Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 7

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ResilientBeast

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Looking at Lehman's time in New Westminster before he joins the Millionaires might be illuminating.

New Westminster on paper looks like it has less high end talent.

I calculated the pythagorean win% of each team in these years GF^2/(GF^2 + GF^2) since the inputs are goals in (a stat a goalie has little impact on, and GAA a stat a goalie has a lot of impact on) I feel like we can use this somewhat as a proxy for the teams abilities as a whole.

(all stats from wikipedia)

Notable Teammates (by scoring table)
1911-12 - Harry Hyland, Ran McDonald, Ken Mallen

Pacific Coast Hockey AssociationGPWLTGFGAPythagorean Win %Actual Win %Diff
1912New Westminster Royals15960787750.65%60.00%9.35%
1912Vancouver Millionaires157801029454.07%46.67%-7.41%
1912Victoria Senators16790819044.75%43.75%-1.00%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Despite having the lowest GF in the league, the Royals greatly overshot their expected win%

1912-13 - Ran McDonald, Charles Tobin, Eddie Oatman

*I removed from the totals the one game where Lehman didn't play and New Westminster surrendered 10 goals since this about Lehman
1913Victoria Senators151050685659.59%66.67%7.08%
1913Vancouver Millionaires16790848947.11%43.75%-3.36%
1913New Westminster Royals14690676452.29%42.86%-9.43%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
The Royals have the lowest GF again (it's close) but also didn't surrender the most GA (by a significant margin). They were expected to finish ahead of the Millionaires.

1913-14 - Eddie Oatman, Ken Mallen, Ran McDonald

1914Victoria Aristocrats151050806758.77%66.67%7.89%
1914New Westminster Royals16790758146.16%43.75%-2.41%
1914Vancouver Millionaires15690768345.61%40.00%-5.61%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
The Royals finish pretty close to their expectation with an offensive surge this season, though their goaltending and defence is a little bit leaky.

Now we also need to consider that between 1912 and 1914 the PCHA was injected with a significant amount of talent from out east. But the Royals were clearly not a talented offensive team. He then joins a talented offensive team the next season and wins the cup with 1915 Millionaires.
 
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ResilientBeast

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My impression of Fowler is that if the leagues had been consolidated, he would have been something like the 5th-7th best goalie in the consolidated league. He was good enough to keep getting jobs, which is a good sign for a goalie, but I don’t know of him ever being a star anywhere. Being better than him just means being a star goalie, but doesn’t really set the bar for our purposes.

I have always perceived Lindsay as being a replacement level guy. That may be colored by his getting torched in the first NHL game, which was the only thing I knew about him for a while. But I’m not aware of his ever being highly regarded at the top level. He was just there.

Parr? Murray? I got nothing.

It really comes down to how you rate Holmes based on his performances in various situations, and then which of Holmes and Lehman you like better based on their head-to-heads.

Which is also weird, Renfrew goes on a spending spree in 09-10 and gets Lalonde, Taylor and both Patricks but it almost looks like they skimp out on a goaltender.

I think he might be underrated a bit historically, perhaps because with Ion's ASTs we only see Lehman with a few glimpses of Holmes behind him
 
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DN28

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I'm gonna have to push back against notion that Lehman faced weaker competition. @Sanf , I believe, is a prominent hfboards researcher into earlier eras' goalies and his conclusion, if I understand him correctly, was more the opposite. WW1 affected NHA more then the PCHA and other Western leagues, and old veterans many years past their peak found themselves still playing in NHA despite reportedly poor results. Also the West wasn't just Lehman + Holmes. Bert Lindsay had a couple of great seasons on par with the elite of the West and East. There were others, for example Hec Fowler was a quality goalie with a few spike seasons close to the elite (I think Fowler had some all-star notions here and there too...).

That being said, here's that post about decreasing goaltending quality of the NHA (East) that I'm talking about:

I made the cut line to 1914 because prior to that I agree NHA had great goaltending. LeSueur still had gas. Moran was playing great. Yes Vezina did great from the start. Holmes wasn´t instant star, but pro quality nevertheless. Benedict was young phenom.

But from 1914 onwards NHA/NHL struggled. (This feels bad because there are some of my favourite goalies but in truth they just were done. Would love to make post of their better parts of career.) Ofcourse there was the season when Holmes played there when they had really strong trio. And the arrival of Forbes (roughly on the Fowlers level IMO) and Roach eventually made it stronger. Sure many of this goalies got praise from games here and there, but this is more of overall view.

Last few seasons from Paddy Moran were not great ones. And at the end he wasn´t that keen to play anymore. There just wasn´t anyone to replace him.

The Ottawa Journal 2. Mar 1915
Quebec will have the redoubtable Paddy Moran in the nets. Paddy has has some off nights this season, and the Ottawa players are hoping that he has one tomorrow...

The Ottawa Citizen 5. Feb 1916
...Moran´s feet have also been bothering him and it looks as though the veteran ought to hang up his stick and give away to a younster. Several of the Quebec players blame Moran for their recent reverses but were loath to complain because of the popularity of "Paddy" and the great work his done in the past...
...Hundreds of Quebec people paid their good money to see Moran perform in his acrobatic style. Good goalkeepers are scarce just now.


The Ottawa Citizen 11. Nov 1916

Quebec considered Paddy Moran close to the brink last season and were breaking in a successor toward the finish of the schedule. Mike has his lines cast for a local boy.

Vancouver Daily World 23. Nov 1916
...Quebec´s old standby, is not anxious to play this season, though he will turn out if necessary.

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 12, 1917
Loyal to Moran
Most of the Quebec players want Sammy Hebert in the nets, but club sentiments is strong for the veteran Paddy Moran. During Wednesday´s game Russell Crawford skated over to the penalty bench and shouted; "Put Hebert in there" Mike Quinn declined to make the change.


The Ottawa Citizen 27. Nov 1917
Good bye Paddy Moran! It will be noticed that the celebrated old goalkeeper of the Quebec club was not drawn by any of the clubs in the new National League. Mike Quinn announced that Moran was through and Paddy´s name was thus rubbed off the list. Moran played goal for Quebec for about fifteen years and was one of the greatest that ever strapped in the pads....

