Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 15

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Rob Blake and Lionel Conacher have similar awards records

It seems there's a sense this round that Lionel Conacher is a step up from Rob Blake, and I just don't see this gap between them.

Lionel Conacher All-Star record: 1, 4, 4, 4, 6* 8, 8

25-26: ? (3rd in Hart voting among D, but when half the world's talent was out west. Asterisked as a 6th place finish)
28-29: 4th
32-33: 4th
33-34: 1st(tied with King Clancy)
34-35: 8th
35-36: 8th
36-37: 4th

Rob Blake Norris record: 1, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8

97-98: 1st
99-00: 3rd
00-01: 4th
01-02: 3rd
02-03: 5th
03-04: 8th

Notes:

• Both men faced really good competition early in their primes, less good competition later on.
• If anything, Blake's record impresses me more than Conacher's. Conacher does well in Hart voting, but it's really tough to compare Hart voting from that era, when defensemen received much more support than they have gotten since WW2.
• Conacher should get "bonus points" for his "Retroactive Conn Smythe" in 1934 (the year Charlie Gardiner died winning the Cup), but I'm not sure if it's enough to put him a tier up from Rob Blake, who had a pretty good playoff record himself.
• Stylistically, both men were big, strong men with hard shots. Conacher was a really slow skater, a weakness Blake didn't have, but I get the sense that Conacher was probably smarter. (Hockey smarts wasn't exactly Blake's strong point).

___________________

JC Tremblay Norris record: 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8

65-66: 4th
66-67: 5th
67-68: 2nd
68-69: 8th
70-71: 3rd
71-72: 5th

Notes:

• Tremblay's Norris record is a little weaker than those two, however:
• Tremblay left for the WHA at the age of 33. His 1st 4 years in the WHA:
  • 1st Team WHA All-Star, Dennis A Murphy Trophy for best defenseman in the WHA
  • 2nd Team WHA All-Star
  • 1st Team WHA All-Star, Dennis A Murphy Trophy for best defenseman in the WHA
  • 1st Team WHA All Star
• Tremblay was incredible in the playoffs for the late 1960s Habs dynasty, outscoring every other defenseman in the NHL by massive margins, and nearly doubling any other player in +/-

Posts from last round on Tremblay in the playoffs:
Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 14
Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 14
Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 14
Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 14

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No Europeans at all this time. (Edit: not meant as criticism.)

I can say about Blake that the Swedish expert commentator (Anders "Ankan" Parmström) used to speak about Blake as an overrated player with bad defensive positioning. Blake didn't look good Internationally, on large ice. I think he ended up on a tournament all-star-team, but comments here in Sweden was that he got it due to his name rather than his play. He probably was more suited for NHL play, where the ice surface is smaller and he could use his size.

Rob Blake was voted best defenseman at the 1998 Olympics:
(Hasek was voted best goalie, and Bure was voted best forward)

Source: Archives - Hockey sur glace

 

[seventieslord]

Blake didn't play all that long ago, and there's a pretty sizeable contingent of fans who believe that his Norris voting record is inflated due to the extra notoriety that comes with the big hits and big shots (a slightly better Shea Weber, who's like a much better Bryan McCabe, who's like a slightly better Dion Phaneuf, who's like a much better Sheldon Souray...(edit) - who was a much better Jack Johnson!)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Blake didn't play all that long ago, and there's a pretty sizeable contingent of fans who believe that his Norris voting record is inflated due to the extra notoriety that comes with the big hits and big shots (a slightly better Shea Weber, who's like a much better Bryan McCabe, who's like a slightly better Dion Phaneuf, who's like a much better Sheldon Souray...)

Yes, like Shea Weber, who was voted 156th.

We are in the 170s.

I'm not in a big hurry to add Blake (not with J.C. Tremblay still available), but I think he belongs in the discussion.

 

[The Macho King]

Just a quick thing on Carey Price: We've added numerous active defensemen and forwards. Do we really think there isn't a single active goalie who is a top 200 player of all-time?

Are we counting Lundquist as active?

I think we have a couple of guys who *may* end up with good cases (Vasilevskiy with a Cup, a Vezina, another likely Vezina and 4 top 3 finishes on a team that doesn't appear to be going anywhere anytime soon will likely be a guy added at some point, but him and Helleybuck are only 26/27 years old). I mentioned it earlier, but Price is in that generation gap with guys like Ben Bishop, Ryan Miller, Tuukka Rask, and a few others who for one reason or another didn't have the consistency you would expect from previous generations (although I think Rask is an interesting case here vis a vis Price). We're also in the "apparently anyone except whoever is in net for the Leafs in the playoffs can be a quality starting goaltender" era, so ... maybe? The talent of the position (and the corresponding results) may be the best it has ever been, but it's harder to create separation in that environment.

 

[seventieslord]

Yes, like Shea Weber, who was voted 156th.

We are in the 170s.

I'm not in a big hurry to add Blake (not with J.C. Tremblay still available), but I think he belongs in the discussion.

Yeah, my bad, I need to catch up with the times on that one, Weber has clearly passed Blake, but the concept applies to them in the same way.

