Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 7

[blogofmike]

Not finding a whole lot, but a secondary source on the 1928 Finals: SPORTS OF THE TIMES; 1928! 1928!

Looked it up because only 2 assists were awarded on 5 Rangers goals so maybe Cook was undercounted. Cook scored 1 of the 5, and Boucher the other 4. Cook assisted on one. Ching Johnson was awarded an assist on a Boucher goal.

From the article it seems Boucher's first Game 5 goal is described as a breakaway and may have been rightly unassisted. Boucher scored the series winning goal at 15:15 of the third after putting the puck through a defender's legs. It's late enough that Cook may have been misconducted (NHL.com says the misconduct was in the 3rd period). While Boucher's final two goals of the Finals are unassisted, the only Maroons goal (17:50 of the 3rd according to the NY Times) from that game has an assist going to Babe Siebert. New York Rangers - Montreal Maroons - April 14th, 1928

 

[ted2019]

My early take very late Tuesday evening.
1. Martin Brodeur. Best player in this grouping to me
2. Joe Sakic. 2nd best player
3/4/5/6/7. Bill Cook, Cyclone Taylor, Larry Robinson, Newsy Lalonde, Bryan Trottier ( Have to dig deeper into Cook vs. Taylor vs. Lalonde to get a better grasp of things.
8/9. Mike Bossy, Terry Sawchuk. Maybe within the next 2 rounds
10. Steve Yzerman. Hard pass, 3 round early for me.
11. Ted Lindsay. 3 rounds too early for me.

 

[DitchMarner]

My early take very late Tuesday evening.
1. Martin Brodeur. Best player in this grouping to me
2. Joe Sakic. 2nd best player
3/4/5/6/7. Bill Cook, Cyclone Taylor, Larry Robinson, Newsy Lalonde, Bryan Trottier ( Have to dig deeper into Cook vs. Taylor vs. Lalonde to get a better grasp of things.
8/9. Mike Bossy, Terry Sawchuk. Maybe within the next 2 rounds
10. Steve Yzerman. Hard pass, 3 round early for me.
11. Ted Lindsay. 3 rounds too early for me.

How is Bossy better than Yzerman?

And is there that much of a difference between Sakic and Yzerman?

I would rank Sakic higher myself, though... at least without further digging.

 

[blogofmike]

I don't see it. How many times does Bossy lead the hockey world in scoring? Even pretending Gretzky didn't exist? Cook did it 3-4 times, depending on what you think of the first year he led the WCHL in scoring.

Also, Cook was one of the most physical players of his era and a great leader. Like, more noteworthy than Trottier in both those regards. What did Bossy bring other than offense?

Bossy brings a little more backchecking than Guy Lafleur, fewer penalties, and an offense that continued through the spring. Without Gretzky, he gets just the one 147 point year, but I think it's one of those things that evens out over time. Bossy was the highest scoring non-Gretzky player in the NHL over the course of his career.

Cook managed a 103.2 7-year VsX to Bossy's 97.9, but he loses to Bossy in VsX points per game over 5, 7, and 10 year samples, even as Bossy's "X" is influenced by playing in an era with peak Gretzky and/or peak Lafleur and/or peak Dionne. And while they're both "pure" goal scorers, Bossy playing in an era where assists were heavily awarded puts him at a relative disadvantage (rare for a comparison between an 80s guy and 20s guy) in terms of points finishes.

Nevertheless, however much value Cook has over Bossy in the regular season, I think it's close enough that Bossy passes Cook in the playoffs, and is more comparable to Guy Lafleur. Bossy's 35 points were a playoff record, and is better than Guy Lafleur's best run (there's no 3.0 PPG series against a hapless Blues team to pad Bossy's stats - and he's still got a better PPG than Guy's best year).

Bossy was a strong regular season scorer who remained a strong playoff (and international) scorer, and offensively was equal to or better than Trottier in both situations. Cook may have been an even better regular season performer - but he didn't deliver in the playoffs, while Frank Boucher did. He was not horrible, but he never had a great playoff run.