Still teams were after his services because the small pool of goalies that the NHA had wasn´t that great.

The Ottawa Citizen 3. Dec 1917

Goalkeeper George Leblanc will get another tryout with the Wanderers. They hoped to get Paddy Moran, but he refused to leave old "Kebec" Art Ross insists that all his players shall reside in Montreal.

Calgary Herald 20. Dec 1917
As a result of the poor showing of Goalers Hebert and Brooks at Montreal. Manager Querrie will either sign "Paddy" Moran of Quebec or Collette for goaler of the ex-champion Riversides.

Percy LeSueur wasn´t the same either. He was at the end average pro goalie. But like Moran when they needed goalie LeSueur was still one of the guys they considered.

The Vancouver Sun Jan 28. 1916

Wanderers will miss Percy LeSueur if he drops out of the N.H.A. He was one of the best men Wanderers had while he was playing for Torontos.

The Ottawa Citizen Jan 30. 1917
After Saturday´s match in Montreal, Goalkeeper Billy Nicholson drew his release from Torontos. Eddie Livingstone immediately started out on the trail for Percy LeSueur or Sammy Hebert.

Charlie McCarthy was a goalie and professional boxer. Had somewhat decent season, but asked raise or wanted to PCHA. Lichtenstein said that PCHA can have him.

The Montreal Gazette - Mar 10, 1915
Benedict has more experience in senior hockey than Charles Mccharthy and under the nervous strain may be more useful to his team. McCarthy has played consisteny hockey this season and had to be replaced only one occasion...

Billy Nicholson
is story of his own. He was a very good goalie from I guess 1902 to 1909, but was really badly past his prime when he played in NHA. Had rather unsuccesful stints with Tecumseh, Wanderers and Blueshirts. His career ended when he was replaced by Forward for more than period in the middle of game.

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 3, 1913
Then look over the Tecumsehs, Nicholson himself was branded a "has been" by the Haileybury club which signed Paddy Moran at a fabulous salary three years ago.

The Toronto World - Jan 15, 1914

Billy Nicholson, who failed to make himself famous for the Tecumsehs, made his appearance in the Wanderers net but a lively session in the first period proclaimed that his eyes needed testing badly and he gave way to Boyes, who was only fair.

The Montreal Daily Mail - Feb 2, 1914

"Billy" Nicholson the veteran goalkeeper secured at the start of the season from Toronto, was released yesterday by the Wanderers

Ottawa Citizen - Dec 8, 1914
Wanderers will have a pretty nifty defence if they got a good goaler. Boyes and others whom they tried last year were jokes.

The Morning Leader - Jan 4, 1917
The reason Billy Nicholson played in the nets for the Toronto team of the N.H.A in the first two games was that Claude Wilson the regular goalminder, mysteriously disappeared and it wasn´t until last friday that anything was heard of him.

The Ottawa Citizen 29. Jan 1917

Billy Nicholson showed up so poorly after Wanderers had scored their third goal he was replaced by Keats, who was brought from the forward line for this purpose.

Star-Phoenix 31. Jan 1917

Manager Livingston of the Torontos has released goalkeeper Billy Nicholson who gave another bad performance Saturday against the Wanderers

Bert Lindsay I already talked about. Yes he was on decline, but especially his first season was really good. But gradually declined. He was even brought back to 1918-1919 NHL season after Holmes left. Again there wasn´t much options.

Sammy Hebert was one of the only young goalies in the league. And seemed to be NHA teams answer to everything and nothing. Forever promising. Had decent longetivity, but I only can see him as below average pro goalie.

The Ottawa Citizen 11. Nov 1916

Percy LeSueur will be with the .... instead of the Torontos and this means means that it will be necesseray for the Blue Shirts to get a new net custodian. They have Claude Wilson on their reserve list, but are also said to be negotiating for Sammy Hebert, of the Ottawas. Hebert is a better man than Wilson and one of the most reliable, in fact, in the National Hockey association.

Calgary Herald 20. Dec 1917
As a result of the poor showing of Goalers Hebert and Brooks at Montreal Manager Querrie will either sign "Paddy" Moran of Quebec or Collette for goaler of the ex-champion Riversides.

The Ottawa Citizen 25. Nov 1918

Goalkeeper Sammy Hebert was on his way back to Canada, and he would be here in time to take part in the opening game of the National league, on December 18. Hebert is the property of the Ottawas.

Billy Hague was there. Stanley Cup winner from 1905. Was average to above average mercenary goalie, but way back then. Was with Wanderers (played his only games there) and later Ottawas and even as late as in 1920 Hamilton Tigers were after him. Again shows the small pool of talent.

The Toronto World - Dec 7, 1918

The Ottawas will carry a spare goaler, but have not decided Whether to secure Hebert or Hague

Ottawa Citizen - Dec 21, 1920
Manager Percy Thompson of the Hamilton Tigers, wired to Ottawa yesterday in quest of a goalkeeper and is understood to be negotiating with Billy Hague, formerly of the Senators...

Art Brooks was almost 30 when he arrived to NHA and NHL. I know very little about him. Played in OHA and shortly as pro in Pittsburgh in 1908. Bit odd signing.

Brooks, the new goal tender of the D.A.C., is quite a novelty in that he does nearly all his work in stopping shots with his hands. He is a baseball catcher in the summer time and picks off the shots with an accuracy that is thrilling.

"Mike" Mitchell I mentioned before. Had talent and his first season in PCHA was fine. Got back to after war and sometimes mocked "to be still shellshocked". You can´t really blame him for not being as good as he (maybe) could have been.

Spokane Daily Chronicle - Nov 19, 1917
Ivan Mitchell, one of the best goal tenders who ever graced the Pacific Coast Hockey Association, died last week in a London hospital, as a resuit of wounds received while fighting in France.

Frank Brophy. Came from Montreal senior league. Had rather rough season with Quebec. For the last few games was replaced by Defenceman Harry Mummery.

