Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 15

[vadim sharifijanov]

I don't know if I would call it that. It's more of a case of, he had to play 80 games against the entire league, and then got to play two playoff rounds against terrible Norris division teams.

i've debunked this before

fun fact, because i think i’ve seen the norris cited before as a possible factor in savard’s excellent playoff scoring:

up to the chelios trade, savard’s scoring in the third round: 26 games, 12 goals, 20 assists, 32 points, 98.4615 points/80 pace

his total playoff scoring up to the trade: 99 games, 53 goals, 69 assists, 122 points, 98.5858 points/80 pace

edit: OT but nb. the norris argument also doesn't look like it works for federko if you look round by round — see here

 

[blogofmike]

I don't know if I would call it that. It's more of a case of, he had to play 80 games against the entire league, and then got to play two playoff rounds against terrible Norris division teams.

Savard also scored 26 points in 16 games against the Edmonton Oilers (6 points in 4 games in 83, and 10 in 6 in both 85 and 90).

For Chicago, Savard was a dangerous playoff scorer through the 1995 resurgent run.

 

[overpass]

I don't know if I would call it that. It's more of a case of, he had to play 80 games against the entire league, and then got to play two playoff rounds against terrible Norris division teams.

Savard's scoring held up in the conference finals, even though Chicago lost every time. 1.23 points/game against 3 Cup winners and 2 Cup finalists is pretty good.

Season	Opponent	GP	G	A	P	+/-	Pts/G
1981-82	Vancouver	5	3	1	4	-4	0.80
1982-83	Edmonton	4	1	5	6	1	1.50
1984-85	Edmonton	6	3	7	10	-6	1.67
1988-89	Calgary	5	2	0	2	-1	0.40
1989-90	Edmonton	6	3	7	10	2	1.67
Total	Total	26	12	20	32	-8	1.23

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Even when past his prime in 1995 he scored 4 goals and 6 points in 5 games against Detroit in the conference finals.

 

[tarheelhockey]

i think if savard finishing third behind gretzky and mario, with a ten point cushion on 4 (hawerchuk) and twenty point cushion on 5 (messier/robitaille/stastny) is behind recchi finishing third behind jagr minust twenty games and bure, something is very wrong with the metric.

I would also say it feels a little odd, if I'm reading the chart correctly, for Recchi's 1991 and Savard's 1983 to be labeled as identical down to the decimal. IMO Savard's 1983 is plainly the better season... he finished 3rd as opposed to 4th, with a 3-point gap to 2nd place as opposed to 18 points.

And I know that VsX isn't built to measure team rankings, but FWIW in 1991 Recchi led his team by 19 points based on a large GP advantage over guys who were also scoring at his pace. In 1983 Savard led his team by 31 points while playing a couple fewer games than the guys behind him.

 

[ted2019]

I don't know if I would call it that. It's more of a case of, he had to play 80 games against the entire league, and then got to play two playoff rounds against terrible Norris division teams.

That's true, but unfortunately that's who he had to play.

 

[ted2019]

This table doesn't look right to me for some reason? Like does the math make sense, or am I just misreading the point here?

It could be a bit off as I did it on 4 hours sleep.

 

[blogofmike]

Savard's scoring held up in the conference finals, even though Chicago lost every time. 1.23 points/game against 3 Cup winners and 2 Cup finalists is pretty good.

Season	Opponent	GP	G	A	P	+/-	Pts/G
1981-82	Vancouver	5	3	1	4	-4	0.80
1982-83	Edmonton	4	1	5	6	1	1.50
1984-85	Edmonton	6	3	7	10	-6	1.67
1988-89	Calgary	5	2	0	2	-1	0.40
1989-90	Edmonton	6	3	7	10	2	1.67
Total	Total	26	12	20	32	-8	1.23

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Even when past his prime in 1995 he scored 4 goals and 6 points in 5 games against Detroit in the conference finals.

Denis Savard seems to have been a legitimate playoff scorer against a variety of opponents.

If only there was a way to re-rank him above Norm Ullman...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

If only there was a way to re-rank him above Norm Ullman...

it’s funny, i never thought of savard as a short peak or short prime guy.

he has a nine year run as a legit superstar scorer. his per game placements from 82 to 90 are 7, 3, 16, 11, 7, 6, 3, 8, 8.

the last two he missed ~ 20 games each season, but the per games are comfortably in the top ten and he backed both years up in the playoffs.

in the playoffs, even with the advantages of not having to play the oilers/flames or habs/bruins every year, and having an elite running mate on the blueline, he easily trounces hawerchuk and stastny.

i’ve been talking about savard a lot itt...

