourquoi

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Jan 26, 2009
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I’m guessing Johnny Bucyk’s high VsX in year one is some kind of quirk that allows the threshold to be so low that four Bruins received 100+ in 1971? Probably a few other wingers that were more self-starters that I’d rather see at this point.

His drop-off in regular season scoring to playoff scoring prior to Orr/Esposito’s arrival was tremendous - just 13 points in 34 playoff games, though he stopped making the playoffs between 1960-1968.

Maybe just twice before Orr/Esposito that playing the same position as Hull and Mahovlich hurt his All-Star prospects, but Camille Henry and Doug Mohns could say the same thing.

Obviously he did about as well for himself as a player can do past the age of 32 (58% of his career points; 87% of his playoff points), but I don’t know that he was necessarily trending for this range before the Bruins became the Bruins. That VsX boost alone is substantial in that one year as a 35-year-old gives him 40-50 points over his normal output to then be divided across 7/10 years.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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People really should stop referencing PCHA All Star nods like they're extremely meaningful, relative to AS nods in a consolidated NHL when you had coaches/GM's/writers (groups) making up the voting blocs.

The PCHA AS nods were largely based on the opinion of 1 person, occasionally you'd see someone other than Mickey Ion put forth a list but this again, this is dangerous when comparing players across era's. I don't think it logical to hold AS votes in a 3/4 team league, largely made by 1 person to be of significant value. Larger scale evaluations like the MacLean's list in the late 20's is a major bullet point for Lehman and should be used more often than these AS votes.

I think Lehman belongs in the discussion now certainly, but having studied the PCHA and pre-consolidation more than most, this is a pet peeve of mine and figured it was worth noting for those who may not be aware. I'm doing a very detailed research project on Hap Holmes and there are clearly divides between American (Seattle), Western (Vancouver mainly) and Eastern Canadian papers (Montreal, Ottawa) as it pertains to evaluating players.
 
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Professor What

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People really should stop referencing PCHA All Star nods like they're extremely meaningful, relative to AS nods in a consolidated NHL when you had coaches/GM's/writers (groups) making up the voting blocs.

The PCHA AS nods were largely based on the opinion of 1 person, occasionally you'd see someone other than Mickey Ion put forth a list but this again, this is dangerous when comparing players across era's. I don't think it logical to hold AS votes in a 3/4 team league, largely made by 1 person to be of significant value. Larger scale evaluations like the MacLean's list in the late 20's is a major bullet point for Lehman and should be used more often than these AS votes.

I think Lehman belongs in the discussion now certainly, but having studied the PCHA and pre-consolidation more than most, this is a pet peeve of mine and figured it was worth noting for those who may not be aware. I'm doing a very detailed research project on Hap Holmes and there are clearly divides between American (Seattle), Western (Vancouver mainly) and Eastern Canadian papers (Montreal, Ottawa) as it pertains to evaluating players.

As you mention the study you've done of the league and era, I'd be interested in your take on Lehman. If I've learned anything in our ATD interactions it's that you tend to be quite thorough.
 

ResilientBeast

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People really should stop referencing PCHA All Star nods like they're extremely meaningful, relative to AS nods in a consolidated NHL when you had coaches/GM's/writers (groups) making up the voting blocs.

The PCHA AS nods were largely based on the opinion of 1 person, occasionally you'd see someone other than Mickey Ion put forth a list but this again, this is dangerous when comparing players across era's. I don't think it logical to hold AS votes in a 3/4 team league, largely made by 1 person to be of significant value. Larger scale evaluations like the MacLean's list in the late 20's is a major bullet point for Lehman and should be used more often than these AS votes.

I think Lehman belongs in the discussion now certainly, but having studied the PCHA and pre-consolidation more than most, this is a pet peeve of mine and figured it was worth noting for those who may not be aware. I'm doing a very detailed research project on Hap Holmes and there are clearly divides between American (Seattle), Western (Vancouver mainly) and Eastern Canadian papers (Montreal, Ottawa) as it pertains to evaluating players.

We can move our disagreement about the relative standing of the two of them here.

Lehman is universally considered better than Holmes during their time together in the PCHA. Between both western and eastern papers (Globe and Mail vs Calgary Herald).
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
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My first thoughts looking at this list are 1) I think I'm finally ready for Langway, and 2) I'm hoping for a lot of discussion about Lehman, as he's the player I feel that I understand the least.