I'm not sure Lindsay should be below Sawchuk. Lindsay actually has some noteworthy accomplishments (including his Art Ross) before Detroit was a superteam. I could go either way there.

True. It might be easy to sleep on a year like 1948 because a 1st AS selection over Gaye Stewart is singularly unimpressive. But Ted did score more goals than Rocket Richard that year too.

 

[kruezer]

Î’ll try and post some more Lalonde info this week. His and Joe Malone’s careers interest me a lot lately (I feel like I underrated Malone on my round one list).

My favourite Lalonde anecdote is that he once got into a fight during a lacrosse match, while he was the referee. I think Newsy might be the most wilfully violent player on the list, and considering we already have Shore on this list that’s saying something.

 

[Theokritos]

I'm just going to do a mind-dump of various Yzerman related opinions I have that I think often get glossed over (in general, not necessarily on HoH)...

Thank you very much for this excellently insightful post and the follow-up.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

General Thoughts on Bill Cook Part I: Time-Loss Due to War


As we go deeper into our project, we'll come to grips with players who'll have a sizeable slab of their careers cut out due to Wartime Service. The classic cases are Syl Apps & Milt Schmidt, but Goalies such as Frank Brimsek will come under discussion as well- and maybe in the not-too-far-off future.

Now, Wartime Service loss falls into three general patterns: loss in the latter part of one's career (e.g.: Gordie Drillon, who might be the answer to the trivia question "who's the finest RWer not nominated by anybody in the preliminary round?"), loss in the middle of one's career (e.g.: Apps/Schmidt/Brimsek), and loss at the start of one's career (such as Cook).

In the case of the first two examples, the subjective adjustment I apply is clear enough to me- it's not like Drillon, Roy Conacher, Brimsek stopped being great hockey-players. It's just they weren't plying their hockey-trade due to larger forces. I used the phrase "fully-excused-absence" to describe such situations. Basically, I mentally adjust by positing performances consistent with their general run in their portfolio in place of their missing years... as they likely would have if they were competing in a more pacific time.

Now- it's our luck that the first example of Wartime Service loss we see is the more difficult one to account for- Cook's time-loss to War prior to the real start to his career. Now, did Cook stop being a great hockey-player due to his military-stint? Clearly not. He hadn't started to be a great hockey-player yet. So his case is murkier. I don't think it's too controversial to say this, though: he certainly was deprived of the opportunity to have his hockey-career develop-- and there's nothing to suggest that it wouldn't have developed markedly if he wasn't attending to Civilization's more serious matters.

The above, of course, is a hypothetical- and admittedly a bigger hypothetical than the ones we'd be inclined to apply to (for instance) Apps... but I still think it merits some partial application.

Earlier in the project, a position was articulated which basically said "only concern is what players actually did on-the-ice... won't entertain any hypotheticals." It's their right- they're responsible for their Vote. To me, however, that attitude smacks of "don't-want-to-be-troubled-with-problematic-nuances!"

I do recognize that there's another side to the 'Cook-in-Wartime' coin... and that's that maybe you could make the case that his life-experiences in the military made him a tougher cuss and might have actually helped him later in his hockey-life. When you've been "down-in-the-trenches," not metaphorically but literally, a crosscheck to the back might not seem like that big a deal.

The way to "run the test" is as follows: you have two options: take the career of Bill Cook as-it-is, change nothing and get what you know he brings to the table, guaranteed, OR you can take Door #2 and run Cook's career in a more peaceable era, and take your chances with his hockey development in his late teens-early 20s, and possibly get half-a-decade of young-prime added to his already formidable résumé. For me, I'll take Door #2.

 

[Batis]

Here are the best-on-best international tournaments numbers of the new available players. Again with a focus on the knockout stage but also taking the overall numbers into account.