 

[tarheelhockey]

it’s funny, i never thought of savard as a short peak or short prime guy.

Some of it is being compared to guys like Recchi, Shanahan, Robitaille who just seemed to stick around forever. Savard was done as a major force in the league by age 30 and retired at 35, whereas Shanahan for example had a 40-goal season at 37. Ratelle was still over PPG at 39.

Savard isn't a true short-career guy like Dye, Goulet, Lemaire (and I guess Tremblay if we're talking about NHL seasons). He kind of falls in between the two extremes here, as does Conacher.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Denis Savard seems to have been a legitimate playoff scorer against a variety of opponents.

If only there was a way to re-rank him above Norm Ullman...

Why would you try and rank him above a superior player?

 

[seventieslord]

i've debunked this before




edit: OT but nb. the norris argument also doesn't look like it works for federko if you look round by round — see here

Savard also scored 26 points in 16 games against the Edmonton Oilers (6 points in 4 games in 83, and 10 in 6 in both 85 and 90).

For Chicago, Savard was a dangerous playoff scorer through the 1995 resurgent run.

Savard's scoring held up in the conference finals, even though Chicago lost every time. 1.23 points/game against 3 Cup winners and 2 Cup finalists is pretty good.

Season	Opponent	GP	G	A	P	+/-	Pts/G
1981-82	Vancouver	5	3	1	4	-4	0.80
1982-83	Edmonton	4	1	5	6	1	1.50
1984-85	Edmonton	6	3	7	10	-6	1.67
1988-89	Calgary	5	2	0	2	-1	0.40
1989-90	Edmonton	6	3	7	10	2	1.67
Total	Total	26	12	20	32	-8	1.23

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Even when past his prime in 1995 he scored 4 goals and 6 points in 5 games against Detroit in the conference finals.

Thanks for the information, guys. I was ready to say, "guess I was wrong" but had all day to think about it and my point is this - it's not necessarily the results themselves, it's the competition, whatever the results were.

Savard did very well against non-Norris opponents. He also did very well against Norris opponents. Being that Norris opponents were typically very easy to score on, it's still reasonable to conclude that he had an easier time scoring against them than he would have versus more difficult opponents.

 

[blogofmike]

Why would you try and rank him above a superior player?

Thanks for the information, guys. I was ready to say, "guess I was wrong" but had all day to think about it and my point is this - it's not necessarily the results themselves, it's the competition, whatever the results were.

Savard did very well against non-Norris opponents. He also did very well against Norris opponents. Being that Norris opponents were typically very easy to score on, it's still reasonable to conclude that he had an easier time scoring against them than he would have versus more difficult opponents.

In the 4 division era Savard scored 1.23 PPG when the Chicago Blackhawks played Cup winners and finalists from the Smythe. He cashed in on that hapless Norris by scoring 1.29 PPG (90 in 70). How dare he score an extra 3-4 points over 70 games against Norris opponents?!?

Meanwhile the Superior Ullman scored in the playoffs against a SINGLE TEAM that was known for running up huge GA totals in the 1960s playoffs. Outside of years inflated by points against that single team, Ullman's typical playoff performance is to score 0.50 PPG. Meanwhile his opponents score so much that Ullman was a +1 player ONCE, and was never a plus player again in any year where it's available. And even that +1 is inflated by a +5 against Chicago that offset the -4 in the Finals when Ullman played Insert Any Other Team. But apparently that all seems on the level for some reason...

A prime Denis Savard could score against good teams in the playoffs. Had Savard swapped places with a prime Ullman, perhaps Gordie Howe's 1960s playoff performances wouldn't have gone to waste. Ullman didn't score. Ullman didn't stop the other team from scoring. It's an odd kind of superiority where you're always not scoring and the other team is.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Thanks for the information, guys. I was ready to say, "guess I was wrong" but had all day to think about it and my point is this - it's not necessarily the results themselves, it's the competition, whatever the results were.