Here's my bio from a few years ago linked in my roster post for this years ATD

ATD 2018 Bio Thread

Long story short, very long career with regular season success, sketchy playoff results but often not his own fault (a hill I will die on)

From the bio

Comparisons to Peers (via Nalyd Psycho)
What we see time and again, over a long period of time, and from the West Coast to Ontario. Hugh Lehman was the benchmark for superior goalkeeping. When others are said to be better than Lehman, it is high praise. (When Charlie Gardiner is, we can safely say that Gardiner's peak value is high, but his career value is lacking.) And when others are said to be less than Lehman, it is no criticism at all.
Regina The Morning Leader - Feb 26 said:
(1919) and last but not least, the goal-minders, who have demonstrated that they can stop the hard shots a la George Vezina and Hugh Lehman.
Source
Regina The Morning Leader - Oct 28 said:
(1914) As a goalkeeper, Lesueur is still in a class by himself. They talk about Moran, Holmes, Vezina and others, but the only net guardian capable of giving Lesuer a run for the honours is Hugh Lehman
Source
The Regina Leader-Post - Apr 8 said:
(1931) Gardiner is even greater than Hughie Lehman, known as "Eagle Eye" was in his prime.
Source
The Toronto World - Nov 18 said:
(1916)Holmes work last season was sensational at times, but he had nothing on Hugh Lehman
Source
Ottawa Citizen - Mar 18 said:
(1922)Hugh Lehman who has been a star for the last twenty years. And it could not be said that youth was served to the detriment of Lehman this time, as the veteran played equally as well as the St. Patrick's wizard.
Source
The Toronto World - Oct 28 said:
(1915) Hugh Lehman, the best goaltender in the game, will be between the flags
Source
Ottawa Citizen - Nov 16 said:
(1909) Ottawas will be sure of a good goalkeeper if they land Hugh Lehman.
Source
The Vancouver Sun - Apr 16 said:
(1922) Coast lacrosse fans, by every indication, have said goodbye to Bun Clark. The veteran goalie, whose name in gutted stick circles is on a par with Hugh Lehman in hockey
Source
 
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quoipourquoi

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So we have two Mighty Ducks captains who were born one year apart, retired the same season, shook hands in a Stanley Cup Final as arguably their teams’ top skaters, and even go surfing together. My first instinct is that Scott Niedermayer is better than Paul Kariya, but I wanted to test that.

Niedermayer was, of course, a 1st ballot HOFer in 2013. I’m not saying he was the top of his class (Chelios), but he was at the very center of that weekend’s program - just to give you an idea of how far the media was running with the pro-Niedermayer narrative back then. Meanwhile, Paul Kariya waited another four years to get inducted.

On the surface, that’s pretty damning since they didn’t even take four HOFers in 2013 when Niedermayer was selected and Kariya was not, but an optimistic reading may be that the advance knowledge of Teemu Selanne’s inevitable induction in 2017 made it a little easier to not vote for Kariya a handful of years. After all, they took Housley in 2015, didn’t take a full set of four in 2016, and then added Kariya in 2017. Another reading may be that the injury-ridden and Cup-less Bure and Lindros had to wait too (5 extra years each), so Kariya would as well.

This ran in contrast to how they were perceived prior to leaving/joining Anaheim before and after the 2003-04 season. Kariya was a mainstay in the THN rankings, finishing 6th in 1996, ranking as one of the league’s five “franchise players” (along with Forsberg, Jagr, Lindros, and Roy) in 1997, 2nd in 1998, 5th in 1999, 3rd in 2000, 8th in 2001, 8th in 2002, before declining to 40th in 2003 and disappearing thereafter.

Niedermayer debuted at 28th in 1998, placed 39th in 1999, 25th in 2000, 46th in 2001, 31st in 2002, 19th in 2003, then rattled off 13th, 7th, and 8th before his first partial retirement in 2007 took him off of the list (where as a 1st Team All-Star and Conn Smythe winner, he would have presumably been quite high up there).

There is a good case that Kariya, given his downward trend, was less likely to retain a spot on the list (which had transitioned to being more predictive rather than reflective starting in 1998) despite still being good. He was still a top-20 scorer in 2005-06 (and his team-leading 76 points in 2006-07 wasn’t far off from 2nd Team All-Star Thomas Vanek’s Briere-influenced 84 points) but the buzz was gone.

