Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 15

[MXD]

I totally remember making that point last discussion. Don't be salty a player you don't like made it - I'm not even a voter.

And if you really want to stake Price's position on his performances being "non-shitty" for the past three or four seasons, I'm here for that argument.

On preempting - I'm discussing a player up for consideration, and one that was actively being discussed on this page. I'm sorry if you don't like that.

Price stands out to me because he's at least a bit in that Luongo/Lundqvist generation, and clearly behind there, but he's also kind of in the modern goalie generation (where I don't think anyone would take him before Vasi or Helleybuck for instance). So finding where he fits in that discussion is an interesting exercise. A lot of the guys who started around the same time as him - Ryan Miller for instance - lack consistency to be worthy of the top 200. So is his "best in the world" argument for a period of three seasons because of merit, or because of odd generational construction (not dissimilar from say Niedermayer's peak as a defenseman coinciding with a changing of the guard)?

Stop lawyering up and stop moving goalposts.

For my take on Carey Price, I'll refer you to my first post in this thead.

But you're working really hard to making me change my mind.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Carey Price doesn't have the postseason rep to make up for his lack of depth in the regular season. Not his fault as Montreal has been a dumpster fire until more recently but outside of 1 year insane peak and a few other solid years, his career is pretty barren.

I think he's absolutely better than his resume shows, but some of rep is being fortunate enough to have played on strong teams consistently.

 

[The Macho King]

Stop lawyering up and stop moving goalposts.

For my take on Carey Price, I'll refer you to my first post in this thead.

But you're working really hard to making me change my mind.

That would really show me.

I don't see how anything I said is even remotely controversial. Price is here solely because of his peak (and probably playing in Montreal). And there are ineligible players who likely have a better peak - especially when factoring in playoffs.

 

[The Macho King]

Price talk aside - is Blake a new add? I don't remember discussion on him last round.

Feels about a million years too early for Blake.

Edit: I say that and then look at his HR page. 1 Norris, 4 times total top 3, two other top 10 finishes, with a peak that's fairly concentrated in time. So I guess not. I can't help but feel that his Norris may be one of the weakest Norris' in the expansion era though (setting aside Langway takes).

 

[MXD]

That would really show me.

I don't see how anything I said is even remotely controversial. Price is here solely because of his peak (and probably playing in Montreal). And there are ineligible players who likely have a better peak - especially when factoring in playoffs.

....Again.

 

[The Macho King]

....Again.

Is it news that playing in Montreal gets a lot of media attention? Especially as goalie? I'm sure when a player isn't playing well it's tough, but when they are you get the Roy and Plante comparisons pretty quickly.

I am generally critical of dynasty-era Habs players getting in based on being the fifth best player on a team, but that doesn't apply to why I don't think Price belongs now. If Price had more hardware and more of a peak, he'd absolutely be worthy.

It's odd because just generally, the Habs are pretty low on "most hated teams" list as a fan. I've been pumping Bergeron's tires and now apparently Tim Thomas, and trust me I hate the Bruins a hell of a lot more than the Habs.

 

[bobholly39]

Price has one Vezina and one other top 3 finish, no signature playoff runs. His peak season was absolutely *insane*, but it was one season (plus the first 10 games of the following season).

International - is there an easier job than goalie for Team Canada this decade? He did the job - fine - but a) international QoC was at a lull during that period with every other team being far below Canada at multiple positions, and b) that defense suffocated every team it was up against.

For instance - can we really say that Price's career is better than say - Tim Thomas? As far as the people on this list, he certainly has the highest peak with a Hart + Vezina, but especially with Smith and Fuhr on the table, I don't see how that creates any separation there.

He played in front of a great team for sure - but his performance was stellar. Didn't he have 2 shutouts in the last 2 games, finals + semi-finals in the 2014 Olympics? And I think it was a high shot count too.

I think Carey Price might be the #1 Canadian goalie of all-time when it comes to International resume. It's not a huge gap over others maybe, and maybe it's not the biggest of differentiators vs other players here - but I don't think it's fair to talk down on his International resume, or try and undersell it.