Yzerman
World Cup 1996: 5 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts
Olympics 1998: 3 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts
Olympics 2002: 3 gp, 2 g, 3 a, 5 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 11 gp, 4 g, 3 a, 7 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 22 gp, 5 g, 6 a, 11 pts

Robinson
Canada Cup 1976: 2 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Canada Cup 1981: 2 gp, 0 g, 1 a, 1 pts
Canada Cup 1984: 3 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage:7 gp, 1 g, 2 a, 3 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 22 gp, 1 g, 3 a, 4 pts

With three of the players with all-time great best-on-best resumes being added last round (Fetisov, Makarov and Esposito) the competition for having the strongest best-on-best resume of the available players have decreased dramatically. Still none of Robinson and Yzerman really comes close to being able to compete with the Brodeur, Sakic, Trottier and Bossy group when it comes to best-on-best resumes.

Robinsons overall offensive production at best-on-best tournaments really is subpar when compared to the numbers of the already added defencemen. The positive for Robinson is that he did most of his scoring during the knockout stage though. And additionally Robinson did of course bring alot more than offense to the table. With that said I still don't think that Robinsons best-on-best resume is anywhere close to that of Brodeur, Sakic, Trottier and Bossy.

Yzerman has a very strange best-on-best tournaments resume. First he makes the 1984 Canada Cup team as a teenager but does not produce anything offensively over 4 group stage games and then sits out the final group stage game against the Soviets and the knockout stage games. Then he fails to make the team for the 1987 and 1991 Canada Cups. Then after reinventing himself as a player he makes the teams at the 1996, 1998 and 2002 tournaments with generally good but far from amazing results (though he was very impressive at the knockout stage of the 2002 Olympics). Considering all of this Yzerman really is a very difficult player to rank based on best-on-best resume but just like in the case of Robinson I would say that he is far behind the Brodeur, Sakic, Trottier and Bossy group.

Here are the numbers of those players again.

Brodeur
World Cup 1996: 1 gp, 15 saves on 16 shots, 0.938
Olympics 2002: 3 gp, 62 saves on 66 shots, 0.939
World Cup 2004: 2 gp, 50 saves on 52 shots, 0.962
Olympics 2006: 1 gp, 31 saves on 33 shots, 0.939
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 7 gp, 158 saves on 167 shots, 0.946

Trottier
Canada Cup 1981: 2 gp, 0 g, 3 a, 3 pts
Canada Cup 1984: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 3 gp, 0 g, 3 a, 3 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 13 gp, 8 g, 8 a, 16 pts

Bossy
Canada Cup 1981: 2 gp, 2 g, 1 a, 3 pts
Canada Cup 1984: 3 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 5 gp, 3 g, 2 a, 5 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 15 gp, 13 g, 7 a, 20 pts

Sakic
World Cup 1996: 5 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts
Olympics 1998: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Olympics 2002: 3 gp, 3 g, 3 a, 6 pts
World Cup 2004: 3 gp, 2 g, 2 a, 4 pts
Olympics 2006: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 13 gp, 6 g, 6 a, 12 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 30 gp, 12 g, 11 a, 23 pts

 

[Batis]

What's the story/overview on Larry Robinson's career for the national team?

As you can see above Robinsons best-on-best resume is not overly impressive. It is however worth noting that Robinson had a very strong performance at the 1981 WHC where he was voted the top defenceman by both the Directorate and the media (tied for first with Vasiliev in the media vote).

It is perhaps also worth noting that Yzerman had some very impressive international performances at the WHC during his peak years. At the 1989 WHC he made the All-Star team and was the third highest vote-getter among forwards in that media vote (behind Bykov and Makarov) and at the 1990 WHC he led the tournament in scoring and won the Directorate Best Forward award. Additionally he was the second highest vote-getter (behind Khomutov) among forwards in the media vote.

Still I would say that overall the international resumes of Robinson and Yzerman lags behind the ones of the other players in this round who got the chance to play internationally.

 

[DannyGallivan]

As you can see above Robinsons best-on-best resume is not overly impressive. It is however worth noting that Robinson had a very strong performance at the 1981 WHC where he was voted the top defenceman by both the Directorate and the media (tied for first with Vasiliev in the media vote).

It is perhaps also worth noting that Yzerman had some very impressive international performances at the WHC during his peak years. At the 1989 WHC he made the All-Star team and was the third highest vote-getter among forwards in that media vote (behind Bykov and Makarov) and at the 1990 WHC he led the tournament in scoring and won the Directorate Best Forward award. Additionally he was the second highest vote-getter (behind Khomutov) among forwards in the media vote.