If Kariya’s 2005-06 and 2006-07 were transplanted to the beginning of his career - giving him a bigger wind-up to his peak rather than a lengthier cool-down - would we feel substantially different about them? I think THN would, but maybe we would as well.

There’s worse filler seasons than being in a logjam of the 17th-25th highest scorers in the league (159-164 points) alongside Jarome Iginla and Martin St. Louis. After Dany Heatley (208 points), Alex Ovechkin (198 points), and Ilya Kovalchuk (174 points), we’re looking at a two-year window where Paul Kariya (161 points; 9 points in 10 playoff games on a Nashville team that won just 2 of 10 against San Jose) is maybe the next best Left Wing in a 30-team, internationally-diverse league.

So even though he’s another Dead Puck Era player with an abbreviated career, he was probably relevant on the ice for a longer period than we may otherwise expect if we lost track of him after the lockout.

Kariya was also pretty vocal about his frustrations with hockey, and distanced himself from everything in a way that Brendan Shanahan (HOF 2013) and Rob Blake (HOF 2014) did not, which probably put a bit of a pause on people’s willingness to celebrate him.

ESPN - June 29 2011 said:
Mark Lovell, one of the continent's top concussion doctors and a man familiar with NHL players, told Kariya last season that the forward suffered brain damage and wasn't able to play.

"He said to me, 'No one in my profession would clear you to play this season,' " Kariya recalled.

Kariya began working with Dr. Daniel Amen, one of the NFL's leading post-concussion experts. After five months of hyperbaric chambers and other workout regimens, Kariya jumped from the 20th to the 80th percentile in brain function.

Still, Amen echoed Lovell's sentiments: Playing in the NHL again would be foolish.

"There's still brain damage on the scan," Kariya said.

"It's been a little disappointing that in the time I've been in the league, nothing much has been done to stop that," Kariya said. "We shouldn't be having this conversation right now. To me there's never been enough of a deterrent not to do it."

Paul Kariya - 2017 said:
Any of the concussions I’ve received in my career, when I came to and saw what happened... there’s a lot of anger.

So I’m not sure it’s enough to say Kariya > Niedermayer, but I do think that even as late as 2009, if there was more of a deterrent than a 2-minute penalty not to try to brain someone who already had 5 concussions, Kariya probably could have coasted by as a good player on St. Louis or elsewhere for the remainder of his 30s and landed close to 1200 points (Iginla added 205 after he left Calgary, so Kariya is probably good for 211).



I’m glad that the doctors in 2010 stopped him. 10 years earlier, and they would have just let him continue playing, collecting those post-prime points that would have probably put him 30 spots higher on our list, and it would have only taken Kariya gambling his life. Hell, not even 10 years - the doctors let him come back that year (he scored 24 points in 37 games in his return), only finally putting an end to it in the off-season.

That’s what really differentiates the end of his career relative to that of Bure and Forsberg and Lindros - while they all fell apart physically, Kariya was the only one who could still skate and shoot and play at a high level if asked to suit up for another few years; he just wasn’t allowed to do so.

I can’t think of worse timing: Kariya joins the league in an era where players don’t respect the health of each others’ brains, plays through those injuries (sometimes even dramatically so), and then when it’s time to just compile numbers - both points and dollars - they stop him. Not because he can’t do it but because doctors finally realized the danger of the compounded interest on all those times Kariya was asked to “get back out there” after getting his “bell rung”.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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I think Lehman and Thompson are legitimate contenders in this round.

- In addition to being an excellent goalie, Lehman had absurd longevity. It really hits home when you realize he came into pro hockey at the same time as LeSueur and slightly before Vezina, played his career largely as a peer of Benedict and Holmes, and then finished in competition with Worters and Hainsworth. For a goalie born in 1885, that demonstrates a remarkable level of versatility and a high level of play under wildly different circumstances. As far as I can tell, he was still good when he was a 41 year old on an expansion team in 1927... having started his pro career in 1906. Given that he was widely recognized as a top ~2-3 goalie for much of his career, that's a combination of peak and longevity that we're not likely to see much more of in this project.