 

[ResilientBeast]

He played in front of a great team for sure - but his performance was stellar. Didn't he have 2 shutouts in the last 2 games, finals + semi-finals in the 2014 Olympics? And I think it was a high shot count too.

I think Carey Price might be the #1 Canadian goalie of all-time when it comes to International resume. It's not a huge gap over others maybe, and maybe it's not the biggest of differentiators vs other players here - but I don't think it's fair to talk down on his International resume, or try and undersell it.

He played great on the strongest team in the tournament that doesn't mean that much to me

 

[bobholly39]

He played great on the strongest team in the tournament that doesn't mean that much to me

Can't you say the same thing about almost every Conn Smythe winner in history? Weird comment

 

[The Macho King]

He played in front of a great team for sure - but his performance was stellar. Didn't he have 2 shutouts in the last 2 games, finals + semi-finals in the 2014 Olympics? And I think it was a high shot count too.

I think Carey Price might be the #1 Canadian goalie of all-time when it comes to International resume. It's not a huge gap over others maybe, and maybe it's not the biggest of differentiators vs other players here - but I don't think it's fair to talk down on his International resume, or try and undersell it.

It's the Dryden or (more relevant to this discussion) Billy Smith/Grant Fuhr question, right? He absolutely did his job, but he did it behind what was clearly the most talented team top to bottom in the tournaments. And to be fair, one of the reasons they *were* the most talented team was because he was arguably the best goalie as well.

You could list out a half dozen players and say they were most important to Team Canada's success, and each would have a good argument. I personally discount the whole thing because a) International Competition opportunities are not doled out equally (Kopitar, for instance, cannot distinguish himself on a team full of ECHL-level talent), and b) the tournaments are so short as to be subject to small sample size issues.

 

[The Macho King]

Can't you say the same thing about almost every Conn Smythe winner in history? Weird comment

This has two issues - one is Price the "Conn Smythe" winner equivalent of Team Canada in those tourneys? I'm not sure he is (certainly has an argument though). Second - outside of maybe the 70s dynasty Habs and the 80s Oilers, we are talking about a team that is orders of magnitude better than their competition versus the standard Cup winner (or even a particularly strong Cup Winner a la the 90s Red Wings or 90s Pens).

 

[ResilientBeast]

Can't you say the same thing about almost every Conn Smythe winner in history? Weird comment

Intentionally obtuse comment, the Cup finals are usually two teams on equalish footing.

Not Team Canada against Team Latvia

Price has only played in two "best on best tournaments" the 2014 Olympics and the 2016 WCH if that technically counts with the gimmick Team Europe and Team NA

 

[MXD]

You could list out a half dozen players and say they were most important to Team Canada's success, and each would have a good argument. I personally discount the whole thing because a) International Competition opportunities are not doled out equally (Kopitar, for instance, cannot distinguish himself on a team full of ECHL-level talent), and b) the tournaments are so short as to be subject to small sample size issues.

Why the hell would someone completely ignore best-on-best tournaments?

 

[The Macho King]

Why the hell would someone completely ignore best-on-best tournaments?

Because they're not actually "Best on Best" tournaments. They're national tournaments, and generally nations don't have equal talent pools to pull from.

I make an exception for CSSR/USSR players in competitions because that's the only way to benchmark their performance against NHL players, but the real "best on best" tournament is the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Edit: Hasek and Jagr aren't where they are because of Nagano. Bobby Clarke isn't where he is because of '72. And frankly, Lundquist isn't where he is because of '06. We have so much more data to work with against top competition that highlighting a brief, single elimination tournament as anything other than an answer to a trivia question does the entire project a disservice in my view.

 

[MXD]

Intentionally obtuse comment, the Cup finals are usually two teams on equalish footing.

Not Team Canada against Team Latvia

Price has only played in two "best on best tournaments" the 2014 Olympics and the 2016 WCH if that technically counts with the gimmick Team Europe and Team NA

I think it boils down to three things :
- Price played great
- Price didn't have to work that much.
- Price could've played a bit worse and the results wouldn't have been significantly different.