Howard Lockhart rather unknown goalie for pretty strong 228th battalion team in NHA. Did fairly well considering all. Still average at best. Missed few seasons due to war. Had few years in NHL. Once described a goalie that started well, but quicky wore out his welcome. Clearly weaker than Forbes, but I guess still below average pro.

Long post with lot of trivial stuff, but IMO eastern competition from 1914 to 1922 wasnt´t stronger than PCHA´s. War affected and there wasn´t lot of talent available. Yet again IMO PCHA did even better job on getting good amateur goalies to sign. NHA rather dragged past their prime veterans.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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Dead, but not lacking for good content - thanks, @ResilientBeast

So for the newcomers, we’ve touched on Bucyk, Hainsworth, Lehman, and Thompson. Any strong opinions on Modano and Pronovost at this point?

Pronovost should be ready to go in. Not Modano, yet.

Pronovost has a solid resume. Five Cups, strong peak (two first team, two second team all-stars in four seasons), longevity (20 seasons), excellent penalty killing, defensive defenseman.
 

Professor What

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I can't see Modano here. Oates hasn't gone yet, and it feels like there should be a little bit of breathing room between them. Pronovost doesn't really feel out of place here, but I've got him behind Langway and Lapointe, and I'm not entirely sure which side of #5 they're going to fall on (for that matter, it's possible one will be five and one will be six, and I keep waffling on which it will be), because Lehman and Thompson feel like strong top five cases to me. If that's where I end up, Pronovost won't quite make my top five.

I also haven't said anything bout Bucyk, so I might as well do that now. I had him in this range originally, but now that we're here, I'm not feeling it. He has excellent longevity, but it feels like that might have a lot to do with a combination of Esposito/Orr and expansion. Take the one particularly high scoring finish he had in 1970-71. He got 86 out of his 116 points against the recent expansion teams. That's 74%. I'd expect anyone to do better against the new guys than the O6, but isn't that still kind of overkill feeling? I have my doubts that he gets close to that if not having the pressure taken off elsewhere by Esposito and Orr and if he's not playing with them on the powerplay. In fact, I feel that similar arguments could be made about his top 10 finishes in the next two seasons. Bucyk was a heck of a hockey player, but I think I'm starting to see the level he attained more as being the product of something else, so I think he's going to slide a bit from where I had him originally.
 

tarheelhockey

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The argument for Pronovost:

Even though he didn't pick up hardware until his late 20s, he was recognized as a major talent and a very good player even prior to arriving in the NHL. There are some parallels to Langway and Niedermayer in terms of breaking into full stardom a little later than some of the guys we've already inducted -- maybe a sign of where we are in terms of career-quality tiers.

Detroit in the early/mid 1950s had two elite puck-rushing defensemen, Pronovost and Red Kelly. Kelly was the obvious pick for the first pairing, while Pronovost was the anchor for the second pairing. In Pronovost's rookie season, Kelly's first-pair partner was Leo Reise; through this longtime partner was shot-blocking specialist Bob Goldham (who received a l0w-key 2AS in that role in 1955). That put Pronovost on the second pairing. When Goldham retired early, the Wings tried moving a young Al Arbour into the Goldham role for one season before finally giving up on balanced pairings and going all-in with Kelly and Pronovost together.

This creates a pretty clear pattern in their postseason award voting. I'm using All-Star ballots up until 1954, which was the first year of the Norris.

KellyReiseGoldhamArbourPronovost
195118-0-00-16-2
195218-0-0
195318-0-0
195476-865-130-1
195540-557-90-3
195617-270-3
195720-220-20-15
19580-33-4
195934-24
196019-20
196133-19
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Superficially, looking at Pronovost's voting record, you'd think he was a very marginal player until a sudden breakout in 1959. But I don't believe that's the case at all. He was actually a very good player, a significant contributor to good teams whose caliber of play warranted votes (of course still behind the Kelly/Harvey/Gadsby trio).
The Detroit Free Press hinted at this during training camp on 9/15/1957:

Kelly is the veteran and the glamour boy of the crew... Red ranks as one of hockey's top stars... Kelly and Arbour teamed smoothly from the start and some insiders rated Arbour as the best of the two in several games. ...

Pronovost has long been considered the most underrated defenseman in hockey. Playing in the Kelly shadow probably has cost him All Star acclaim. At 27, he is starting his eighth season with the Wings.

Even in recognizing that Pronovost is an All Star caliber claim, this writer devoted 4 paragraphs to the exciting new rookie who's thriving next to Red Kelly... and only one to second-liner Pronovost. That's where we have to look past the superficial recognition, because we know how this kind of dynamic can impact postseason awards.

Recognizing the inherent flaws in taking the All Star Game too seriously, we can at least get a glimmer of information from the fact that Pronovost was selected as one of six rostered defensemen in 1957 and 1958. That at least suggests that he was in reality quite a bit better than guys like Doug Mohns and Ron Stewart who received better Norris ballots in those seasons. Also, in 1954 and 1955 when Pronovost was receiving marginal AS recognition, he could very well have received one of those 6 roster spots... except he was on the other side of the game, playing for the champion Red Wings.

What this all means, is that we have a guy who has 5 superficially relevant seasons, being compared to Langway (5) and Niedermayer (4). Superficially it's a very even race. But I would argue that there's good reason to believe Pronovost actually had more like 7-9 seasons at this level, with award recognition suppressed by a very justifiable coaching choice to split him from Kelly.

In terms of peak, I would argue that there's absolutely no way that either Langway or Niedermayer wins a Norris over Harvey, Kelly, or maybe even Gasdby (who himself did not win one against Harvey and Kelly). I can't see either of Langway or Niedermayer being ranked higher than the 4th best defenseman of this time period, which is basically what Pronovost was.

TL;DR -- Pronovost had a similar peak to Langway and Niedermayer. His prime looks similar on paper but was likely a good deal longer. His longevity is similar to Niedermayer's and clear-cut much better than Langway's. That makes Pronovost the best available defenseman.
 