Still I would say that overall the international resumes of Robinson and Yzerman lags behind the ones of the other players in this round who got the chance to play internationally.

When judging players with such vast and complete NHL resumes, their international experience is as important as the mixed greens they add to the side of a steak and lobster dinner.

 

[BM67]

Cook seems to be knocked for his playoff scoring, but a little context goes a long way.

Over his 9 year NHL playoff career, the Rangers won 2 Cups, and made the Finals twice more. The Rangers played and won the most games over the period (46 21-17-8). They scored 96 goals with 75 assists awarded (0.78 a/g). 51 of the assists came in the last 4 years. 1st 5 years: 0.51 a/g, last 4 years: 1.04 a/g. Their 2.09 g/gp is second only to Toronto's 2.24. Toronto while scoring 20 fewer goals over the period had more assists awarded (78 on 76 goals).

Bill Cook was 3rd in goals, tied for 3rd in assists, and 2nd in points over the period. The Bread Line scored 42 goals with 31 assists over the period (0.73 a/g).

 

[DannyGallivan]

My early take very late Tuesday evening.
1. Martin Brodeur. Best player in this grouping to me
2. Joe Sakic. 2nd best player
3/4/5/6/7. Bill Cook, Cyclone Taylor, Larry Robinson, Newsy Lalonde, Bryan Trottier ( Have to dig deeper into Cook vs. Taylor vs. Lalonde to get a better grasp of things.
8/9. Mike Bossy, Terry Sawchuk. Maybe within the next 2 rounds
10. Steve Yzerman. Hard pass, 3 round early for me.
11. Ted Lindsay. 3 rounds too early for me.

I have Brodeur ranked very high (first or second... still flip-flopping) in this round as well, although he almost always failed the "eye test" for me. Like Lidstrom, he was the most underwhelming player with the most overwhelming resume. When I watched Hasek or Roy or Tony Esposito or Bernie Parent, I can tell I was watching a goalie steal a game. With Brodeur... well, by the end of the game either no goals got past him or maybe just a couple. However, I couldn't really recall a single save.

Like Lidstrom, though, I can't ignore his numbers. They are too great, and he checks all the boxes for individual achievement. He is the front runner for me for number one in this vote as well, even if I find him a very "meh" player.

 

[Michael Farkas]

That's very strange to hear people thinking Brodeur not passing the eye test...maybe because he's a unique style, but he's one of the best of all time in terms of eye test for me...he was so smart and made the game look so easy...with all the tools that Brodeur offers, you couldn't ask for more from a scouting perspective...

 

[VanIslander]

...Brodeur ... he almost always failed the "eye test" for me. Like Lidstrom, he was the most underwhelming player with the most overwhelming resume. When I watched Hasek or Roy or Tony Esposito or Bernie Parent, I can tell I was watching a goalie steal a game. With Brodeur... well, by the end of the game either no goals got past him or maybe just a couple. However, I couldn't really recall a single save...

Exactly.

Hence, I could easily put an Yzerman, Trottier and Langway ahead of him.

The false idolatry of team accomplishments be damned.

 

[DannyGallivan]

That's very strange to hear people thinking Brodeur not passing the eye test...maybe because he's a unique style, but he's one of the best of all time in terms of eye test for me...he was so smart and made the game look so easy...with all the tools that Brodeur offers, you couldn't ask for more from a scouting perspective...

You must like academic text books and unsalted cauliflower.

The odd thing about Brodeur was that he kept wearing smallish pads (at least the leg pads) despite the trend at the time to go ridiculously large with the padding. Yet, his numbers weren't suffering.

 

[DannyGallivan]

That's very strange to hear people thinking Brodeur not passing the eye test...maybe because he's a unique style, but he's one of the best of all time in terms of eye test for me...he was so smart and made the game look so easy...with all the tools that Brodeur offers, you couldn't ask for more from a scouting perspective...

He's far more spectacular stopping the puck in his Enterprise commercial.

 

[Batis]

When judging players with such vast and complete NHL resumes, their international experience is as important as the mixed greens they add to the side of a steak and lobster dinner.