- Thompson was outstanding almost every season of his career:
Year 1 - A legitimate postseason AS contender if that had existed at the time. Won the Stanley Cup with 3 shutouts in 5 games
Year 2 - Led the league in wins and GAA
Year 3 - 2nd All Star
Year 4 - Led the league in shutouts despite a losing record
Year 5 - Led the league in wins and GAA
Year 6 - Just normal I guess?
Year 7 - 2nd All Star
Year 8 - 1st All Star, led the league in GAA and shutouts
Year 9 - 4th in Hart voting, led the league in shutouts
Year 10 - 1st All Star
Years 11 & 12 - Trade, I assume he was pretty average based on his numbers

Of course the statistical marks often reflect team influence, so he may or may not have looked this good if he had played for a mediocre franchise. That being said, there aren't any real gaps here. He was just always good and usually among the very best in the league. Prototype for the big modern goalie who can afford to focus on precision movements and rebound control because of his physical dimensions (contrast with Gardiner and Worters), and a very good puck handler for that era.

- I have always perceived Hainsworth to be substantially less of an individual star than the other goalies who have been inducted so far. He's good, don't get me wrong, but IMO his statistical profile is largely a product of his team situation. Open to being convinced otherwise, but at least for now I probably don't have him in my top-10 this round.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
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I think Lehman and Thompson are legitimate contenders in this round.

- In addition to being an excellent goalie, Lehman had absurd longevity. It really hits home when you realize he came into pro hockey at the same time as LeSueur and slightly before Vezina, played his career largely as a peer of Benedict and Holmes, and then finished in competition with Worters and Hainsworth. For a goalie born in 1885, that demonstrates a remarkable level of versatility and a high level of play under wildly different circumstances. As far as I can tell, he was still good when he was a 41 year old on an expansion team in 1927... having started his pro career in 1906. Given that he was widely recognized as a top ~2-3 goalie for much of his career, that's a combination of peak and longevity that we're not likely to see much more of in this project.

- Thompson was outstanding almost every season of his career:
Year 1 - A legitimate postseason AS contender if that had existed at the time. Won the Stanley Cup with 3 shutouts in 5 games
Year 2 - Led the league in wins and GAA
Year 3 - 2nd All Star
Year 4 - Led the league in shutouts despite a losing record
Year 5 - Led the league in wins and GAA
Year 6 - Just normal I guess?
Year 7 - 2nd All Star
Year 8 - 1st All Star, led the league in GAA and shutouts
Year 9 - 4th in Hart voting, led the league in shutouts
Year 10 - 1st All Star
Years 11 & 12 - Trade, I assume he was pretty average based on his numbers

Of course the statistical marks often reflect team influence, so he may or may not have looked this good if he had played for a mediocre franchise. That being said, there aren't any real gaps here. He was just always good and usually among the very best in the league. Prototype for the big modern goalie who can afford to focus on precision movements and rebound control because of his physical dimensions (contrast with Gardiner and Worters), and a very good puck handler for that era.

- I have always perceived Hainsworth to be substantially less of an individual star than the other goalies who have been inducted so far. He's good, don't get me wrong, but IMO his statistical profile is largely a product of his team situation. Open to being convinced otherwise, but at least for now I probably don't have him in my top-10 this round.

I see Thompson right behind Lehman. He was on a team that couldn't get over the hump. I mean a 4X Vezina winner is nothing to sneeze at.

From HHOF.Com
Few players have made a bigger impact in their rookie season. After Boston coach Cy Denneny opted to start him in the season opener ahead of incumbent Hal Winkler, Thompson's glorious career was launched. He posted a stingy 1.15 goals against mark and led Boston to 26 wins while appearing in all 44 games. In the playoffs, he helped the Bruins win the first Stanley Cup in franchise history. In the finals against the Rangers, he faced his brother Paul in the only sibling confrontation in the playoffs until the Esposito brothers some 40 years later.
During his sophomore season, Thompson was forced to adjust to a more wide-open style of play as the NHL revised its forward-passing rules. His goals-against average grew to 2.19, but it stood as the league's best - the first of four times Tiny would lead this category.
The 1929-30 version of the Beantowners dominated the regular-season standings, and Thompson's 38-5-1 record was one of the most impressive in league history, but Boston was stunned by the Montreal Canadiens in the finals. With Thompson guarding the cage, Boston finished atop the NHL's American Division six times, but he'd never again led them to a Cup victory.
In 1930-31, the nervous netminder's anxiety got the better of him for a short stretch of the season and Percy Jackson had to be pressed into action. Fortunately Thompson's health improved and in 1932-33 he led the NHL with a career-high 11 shutouts.
On April 3, 1933, Thompson made history as the losing goaltender in the longest playoff game to that date, a match that was dubbed "the Ken Doraty Derby." In the fifth and deciding game of the Bruins' semifinal series with Toronto, both teams were held scoreless throughout regulation time as Tiny and his opposite number, Lorne Chabot, played superbly. The deadlock held through 104 minutes and 46 seconds of overtime before the Leafs' Doraty beat an exhausted Thompson.
During the 1935-36 season, Thompson entered the record book when he fed a pass to defenseman Babe Siebert, who went on to score. Thompson became the first goalie ever to earn an assist in the NHL. In 1938 he and brother Paul, then in Chicago, were both named to the First All-Star Team - only the second such brother act after Lionel and Charlie Conacher
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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As you mention the study you've done of the league and era, I'd be interested in your take on Lehman. If I've learned anything in our ATD interactions it's that you tend to be quite thorough.