DN28

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My impression of Fowler is that if the leagues had been consolidated, he would have been something like the 5th-7th best goalie in the consolidated league. He was good enough to keep getting jobs, which is a good sign for a goalie, but I don’t know of him ever being a star anywhere. Being better than him just means being a star goalie, but doesn’t really set the bar for our purposes.

I have always perceived Lindsay as being a replacement level guy. That may be colored by his getting torched in the first NHL game, which was the only thing I knew about him for a while. But I’m not aware of his ever being highly regarded at the top level. He was just there.

Parr? Murray? I got nothing.

It really comes down to how you rate Holmes based on his performances in various situations, and then which of Holmes and Lehman you like better based on their head-to-heads.

Bert Lindsay was anything but a replacement level guy. Lindsay was one of the top 1910s goalies. See:

@ImporterExporter I´m goin to continue the answer to here because I feel that this is more correct place. And I don´t want to clog the other thread with half OT and my pet subjects. So here is something, about Bert Lindsay. I make a post about Fowler later.

There is not much I know about Lindsay before his time in Renfrew. He had quick visit in Latchford Pros in Timiskaming pro league.

But he had clearly made himself reputation when he was chosen for Edmonton Pros Stanley Cup challenge. At this point he became Lester Patrick´s go to guy. It is important to notice that Edmonton had two goalies with team. Other being Billy Nicholson. Some in here may have higher opinion about "Nick" than me, but he definitely wasn´t scrub at the time. The choice for Edmonton was still Lindsay.

The Winnipeg Tribune 18. Dec 1908
Lindsay in goal was wanted this season by every team in the east, which alone ought to show his worth.

The Montreal Gazette 25. Dec 1908
Then there is Billy Nicholson of last years´s Shamrock´s who migh take Lindsay´s place if the latter did not make good in the first game. The four players mentioned give the challengers a likely quartette of substitutes.

Some more obscure offer from his services.

The Ottawa Citizen November 16. 1909
A Chicago club has made a handsome offer to Bert Lindsay goalkeeper of the Renfrew hockey team. They want Lindsay to manage one of the windy city clubs. Lindsay is considering the tempting offer, but is almost sure to remain with Renfrew.

Few quick pieces from his time in Renfrew...

The Brookly Daily Eagle 19. Mar 1910
Local followers of the game who admired Lesueur and Riley Hern, the goalkeepers of the Ottawa and Wanderer teams for the marvelous work they did before the cage in their two nights match early in the week will see another fine player when Bert Lindsay goes into the Renfrew goal...

The Ottawa Citizen 16. Jan 1911
Allthough Vezina played a good game handling all that came his way in stellar style, yet Bert Lindsay the Renfrew goaler, on the night showing was the better of the two...

He was awarded to Tecumseh after Renfrew folded. In Dispersal draft which was made by method names from the hat :). He wasn´t satisfied with the offer that he got from Toronto and went again with Lester Patrick. Most likely his best years being 1913 and 1914.

The Province 8. Mar 1913
Bert Lindsay the goaltender, who was figured by Eastern critics to be about all in, is just the same age as Lester Patrick, and like his captain and manager, he is enjoying his best season as a professional. Bert has played sensational hockey in the nets this year, and his work loops up just as prominently as Hugh Lehman´s did last season, when Royals won the Coast honors....

I would say his prime was 1908-1914 (with a rather poor 1912). Lindsay wanted closer to home and similarly Victoria´s wanted new blood. Even though it was start of decline of Lindsay he still played few very good to fine seasons in NHA and showed that past prime PCHA goalie could do fine in east. Clearly being better than the fellow oldtimer mercenary goalie Hague. And the best goalie that Wanderers had since Riley Hern.

Now it´s notable that after 1915-1916 season famous Montreal Herald writer Elmer Ferguson selected his all-star teams from NHA and Bert Lindsay was his first team choice. Vezina his second team choice. Source: Vancouver Sun 15. Mar 1916.

The Ottawa Citizen 6. Apr 1914

Word now comes from West that Bert Lindsay, who played goal for the Victorias during tha past winter, may be found with Wanderers. Lindsay, according to report from Victoria, says that he will not go back West. He has business interst in and around, Renfrew and does not wish to be so far from his headquarters. Lindsay did great work for the Victorias in the Pacific Coast race this winter and while he was unfortunate in the first two games of the Stanley Cup series he demonstrated in the third that he is still one best net guardians in the district. If the Wanderers get Lindsay they will be much stronger than they have been for several seasons as the lack of a good goaler has really been the means of keeping the Redbands in the second division.

But the return to east happened year after that.

The Ottawa Citizen 11. Dec 1915

Bert Lindsay of Renfrew was out with the Wanderers yesterday, after which he signed a contract. Sammy Lichtenhein realies the beauty of having a spare goaler and will carry both Lindsay and Hague.

The Ottawa Journal 10. Nov 1916
It is not likely that Bert Lindsay, who played goal for the Wanderers a year ago, will be with the Redbands this season. Lindsay now in Ottawa, and according to rumours it is almost an assured fact that he will not come to Montreal to play. Lindsay was one of the mainstays of the club last winter was responsible on more than one occasion for their scoring a victory. He was worked in every important game and showed himself to be one of the best goal-tenders in the National Hockey Association in years. He will likely be replaced this season by Hague, who was substitute goalkeeper year ago.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
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The argument for Pronovost:

Even though he didn't pick up hardware until his late 20s, he was recognized as a major talent and a very good player even prior to arriving in the NHL. There are some parallels to Langway and Niedermayer in terms of breaking into full stardom a little later than some of the guys we've already inducted -- maybe a sign of where we are in terms of career-quality tiers.

Detroit in the early/mid 1950s had two elite puck-rushing defensemen, Pronovost and Red Kelly. Kelly was the obvious pick for the first pairing, while Pronovost was the anchor for the second pairing. In Pronovost's rookie season, Kelly's first-pair partner was Leo Reise; through this longtime partner was shot-blocking specialist Bob Goldham (who received a l0w-key 2AS in that role in 1955). That put Pronovost on the second pairing. When Goldham retired early, the Wings tried moving a young Al Arbour into the Goldham role for one season before finally giving up on balanced pairings and going all-in with Kelly and Pronovost together.