I mean, he possibly couldn't have played better. He did was he was asked to do, pretty much flawlessly. It just that it the end, he wasn't asked that much.

 

[ResilientBeast]

The 2014 Olympics Price played 5 games

Price defeated the juggernauts of

• Norway (stopping 19 shots vs 35 for Haugen)
• Finland (stopping 14 shots vs 25 for Rask)
• Latvia (stopping 15 shots vs 55 for Gudlevskis)
• USA (stopping 31 shots vs 36 for Quick)
• Sweden (stopping 24 shots vs 33 for Lundqvist)

 

[ResilientBeast]

I think it boils down to three things :
- Price played great
- Price didn't have to work that much.
- Price could've played a bit worse and the results wouldn't have been significantly different.

I mean, he possibly couldn't have played better. He did was he was asked to do, pretty much flawlessly. It just that it the end, he wasn't asked that much.

I agree wholeheartedly, his international performance just doesn't do much for me, a lot of variance over a 5 game sample. And an artificially high floor by playing on the strongest team in the tournament

 

[MXD]

Because they're not actually "Best on Best" tournaments. They're national tournaments, and generally nations don't have equal talent pools to pull from.

I make an exception for CSSR/USSR players in competitions because that's the only way to benchmark their performance against NHL players, but the real "best on best" tournament is the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Most if not all national teams that go in the final stages of Best-on-Best International Tournaments are better than the Stanley Cup finals teams.

 

[bobholly39]

One huge season, 3 year peak, lots of ups and downs. Isn't that every starting goalie of the last 15 years?

Don't forget the consistency as a top 5-10 goalie in the league in his prime.

In 12 seasons played, he has 7 seasons top 10 in Vezina voting (not counting 12 game sample in 2016, though he was great in that timeframe).

Tim Thomas who was brought up has 3 top 10 Vezina placements in 9 years

Other modern day comparables:

Lundqvist - 10 top 10 Vezina placements in 15 seasons
Luongo - 9 top 10 Vezina in 19 seasons

Considering how bad Montreal has been most of Price's career, I say that's remarkable consistency from his part. It's very hard for goalies to do well on bad, or non-playoff teams. Even Patrick Roy - as great as he is, has been on playoff teams his whole career. The one year he played on a bad, nonplayoff team (94-95 Habs) - he got 0 Vezina votes.

 

[The Macho King]

Top 10 in Vezina means crap. There are 30 players to choose from, and 30 voters (give or take - 31 now obviously), and ending up in the top 10 may mean as much as a single vote on one ballot.

At least give me top 5. Top 10 in Vezina means... league average goalie?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Top 10 in Vezina means crap. There are 30 players to choose from, and 30 voters (give or take - 31 now obviously), and ending up in the top 10 may mean as much as a single vote on one ballot.

At least give me top 5. Top 10 in Vezina means... league average goalie?

Vezina top 5s

2011 - 5th
2014 - 4th
2015 - 1st
2017 - 3rd

That's it

His AST record (trimmed to only top 10s)
2011 - 4th
2014 - 4th
2015 - 1st
2017 - 5th
2019 - 3rd
2020 - 8th

 

[bobholly39]

This has two issues - one is Price the "Conn Smythe" winner equivalent of Team Canada in those tourneys? I'm not sure he is (certainly has an argument though). Second - outside of maybe the 70s dynasty Habs and the 80s Oilers, we are talking about a team that is orders of magnitude better than their competition versus the standard Cup winner (or even a particularly strong Cup Winner a la the 90s Red Wings or 90s Pens).

The comment I was responding to was about "playing great on the best team in the tourney". Which is a weird thing to call out, because if so it would include every Conn Smythe winner in history.
If the 2014 Olympics were given a "Conn Smythe" - you're right, he would have been in the running. Maybe he wins, maybe he doesn't, but it's besides the point I was responding to. Don't discount his performance for playing on a great team is all I'm saying.