I don't want to detract from the players being discussed here but the bio and statistical study should shed a lot more light on Holmes in particular, especially his rep, but there will be a lot of pertinent info on Lehman and how he fared, especially head to head with Holmes.
 

Professor What

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I don't want to detract from the players being discussed here but the bio and statistical study should shed a lot more light on Holmes in particular, especially his rep, but there will be a lot of pertinent info on Lehman and how he fared, especially head to head with Holmes.

I guess I misunderstood. I thought you meant you had some stuff on Lehman as well, and that's what I was asking about.
 
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ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,903
3,557
Edmonton
I guess I misunderstood. I thought you meant you had some stuff on Lehman as well, and that's what I was asking about.

Based on our conversations in the ATD draft thread.

The case for Holmes appears to be largely statistical, which is true he did post better numbers. But Lehman is still universally considered better
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,836
7,868
Oblivion Express
I guess I misunderstood. I thought you meant you had some stuff on Lehman as well, and that's what I was asking about.

There is, as a by product of studying Holmes. I've focused a lot of attention on their many head to head match ups to get a better handle on their numbers and what was being written about them, in various city papers.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,113
7,179
Regina, SK
So, the annual rankings by THN for Kariya, best to worst, are:

2, 3, 5, *5*, 6, 8, 8, 40

*5 from the year he was one of five franchise players

and for Niedermayer:

7, 8, *10* 13, 19, 28, 31, 39, 46

*10 estimated for 2007

Based on those, this is not really remotely close; however, I think we've taken a knife to the perception of Kariya in the past here and it doesn't seem to pass muster that he'd be considered a top-8 player in the NHL for 7 years.

Niedermayer's rankings I don't really have a problem with - I think they are for the most part accurate. Kariya's rankings deserve some downward adjustment, but is it enough to justify Niedermayer ahead?
 

Nick Hansen

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
3,120
2,651
Agree with the above. I don't know about you guys but I mainly remember Kariya as a playmaker, perhaps that is due to playing with Selanne a lot who was a goalscorer first and foremost and Kariya changing his game as he suffered injuries and concussions but gotta remember, these are Kariya five best goalscoring seasons:

50, 44, 42, 39, 33

The sixth and seventh best are 32 and 31. That's a legit really good goalscorer IMO on top of his playmaking, especially when you consider the era most of that was done in. He was an impressive all around offensive talent.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Agree with the above. I don't know about you guys but I mainly remember Kariya as a playmaker, perhaps that is due to playing with Selanne a lot who was a goalscorer first and foremost and Kariya changing his game as he suffered injuries and concussions but gotta remember, these are Kariya five best goalscoring seasons:

50, 44, 42, 39, 33

The sixth and seventh best are 32 and 31. That's a legit really good goalscorer IMO on top of his playmaking, especially when you consider the era most of that was done in. He was an impressive all around offensive talent.

I was thinking his goal-to-assist ratio might have been skewed when he was on his own (like Selanne’s was in 1997-98), but it was actually pretty level when checking the numbers we ran a few years back.

1995-96 through 2000-01 - Without Selanne
Kariya: 87 GP, 50-55-105
Kariya (per 82): 47-52-99

1995-96 through 2000-01 - With Selanne
Kariya: 308 GP, 175-212-387
Kariya (per 82): 47-56-103
 
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