 

[MXD]

Price and Lundqvist are in the same generation the same way Ovechkin and Hedman are in the same generation. In other words, not quite (at best).

 

[sr edler]

Rob Blake was voted best defenseman at the 1998 Olympics:
(Hasek was voted best goalie, and Bure was voted best forward)

How much of that is because he put up an all-time great performance, and how much of that is because no one else stood out on D that tournament? Hasek was very memorable in goal, and Bure too on forward. On forward, Selänne and Koivu too were really memorable. I don't really remember much of Blake from that tournament, but I also didn't follow Canada religiously either.

Regarding D, on the finalists, Czech Republic and Russia, no one stood out on D but both teams had a by-committee make up, rolling with the likes of Kasparaitis and Petr Svoboda. Bronze medalists Finland, also no one stood out on D, by-committee thing. Sweden bombed with Lidström, this was before his big come out party. That leaves us with Canada and US, finishing 4th and 6th respectively. And since the US bombed perhaps even more so than Sweden, and is most remembered for hotel room antics, it leaves us with only Canada.

For Canada, this was kind of in a gap between Bourque's generation and when the likes of Pronger took over, and I feel Rob Blake just snuck in there as some kind of intermediate presence. I'm not trying to bag on Blake here in general, he was a good player and he most likely put up a very stellar performance, I'm just wondering how much it holds up in an all-time sense.

 

[The Macho King]

Price and Lundqvist are in the same generation the same way Ovechkin and Hedman are in the same generation. In other words, not quite (at best).

Their peaks and primes don't overlap, I'll agree to that. Like I said earlier - Price's generation either has a bunch of really brittle guys, or a bunch of short peak guys. His best generation comparable is Tuukka Rask I think. And maybe Bobrovsky?

 

[MXD]

Their peaks and primes don't overlap, I'll agree to that. Like I said earlier - Price's generation either has a bunch of really brittle guys, or a bunch of short peak guys. His best generation comparable is Tuukka Rask I think. And maybe Bobrovsky?

Not only that -- their age, too. 5 year gap. Same as Ovie and Hedman.

Price's best "age" comparables would be, on top of my head, Quick, Rask, Fleury, Crawford and Bob.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Vezina top 5s

2011 - 5th
2014 - 4th
2015 - 1st
2017 - 3rd

That's it

His AST record (trimmed to only top 10s)
2011 - 4th
2014 - 4th
2015 - 1st
2017 - 5th
2019 - 3rd
2020 - 8th

Vs Tuukka Rask

2014 - 5th
2015 - 1st
2020 - 2nd

2010 - 5th
2013 - 4th
2014 - 1st
2017 - 7th
2018 - 8th
2020 - 2nd

1, 3, 4, 5 vs 1, 2, 5
1, 3, 4, 4, 5, 8 vs 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8

 

[The Macho King]

Not only that -- their age, too. 5 year gap. Same as Ovie and Hedman.

Price's best "age" comparables would be, on top of my head, Quick, Rask, Fleury, Crawford and Bob.

This gets us into the Lidstrom/Martin St. Louis issue of "how much of your generation is age versus when you were good." I don't really know the answer to that one.

 

[MXD]

This doesn't really pertains to Price or to anything (... yeah, maybe Fuhr, though extremely indirectly). but there's only three goalies born after 1970 (Brodeur at the beginning of the decade, and Luongo at the end) on the list so far, and only two born in the 70ies, which feels a bit wrong to me, though there's probably one VERY obvious candidate born in the 70ies not yet available.

 

[plusandminus]

Rob Blake was voted best defenseman at the 1998 Olympics:
(Hasek was voted best goalie, and Bure was voted best forward)

Yeah, maybe that was the tournament I remember, or if there were several. Anyway, the expert commentator I mentioned (former elite player, coach, national team coach, etc.) was very skilled at judging/evaluating players. And his impression of Blake was sort of what @seventieslord write.

Source: Archives - Hockey sur glace

Wow, what a great site at first glance! First time I see it! If it's not in the sticked section with links (I haven't gone through them all) I suggest it to be put there.

 

[The Macho King]

This doesn't really pertains to Price or to anything (... yeah, maybe Fuhr, though extremely indirectly). but there's only three goalies born after 1970 (Brodeur at the beginning of the decade, and Luongo at the end) on the list so far, and only two born in the 70ies, which feels a bit wrong to me, though there's probably one VERY obvious candidate born in the 70ies not yet available.

I don't know - goaltending feels very "top heavy" in most of the modern era, until post lockout when it suddenly became "everyone posts between .910 and .920 no matter what." I don't know if the age issue surprises me, or if it is even incorrect. It just feels like a really hard time to distinguish yourself as a goalie.

How that relates to Price? Interesting question. You could argue that, because for a time he *did* distinguish himself, that should make him more notable. I don't buy that logic personally, but it's not entirely unconvincing.

 

[MXD]

I don't know - goaltending feels very "top heavy" in most of the modern era, until post lockout when it suddenly became "everyone posts between .910 and .920 no matter what." I don't know if the age issue surprises me, or if it is even incorrect. It just feels like a really hard time to distinguish yourself as a goalie.