Case in point - I know you're a Tampa fan. I'd almost argue Tampa > Dallas is a bigger gap than Canada > US or Sweden in 2014. That's a hell of a roster Tampa has currently. In any future historical analysis, I surely won't use that as a reason to discount any of Hedman, Kucherov, Vasi or Point's individual contributions to that Cup win.

Intentionally obtuse comment, the Cup finals are usually two teams on equalish footing.

Not Team Canada against Team Latvia

Price has only played in two "best on best tournaments" the 2014 Olympics and the 2016 WCH if that technically counts with the gimmick Team Europe and Team NA

I was referring to the final 2 games, against US and Sweden. Two very strong teams, if not as strong as Canada.

Because they're not actually "Best on Best" tournaments. They're national tournaments, and generally nations don't have equal talent pools to pull from.

I make an exception for CSSR/USSR players in competitions because that's the only way to benchmark their performance against NHL players, but the real "best on best" tournament is the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Edit: Hasek and Jagr aren't where they are because of Nagano. Bobby Clarke isn't where he is because of '72. And frankly, Lundquist isn't where he is because of '06. We have so much more data to work with against top competition that highlighting a brief, single elimination tournament as anything other than an answer to a trivia question does the entire project a disservice in my view.

Jagr and certainly Hasek got plenty of recognition for Nagano or other international success. No one is saying "International Resume > NHL resume" in importance - just that it should be recognized for whatever value it deserves, and not cast aside.

Carey Price has a fantastic international resume. It's a plus in his overall resume.

The 2014 Olympics Price played 5 games

Price defeated the juggernauts of

• Norway (stopping 19 shots vs 35 for Haugen)
• Finland (stopping 14 shots vs 25 for Rask)
• Latvia (stopping 15 shots vs 55 for Gudlevskis)
• USA (stopping 31 shots vs 36 for Quick)
• Sweden (stopping 24 shots vs 33 for Lundqvist)

Vs Finland. He only let in 1 goal, and his team won by 1 goal. Super slim margin of error
Vs Lativa. He only let in 1 goal, and his team won by 1 goal. Super slim margin of error
Vs USA. Shutout, and his team only won by 1 goal. Super slim margin of error
Vs Sweden shutout, but his team won 3-0. But again, shutout, can't do much better than that.

He was perfect in the final 2 games vs the toughest opponent. And his margin of error was inexistent in most games who were 1 goal games.

Nobody's denying that it's easier for him to do what he did playing for Team Canada than playing for a different team.

I brought up Vasi and Tampa's cup win earlier in this post. He was fantastic in the playoffs last year. Game 1 of the SCF though, Dallas won and he let in 3 goals in 19 shots. Good thing Tampa Bay had a margin of error with this being a 7 game series.

Canada had no margin of error. Carey Price was fantastic in 2014, in tight single elimination 1-goal games. I think he should get credit for that.

 

[bobholly39]

Top 10 in Vezina means crap. There are 30 players to choose from, and 30 voters (give or take - 31 now obviously), and ending up in the top 10 may mean as much as a single vote on one ballot.

At least give me top 5. Top 10 in Vezina means... league average goalie?

Fair enough. Top 10 can sometimes mean 1 vote. I wasn't suggesting top 10 is elite, more that it just shows he was a consistent high end goalie in the league (~top 5-10), which in a league with so much turnover at the goalie position, shouldn't be overlooked.

Carey Price - 4 top 5 Vezina placements in 12 seasons
Tim Thomas - 2 top 5 Vezina placements in 9 seasons
Luongo - 5 top 5 vezina placements in 19 seasons
Lundqvist - 7 top 5 vezina placements in 15 seasons

Still looks quite good vs Luongo, who was voted in a while ago.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Why the hell would someone completely ignore best-on-best tournaments?

Especially since 3 of the 5 voted in last round were Sundin, Nedomansky, and Kasatonov.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just a quick thing on Carey Price: We've added numerous active defensemen and forwards. Do we really think there isn't a single active goalie who is a top 200 player of all-time?