This creates a pretty clear pattern in their postseason award voting. I'm using All-Star ballots up until 1954, which was the first year of the Norris.

KellyReiseGoldhamArbourPronovost
195118-0-00-16-2
195218-0-0
195318-0-0
195476-865-130-1
195540-557-90-3
195617-270-3
195720-220-20-15
19580-33-4
195934-24
196019-20
196133-19
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Superficially, looking at Pronovost's voting record, you'd think he was a very marginal player until a sudden breakout in 1959. But I don't believe that's the case at all. He was actually a very good player, a significant contributor to good teams whose caliber of play warranted votes (of course still behind the Kelly/Harvey/Gadsby trio).
The Detroit Free Press hinted at this during training camp on 9/15/1957:



Even in recognizing that Pronovost is an All Star caliber claim, this writer devoted 4 paragraphs to the exciting new rookie who's thriving next to Red Kelly... and only one to second-liner Pronovost. That's where we have to look past the superficial recognition, because we know how this kind of dynamic can impact postseason awards.

Recognizing the inherent flaws in taking the All Star Game too seriously, we can at least get a glimmer of information from the fact that Pronovost was selected as one of six rostered defensemen in 1957 and 1958. That at least suggests that he was in reality quite a bit better than guys like Doug Mohns and Ron Stewart who received better Norris ballots in those seasons. Also, in 1954 and 1955 when Pronovost was receiving marginal AS recognition, he could very well have received one of those 6 roster spots... except he was on the other side of the game, playing for the champion Red Wings.

What this all means, is that we have a guy who has 5 superficially relevant seasons, being compared to Langway (5) and Niedermayer (4). Superficially it's a very even race. But I would argue that there's good reason to believe Pronovost actually had more like 7-9 seasons at this level, with award recognition suppressed by a very justifiable coaching choice to split him from Kelly.

In terms of peak, I would argue that there's absolutely no way that either Langway or Niedermayer wins a Norris over Harvey, Kelly, or maybe even Gasdby (who himself did not win one against Harvey and Kelly). I can't see either of Langway or Niedermayer being ranked higher than the 4th best defenseman of this time period, which is basically what Pronovost was.

TL;DR -- Pronovost had a similar peak to Langway and Niedermayer. His prime looks similar on paper but was likely a good deal longer. His longevity is similar to Niedermayer's and clear-cut much better than Langway's. That makes Pronovost the best available defenseman.

Good post.

But I'd put both Langway and Niedermayer (and Lapointe) ahead of Pronovost at their peaks.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
The argument for Pronovost:

Even though he didn't pick up hardware until his late 20s, he was recognized as a major talent and a very good player even prior to arriving in the NHL. There are some parallels to Langway and Niedermayer in terms of breaking into full stardom a little later than some of the guys we've already inducted -- maybe a sign of where we are in terms of career-quality tiers.

Detroit in the early/mid 1950s had two elite puck-rushing defensemen, Pronovost and Red Kelly. Kelly was the obvious pick for the first pairing, while Pronovost was the anchor for the second pairing. In Pronovost's rookie season, Kelly's first-pair partner was Leo Reise; through this longtime partner was shot-blocking specialist Bob Goldham (who received a l0w-key 2AS in that role in 1955). That put Pronovost on the second pairing. When Goldham retired early, the Wings tried moving a young Al Arbour into the Goldham role for one season before finally giving up on balanced pairings and going all-in with Kelly and Pronovost together.

This creates a pretty clear pattern in their postseason award voting. I'm using All-Star ballots up until 1954, which was the first year of the Norris.

KellyReiseGoldhamArbourPronovost
195118-0-00-16-2
195218-0-0
195318-0-0
195476-865-130-1
195540-557-90-3
195617-270-3
195720-220-20-15
19580-33-4
195934-24
196019-20
196133-19
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Superficially, looking at Pronovost's voting record, you'd think he was a very marginal player until a sudden breakout in 1959. But I don't believe that's the case at all. He was actually a very good player, a significant contributor to good teams whose caliber of play warranted votes (of course still behind the Kelly/Harvey/Gadsby trio).
The Detroit Free Press hinted at this during training camp on 9/15/1957:



Even in recognizing that Pronovost is an All Star caliber claim, this writer devoted 4 paragraphs to the exciting new rookie who's thriving next to Red Kelly... and only one to second-liner Pronovost. That's where we have to look past the superficial recognition, because we know how this kind of dynamic can impact postseason awards.

Recognizing the inherent flaws in taking the All Star Game too seriously, we can at least get a glimmer of information from the fact that Pronovost was selected as one of six rostered defensemen in 1957 and 1958. That at least suggests that he was in reality quite a bit better than guys like Doug Mohns and Ron Stewart who received better Norris ballots in those seasons. Also, in 1954 and 1955 when Pronovost was receiving marginal AS recognition, he could very well have received one of those 6 roster spots... except he was on the other side of the game, playing for the champion Red Wings.

What this all means, is that we have a guy who has 5 superficially relevant seasons, being compared to Langway (5) and Niedermayer (4). Superficially it's a very even race. But I would argue that there's good reason to believe Pronovost actually had more like 7-9 seasons at this level, with award recognition suppressed by a very justifiable coaching choice to split him from Kelly.

In terms of peak, I would argue that there's absolutely no way that either Langway or Niedermayer wins a Norris over Harvey, Kelly, or maybe even Gasdby (who himself did not win one against Harvey and Kelly). I can't see either of Langway or Niedermayer being ranked higher than the 4th best defenseman of this time period, which is basically what Pronovost was.

TL;DR -- Pronovost had a similar peak to Langway and Niedermayer. His prime looks similar on paper but was likely a good deal longer. His longevity is similar to Niedermayer's and clear-cut much better than Langway's. That makes Pronovost the best available defenseman.

To me, there’s a parallel to what we addressed regarding Niedermayer in a previous round - another 2nd pairing defenseman who wouldn’t look out of place at all as a #1. Niedermayer being World Cup caliber as early as 1996 and making a few North American All-Star rosters before his 2004-2007 run might not be too dissimilar to Pronovost getting acknowledgment on All-Star rosters that predated his actual 1st/2nd Team selections.