How that relates to Price? Interesting question. You could argue that, because for a time he *did* distinguish himself, that should make him more notable. I don't buy that logic personally, but it's not entirely unconvincing.

Private message.

 

[bobholly39]

Since we're still on the topic of Price.

How much value should we give to all the recent NHLPA (and even The Athletic and other reputable sources have done player polls) player polls of the past ~3-4 years where Price is voted #1 best goalie in the league by the players every year. And this is mostly "post-peak" Price, since we're not in 2015. Players still feel very strongly about him being the best (to be literal, they word the question different each year, in 2020 I think it was 'which goalie do you take for game 7 in the playoffs' - but it's always meant to pick the best/most reliable goalie).

Reputation-wise among players - it's sky high.

He plays on bad teams. Most years, he's had very bad defense in front of him. I think this affects his numbers greatly, moreso than many other "top goalies" who usually have played on good teams often.

Going back to my question - how much value should we give to those player polls, if any?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Since we're still on the topic of Price.

How much value should we give to all the recent NHLPA (and even The Athletic and other reputable sources have done player polls) player polls of the past ~3-4 years where Price is voted #1 best goalie in the league by the players every year. And this is mostly "post-peak" Price, since we're not in 2015. Players still feel very strongly about him being the best (to be literal, they word the question different each year, in 2020 I think it was 'which goalie do you take for game 7 in the playoffs' - but it's always meant to pick the best/most reliable goalie).

Reputation-wise among players - it's sky high.

He plays on bad teams. Most years, he's had very bad defense in front of him. I think this affects his numbers greatly, moreso than many other "top goalies" who usually have played on good teams often.

Going back to my question - how much value should we give to those player polls, if any?

The rankings last year

Price - 33%
MAF - 23%
Vasilevsky - 11%
Rask - 7%
Binnington - 7%

No changing of the guard here. Carey Price is the winner again, with a larger percentage share of a larger group of players, despite his struggles this season. Reputation matters, it seems.

2019

The wording of this question had the unintended consequence of many players just picking their own goalie. As a result, 24 different goalies received at least one vote. But that didn’t stop Carey Price from running away with the title. After a season to forget in 2017-18, Price bounced back nicely this season and seems to have never lost the confidence of his peers.

 

[MXD]

The rankings last year

Price - 33%
MAF - 23%
Vasilevsky - 11%
Rask - 7%
Binnington - 7%



2019

...Come on now, there's no evidence that Price benefitted more of this than any other goalie.
I mean, he probably had more votes from player of his team than any other goalie, but he also had more votes than any other goalie.

As for these polls, well, we just can't completely ignore them if polls of a similar nature were also considered. That would be dishonest. The conclusion about reputation mattering isn't new to 2019 either.

But we're probably better placed to asterisk this poll than we are for, say, a 1927 poll.

 

[ResilientBeast]

...Come on now, there's no evidence that Price benefitted more of this than any other goalie.
I mean, he probably had more votes from player of his team than any other goalie, but he also had more votes than any other goalie...

True, I just don't assign very much(~0) value to it in general

 

[tarheelhockey]

My general first-reaction tiers for now. In all likelihood they'll shuffle around a bit before the end:

Lionel Conacher - His case is more than just his stats and awards. Like Frank Fredrickson, he was often the biggest personality in the room. A complex figure but without question a leader.
Grant Fuhr
Mark Recchi - See Tremblay below.
Luc Robitaille
J.C. Tremblay - I'm not overly sold on him, really, but against this group he looks more appealing than before

Rob Blake - Thought about putting him in the bottom tier, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.
Babe Dye - At some point this week I'll revisit him. He's dogged by some pretty significant negatives, but still... he did score a lot.
Jean Ratelle
Brendan Shanahan - I'm probably higher on Shanahan than I should be. I see him as a guy who was more valuable than his stats. You wanted Shanahan in your foxhole.
Billy Smith

Michel Goulet
Jacques Lemaire
Carey Price - I struggle to see Price on Fuhr's level in terms of career, even though I recognize Price's high peak.
Denis Savard - Might be easier to get behind him if he'd peaked a little higher or remained at a high level a little longer.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

it's interesting to see denis savard only now.

in fairness, this is probably right for him, but on gut feel i feel like twenty years ago he would have been a strong contender to fall just out of the bottom of the top 100, not coming in at potentially the bottom of the top 200.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Price is gonna be the one time where eye test will override the resume for me.

 

[Theokritos]

Wow, what a great site at first glance! First time I see it! If it's not in the sticked section with links (I haven't gone through them all) I suggest it to be put there.

It has been a widely-known site for almost 20 years, so I never even thought of adding it, but now that you mention it – good idea.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

it's interesting to see denis savard only now.

in fairness, this is probably right for him, but on gut feel i feel like twenty years ago he would have been a strong contender to fall just out of the bottom of the top 100, not coming in at potentially the bottom of the top 200.

He's a YouTube star.

Fans of "he could do some wild shit" would rank him higher. Because he could.

This is pretty much where I had him ranked.