Savard did very well against non-Norris opponents. He also did very well against Norris opponents. Being that Norris opponents were typically very easy to score on, it's still reasonable to conclude that he had an easier time scoring against them than he would have versus more difficult opponents.

according to my numbers, pre-trade savard scored at almost exactly the same rate in the first two and third rounds, down to a tenth of a point. isn’t the most obvious conclusion that he had just as easy a time scoring against norris and smythe teams?

and if we see this same pattern with federko, and gilmour, joe mullen, ciccarelli (which we do, though not as exactly down to the decimal as savard), then maybe the logical next step is to ask whether norris teams were in fact easier to score on than smythe teams in the playoffs, or even adams/patrick teams? i guess someone would have to run the numbers.

my point here is the evidence doesn’t support the received wisdom here. weaker teams aren’t necessarily more likely to let in more goals than stronger teams, they’re just more likely to lose games. but again, i haven’t done the legwork.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Some of it is being compared to guys like Recchi, Shanahan, Robitaille who just seemed to stick around forever. Savard was done as a major force in the league by age 30 and retired at 35, whereas Shanahan for example had a 40-goal season at 37. Ratelle was still over PPG at 39.

Savard isn't a true short-career guy like Dye, Goulet, Lemaire (and I guess Tremblay if we're talking about NHL seasons). He kind of falls in between the two extremes here, as does Conacher.

otoh, his nine year peak was so much longer than anyone else you mentioned, including robitaille

and 82-90, over a 96 game sample, savard is only outscored in the playoffs by four oilers. among players with 40+ games, he’s fourth in points/game. if you lower the threshold to 30, then also pederson and he’s a tiny bit behind hawerchuk and yzerman (hawerchuk is 1.5 pts/80 ahead, yzerman less than 1 pt). if you lower to 10, also mario.

 

[seventieslord]

according to my numbers, pre-trade savard scored at almost exactly the same rate in the first two and third rounds, down to a tenth of a point. isn’t the most obvious conclusion that he had just as easy a time scoring against norris and smythe teams?

No. The norris teams were easier to score against. That part shouldn't really be questioned, but I'll get to that. He scored at exactly the same rate against the more difficult teams, which is great, but the bulk of his playoff scoring was done against easier teams.

and if we see this same pattern with federko, and gilmour, joe mullen, ciccarelli (which we do, though not as exactly down to the decimal as savard), then maybe the logical next step is to ask whether norris teams were in fact easier to score on than smythe teams in the playoffs, or even adams/patrick teams? i guess someone would have to run the numbers.

Norris division average goals against versus rest of NHL, 1982-1990:

+28
+11
+33
+24
+42
+9
+24
+10
+23

On average, a Norris division team (starting when it became the Norris we know, and ending with the Chelios trade), allowed 22.5 more goals per season than the rest of the league did, or 0.28 per game. That is pretty significant. This is just using the data I compiled last year about strength of schedule.

If you are referring to the playoffs in particular, here's the link you need:

NHL Stats

manipulating the data from nhl.com is difficult by design. Norris teams were 6th, 10th, 12th and 14th in GAA (Chicago was 4th) over this time. This doesn't suggest that they were much worse than average as a whole, but they demonstrated over 9 full regular seasons that they were, as a whole, bad defensively.

my point here is the evidence doesn’t support the received wisdom here. weaker teams aren’t necessarily more likely to let in more goals than stronger teams, they’re just more likely to lose games. but again, i haven’t done the legwork.

I'm not saying they were more likely to let in more goals because of their bad W/L records, I'm saying they were more likely to let in more goals specifically because of their bad defensive records.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

but it didn’t seem to give a bump to any of the six 80s norris division playoff scorers i looked up. there has to be an explanation right?

 

[DitchMarner]

Ratelle and Savard both made the top 50 on HOH's latest top 60 Centres project. What are the main reasons each player's stock has fallen?

 

[The Macho King]

Ratelle and Savard both made the top 50 on HOH's latest top 60 Centres project. What are the main reasons each player's stock has fallen?

Wasn't that like a decade ago?

Also vis a vis the Centers on that list, are they underperforming significantly?

 

[ted2019]

Wasn't that like a decade ago?

Also vis a vis the Centers on that list, are they underperforming significantly?

2013. How time flies.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Ratelle and Savard both made the top 50 on HOH's latest top 60 Centres project. What are the main reasons each player's stock has fallen?

Other players passing them?

Edit: Also a different batch of voters so it's not exactly apples to apples.