I’d like to see a bigger splash in Hart voting, but he’s under Goldie Howe.
 
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ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
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Marcel Pronovost

NHL.COM:
Toughness:
"Marcel's courage could match anyone's in the League," said Jack Adams, himself a Hall of Famer. It was Adams, as Detroit's general manager, who signed Pronovost to a contract with the Red Wings.

"Marsh's problem was the fact that he was overshadowed by our more flashy players like Gordie Howe, Ted Lindsay and Red Kelly."

Here's one episode that provides insight into Pronovost's devil-may-care style. The Red Wings were playing the Chicago Blackhawks when he sped through the neutral zone, heading for the net. The only problem: Two Chicago defensemen were waiting for him at the blue line. "I decided there was only one move," he said. "Bust through the middle."
Pronovost wasn't thinking about getting hurt. He never did. He eyed the two-foot gap between defensemen, pushed the puck ahead and leaped into the opening.
Too late. The defensemen sent Pronovost headfirst over their shoulders. In that split second, he looked down, saw the puck below him and swiped at it. He missed and had to settle for a three-point landing on his left eyebrow, nose, and cheek.

A few minutes later he was lying on a dressing room table with ice bags on his nose and forehead. His skull looked like it had come in second-best in a bout with a bulldozer. His nose was broken, and his eyebrow required 25 stitches. "And my cheekbones," Pronovost recalled, "felt as if they were pulverized." Which they were -- cracked like little pieces of china.
"What hurt most," he said, "was that I had to miss the next two games. As for the injuries, I didn't think twice about them."
That was nothing unusual for Pronovost. "To me," he once said, "accidents were as common as lacing on skates."
His stitches and fractures ran into triple figures, and his sprains were so numerous he eventually lost count of them. If a doctor ever made a bone-by-bone examination he'd swear on a stack of gauze pads that Pronovost was the most injured man in sports.

Talk about courage: During the Detroit-Chicago Stanley Cup Final in 1961, Pronovost played four games on a badly cracked ankle. He would arrive at the arena on crutches, play the game, then put his foot back in the cast. "Marsh played on guts alone, nothing else," one teammate said.

What did bother Pronovost was missing a game. So imagine how he felt in March 1954, when a collision sidelined him for nine games, among the most he ever missed. It happened in a game against Chicago. Marcel was racing down right wing when his skate hit a rut in the ice.
"Lee Fogolin, the big Chicago defenseman, was standing there, waiting to belt me," he said. "But I fooled him. Unintentionally, of course."

Derailed by the rut, Pronovost plunged headfirst into Fogolin's shoulder, breaking the fourth dorsal vertebra in his back.
"At first I had spasms and couldn't move my arms," he said. "I went to the dressing room, felt better, came back and finished the game. Day after, I went bowling. When I got home I couldn't move. The doc said it was my back, so I had to sit out nine games." He didn't miss that many games in a season again until 1965-66.

Maple leafs legends.blogspot

Marcel Pronovost loved to play hockey. Want proof? He played an incredible 20 NHL seasons and over 1200 games despite being known as hockey's most injured man. He suffered nearly every injury in the medical dictionary - fractured vertebras, cracked cheekbones, broken noses and broken limbs - and yet somehow managed to perform at a level very few others have reached.

His kamikaze style of play was the only way he knew how to play, and all the bruises, stitches, breaks and separations in the world didn't stop him.

"Making a dangerous play on the ice didn't make me any more nervous than crossing the street might make someone else. He doesn't worry about getting hit by a car and I don't worry about getting hurt on the ice. If I did, I'd probably go crazy."

Marcel never went crazy, but there was probably a lot of people who thought he was when he repeatedly attempted his reckless abandon. He was a strong skater and puck carrier, often compared to Kenny Reardon before him or, for more modern audiences, a Ed Jovanovski after him. Often he would make a spectacular rush from one end to another. Sometimes these rushes would end up in an equally spectacular crash - into the boards, into another player, or into the goalie. But they were fun to witness.
Defensively Marcel was never considered to be a hard rock defenseman, though he sure tried to be. He would attempt to hit anything in sight with reckless abandon. He was one of the best stick and poke checkers the game has ever seen

Vintage Detroit.com
Pronovost was one of the greatest defensive players in hockey history and an important cog in the Red Wings’ 1950’s Stanley Cup years. For some reason he seems to be overlooked.

In the ’61 playoffs against Chicago, Pronovost removed a cast before each game and played with a cracked ankle.
“I took Novocain shots but after 20 minutes the pain would come back and they would inject me again. I remember Sid Abel (coach) nearly passed out” he says with a chuckle.

Hockey News:
The man Ted Lindsay once called, “the most underrated defenseman every to play in the league,
 

Professor What

Registered User
Sep 16, 2020
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To me, there’s a parallel to what we addressed regarding Niedermayer in a previous round - another 2nd pairing defenseman who wouldn’t look out of place at all as a #1. Niedermayer being World Cup caliber as early as 1996 and making a few North American All-Star rosters before his 2004-2007 run might not be too dissimilar to Pronovost getting acknowledgment on All-Star rosters that predated his actual 1st/2nd Team selections.

I’d like to see a bigger splash in Hart voting, but he’s under Goldie Howe.

I'd make two points about the Hart voting. First, it was harder to get Hart votes at the time because there simply weren't as many of them. Second, the fact that he was a defenseman didn't do Pronovost any favors there either. He was stuck in that wilderness between Babe Pratt in 1944 and Bobby Orr in 1970 when no defenseman won it. Even using the 5% threshold that gets discussed so often, you get Bobby Orr, Red Kelly Doug Harvey, and no one else. If you want any votes at all, you can add Bill Quackenbush, Bill Gadsby, Harry Howell, Tim Horton, and Doug Mohns, but Mohns got a grand total of one and Horton just two. So, yeah, he's under Gordie Howe, but perhaps more relevantly, as we all know, he was also under Red Kelly. They weren't both likely to get votes, and Kelly sucked all of the oxygen out of that room.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Looking at Lehman's time in New Westminster before he joins the Millionaires might be illuminating.

New Westminster on paper looks like it has less high end talent.

I calculated the pythagorean win% of each team in these years GF^2/(GF^2 + GF^2) since the inputs are goals in (a stat a goalie has little impact on, and GAA a stat a goalie has a lot of impact on) I feel like we can use this somewhat as a proxy for the teams abilities as a whole.

(all stats from wikipedia)

Notable Teammates (by scoring table)
1911-12 - Harry Hyland, Ran McDonald, Ken Mallen

Pacific Coast Hockey AssociationGPWLTGFGAPythagorean Win %Actual Win %Diff
1912New Westminster Royals15960787750.65%60.00%9.35%
1912Vancouver Millionaires157801029454.07%46.67%-7.41%
1912Victoria Senators16790819044.75%43.75%-1.00%
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Despite having the lowest GF in the league, the Royals greatly overshot their expected win%

1912-13 - Ran McDonald, Charles Tobin, Eddie Oatman

*I removed from the totals the one game where Lehman didn't play and New Westminster surrendered 10 goals since this about Lehman
1913Victoria Senators151050685659.59%66.67%7.08%
1913Vancouver Millionaires16790848947.11%43.75%-3.36%
1913New Westminster Royals14690676452.29%42.86%-9.43%
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The Royals have the lowest GF again (it's close) but also didn't surrender the most GA (by a significant margin). They were expected to finish ahead of the Millionaires.

1913-14 - Eddie Oatman, Ken Mallen, Ran McDonald

1914Victoria Aristocrats151050806758.77%66.67%7.89%
1914New Westminster Royals16790758146.16%43.75%-2.41%
1914Vancouver Millionaires15690768345.61%40.00%-5.61%
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The Royals finish pretty close to their expectation with an offensive surge this season, though their goaltending and defence is a little bit leaky.

Now we also need to consider that between 1912 and 1914 the PCHA was injected with a significant amount of talent from out east. But the Royals were clearly not a talented offensive team. He then joins a talented offensive team the next season and wins the cup with 1915 Millionaires.

Just curious, what is the reason you're using pythagorean expected win percentage here?

Is it as a more accurate measure of team strength over a small number of games due to the larger sample that goals for and against represent compared to wins, losses and ties? If so, what are you trying to tell us with the results?

Is the point the win percentage results versus expectations? if so, what are you trying to tell us? I completely understand that a team can outperform or underperform their expected win percentage, but if they do, what does it say about Lehman?

Sorry, I'm just trying to understand what this was all for.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Just curious, what is the reason you're using pythagorean expected win percentage here?

Is it as a more accurate measure of team strength over a small number of games due to the larger sample that goals for and against represent compared to wins, losses and ties? If so, what are you trying to tell us with the results?

Is the point the win percentage results versus expectations? if so, what are you trying to tell us? I completely understand that a team can outperform or underperform their expected win percentage, but if they do, what does it say about Lehman?

Sorry, I'm just trying to understand what this was all for.

I kind of lost the plot once I started writing it up. I was starting from a perspective on Lehman's performance on weaker teams talent wise.
  • His first season, New Westminster wins the PCHA despite being offensively anemic
  • His second season the teams GF/GA ratio is roughly the same but they are the worst in the PCHA remaining offensively anemic
  • His third season the team is pretty even with the other teams in GF but the GA blows up
I made the leap that the team performing well in GA coupled with winning a disproportionate amount of games relative to their pythagorean win expectation can be at least partially assigned to Lehman's overall performance.

The goalie has a disproportionate effect on a teams GAA relative to skaters, so if the team has low GF and low GA I feel that the goalie a tremendous part of the teams overall win%.

Edit: He pretty clearly had the worst skaters on his team in the PCHA at this time. Hyland and Oatman are great....but they're not Lester, Taylor, Lalonde, Dunderdale etc
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
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I have Modano several rounds from here in my original list. I think people see Modano & American and get excited.

Not ruling out the American thing, but 5x top-4 at Center isn’t a small amount, right? We’ve been looking at Defensemen with 4 or 5 top-4 selections for the past few rounds, and many of them are from smaller leagues and less competitive eras for accolades than Modano. 20-point player in all three of his Finals runs.

I think being American gave him opportunities that weren’t available to someone like Adam Oates, but I don’t think he squandered those opportunities, being a point-per-game player as early as a 1991 Canada Cup and as late as a 2004 World Cup.
 
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Sanf

Registered User
Sep 8, 2012
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This is the sticky part about judging Lehman. There were only 3-4 teams in the PCHA, so being the best goalie meant being the best of 3-4 guys who were willing to go west for a contract. Not exactly a formula for finding the best goalie in the land.

Well very early in PCHAs history they were rumoured to aim LeSueur, Benedict and Moran, but otherwise PCHA did target and developed "western" goalies. McCulloch was Allan Cup winner with Regina Victorias and Tom Murray with Winnipeg Monarchs. Mike Mitchell was Winnipeg goalie who was developed in Boundary League. There was Alberta goalies like Chuck Clark and Charlie Reid who then did not even make it PCHA (in future did play even in Stanley Cup Final). Compared to the guys that NHA tried this is actually pretty good group.

From everything I have read McCulloch and Mitchell had promising start to their pro career and did pretty well in PCHA, but both went to war and their career was pretty much done. (Ivan Mitchell made it to NHL after war, but it wasn´t huge success).

And my post about Lindsay is already quoted. I understand your view on him because in NHL he was quite rubbish, but at that point he really shouldn´t have been there anymore. But for example in his first NHA season with Wanderers he was still Elmer Ferguson´s selection for All-Star team.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
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Well very early in PCHAs history they were rumoured to aim LeSueur, Benedict and Moran, but otherwise PCHA did target and developed "western" goalies. McCulloch was Allan Cup winner with Regina Victorias and Tom Murray with Winnipeg Monarchs. Mike Mitchell was Winnipeg goalie who was developed in Boundary League. There was Alberta goalies like Chuck Clark and Charlie Reid who then did not even make it PCHA (in future did play even in Stanley Cup Final). Compared to the guys that NHA tried this is actually pretty good group.

From everything I have read McCulloch and Mitchell had promising start to their pro career and did pretty well in PCHA, but both went to war and their career was pretty much done. (Ivan Mitchell made it to NHL after war, but it wasn´t huge success).

And my post about Lindsay is already quoted. I understand your view on him because in NHL he was quite rubbish, but at that point he really shouldn´t have been there anymore. But for example in his first NHA season with Wanderers he was still Elmer Ferguson´s selection for All-Star team.

That was a really good set of research on the competition, thanks for the work.

I've never done a super deep dive on PCHA goaltending so that perspective was helpful for my own personal understanding.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,845
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I would take Modano in front of Oates if I built a team, with his skating, all-round offense and versatility. As for international opportunities, didn't Oates say something along the line of him not being impressed by international hockey and that the most important thing is the NHL?

Well, if you want to evaluate upper echelon players against each other international best-on-best competition is a pretty neat scene for that exercise.

I also noticed Oates never played for a Canadian club team (until his last irrelevant twilight year in Edmonton), so that's another layer of non-pressure, on top of being an undrafted. Would his laissez faire party boy antics have worked under a hot Canadian microscope in his home town of Toronto, or say in Montreal, Vancouver or Quebec?
 

tarheelhockey

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Bert Lindsay was anything but a replacement level guy. Lindsay was one of the top 1910s goalies. See:

There were only 8 total teams between the NHA and PCHA. If we rank Lindsay behind Vezina, Benedict, LeSueur, Lehman, and Holmes, then he's no better than the 6th guy out of 8. I don't think he's better than Hec Fowler (but I would listen to an argument otherwise) which would make him no better than 7th out of 8.

He would be in a conversation with Paddy Moran, Sammy Hebert, Billy Nicholson for which guys belong on the wrong side of the cutoff line in a theoretical consolidated league. Which is replacement level, by definition.

Unless we're seriously arguing that Lindsay or Fowler was on Lehman's level, I don't think it's at all unfair to say Lehman defaulted to being the best PCHA goalie until 1916, and after that it was a two-horse race between himself and Holmes.
 
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tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
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To me, there’s a parallel to what we addressed regarding Niedermayer in a previous round - another 2nd pairing defenseman who wouldn’t look out of place at all as a #1. Niedermayer being World Cup caliber as early as 1996 and making a few North American All-Star rosters before his 2004-2007 run might not be too dissimilar to Pronovost getting acknowledgment on All-Star rosters that predated his actual 1st/2nd Team selections.

I’d like to see a bigger splash in Hart voting, but he’s under Goldie Howe.

Yeah, the Pronovost/Niedermayer parallels are pretty striking. Puck-rushing D who were by no means soft, similar career lengths, played 2nd fiddle for a quasi-dynasty, eventually joined a veteran-heavy team for a Cup run, similar 5-year breakout into the awards spotlight (against softer-than-usual competition). Even their career timing is pretty closely comparable -- starting in the 50s and ending post-expansion isn't so different than starting in the 90s and ending post-lockout.

I could be convinced that Niedermayer's peak is slightly higher than Pronovost's, especially with his 2007 being such a high bar to meet. Niedermayer a little higher, Provost a little longer. I'd take Pronovost, but they're really close, whereas IMO Langway is a clear 3rd.

Well very early in PCHAs history they were rumoured to aim LeSueur, Benedict and Moran, but otherwise PCHA did target and developed "western" goalies. McCulloch was Allan Cup winner with Regina Victorias and Tom Murray with Winnipeg Monarchs. Mike Mitchell was Winnipeg goalie who was developed in Boundary League. There was Alberta goalies like Chuck Clark and Charlie Reid who then did not even make it PCHA (in future did play even in Stanley Cup Final). Compared to the guys that NHA tried this is actually pretty good group.

From everything I have read McCulloch and Mitchell had promising start to their pro career and did pretty well in PCHA, but both went to war and their career was pretty much done. (Ivan Mitchell made it to NHL after war, but it wasn´t huge success).

And my post about Lindsay is already quoted. I understand your view on him because in NHL he was quite rubbish, but at that point he really shouldn´t have been there anymore. But for example in his first NHA season with Wanderers he was still Elmer Ferguson´s selection for All-Star team.

Yeah, the NHL years are just an unfortunate footnote for Lindsay, wrong place at the wrong time to have people remember his name for negative reasons while almost all the others mentioned are forgotten.

I hadn't thought to factor in WWI in the discussion above, but great point about the disruptive factor there. Both for goalies and for the leagues as a whole. We always have to take 1914-1919 into context when we talk about competition levels, especially considering how small the leagues were and how dramatically they could be effected by even just one or two goalies leaving.
 
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quoipourquoi

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Yeah, the Pronovost/Niedermayer parallels are pretty striking. Puck-rushing D who were by no means soft, similar career lengths, played 2nd fiddle for a quasi-dynasty, eventually joined a veteran-heavy team for a Cup run, similar 5-year breakout into the awards spotlight (against softer-than-usual competition). Even their career timing is pretty closely comparable -- starting in the 50s and ending post-expansion isn't so different than starting in the 90s and ending post-lockout.

I could be convinced that Niedermayer's peak is slightly higher than Pronovost's, especially with his 2007 being such a high bar to meet. Niedermayer a little higher, Provost a little longer. I'd take Pronovost, but they're really close, whereas IMO Langway is a clear 3rd.

They both caught breaks in All-Star voting relative to Norris placement too. Pronovost in 1958 and 1960 had 5th and 3rd place Norris votes translate to 2nd and 1st Team selections, while Niedermayer’s 5th place finish in 1998 ended up as a 2nd Team selection.

Langway, despite having some 5ths, never caught a break like that, otherwise he might have matched their All-Star selections. Probably not a serious difference maker though, given the other reasons to maybe prefer a Pronovost or a Niedermayer.
 
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