I have never claimed that the international experience of players who spent their primes in the NHL should be viewed as anything else than a side-dish either. I am just presenting the data so we in the discussion can get a broader view of the achiviements of the players beyond only their NHL achiviements. Additionally I personally consider best-on-best tournaments to be a rather important side-dish considering that the level of competition at the knockout stage of those tournaments in my opinion have been the highest available to players from the 70's and forward. Generally speaking I would say that not even in the Stanley Cup finals the average quality of the players on the two teams measures up to the average quality of the players on the two teams that faces off in the final of a best-on-best tournament. That is not saying that best-on-best tournaments are more important than the Stanley Cup playoffs but in my opinion the level of competition is even higher at least.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't like either of those things haha

Brodeur wasn't generic...he was a Tretiak style hybrid, instead of an Allaire-style robot...

He could skate and play the puck so much better than Roy and Hasek...he was clutch and didn't let bad goals go through him at bad times unlike Hall...he was a monster for years and years and crossed eras unlike Sawchuk and Dryden...great glove, great stick (not just in terms of puckhandling), quick feet, maybe the best rebound control ever, comfortable not giving up his feet and leverage to make saves (so he didn't give up a ton of goals over his shoulder like most modern goalies do today...part of the reason why scoring is up), excellent puck tracker...

In terms of completeness and talent, Brodeur and Plante are a cut above all of the rest...

 

[Michael Farkas]

He's far more spectacular stopping the puck in his Enterprise commercial.

STAR POWER!

 

[ted2019]

How is Bossy better than Yzerman?

And is there that much of a difference between Sakic and Yzerman?

I would rank Sakic higher myself, though... at least without further digging.

Easy, I'm not impressed with Yzerman. Bossy's peak absolutely blows Yzerman's out of the water and he has a Smythe just like Yzerman. To me, it's the Selke voting vs. the post season AS and Yzerman's 1st & 3rd place Selke placings, don't equal Bossy's post season AS resume. I also like Bossy's playoff record over Yzerman's.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You must like academic text books and unsalted cauliflower.

The odd thing about Brodeur was that he kept wearing smallish pads (at least the leg pads) despite the trend at the time to go ridiculously large with the padding. Yet, his numbers weren't suffering.

Not odd at all. Facilitate skating and movement pre trapezoid days.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Easy, I'm not impressed with Yzerman. Bossy's peak absolutely blows Yzerman's out of the water and he has a Smythe just like Yzerman. To me, it's the Selke voting vs. the post season AS and Yzerman's 1st & 3rd place Selke placings, don't equal Bossy's post season AS resume. I also like Bossy's playoff record over Yzerman's.

It's not that I agree with your summation of Yzerman, I just like somebody sticking up for Bossy for a change. I feel he's been given the "high hat" so far.

 

[The Macho King]

It's not that I agree with your summation of Yzerman, I just like somebody sticking up for Bossy for a change. I feel he's been given the "high hat" so far.

I think he fits much better in this vote than last vote.

Also - I'm wondering how far Sawchuk drops here. This is his third vote, right? Has anyone been in four votes yet?

 

[DannyGallivan]

I have never claimed that the international experience of players who spent their primes in the NHL should be viewed as anything else than a side-dish either. I am just presenting the data so we in the discussion can get a broader view of the achiviements of the players beyond only their NHL achiviements. Additionally I personally consider best-on-best tournaments to be a rather important side-dish considering that the level of competition at the knockout stage of those tournaments in my opinion have been the highest available to players from the 70's and forward. Generally speaking I would say that not even in the Stanley Cup finals the average quality of the players on the two teams measures up to the average quality of the players on the two teams that faces off in the final of a best-on-best tournament. That is not saying that best-on-best tournaments are more important than the Stanley Cup playoffs but in my opinion the level of competition is even higher at least.

Until recently, North American teams in "best on best" had a disadvantage in that they were tossed together and expected to play like a team, while the Iron Curtain gang (pre early 90's) were (mostly) solidified units.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I think he fits much better in this vote than last vote.

Also - I'm wondering how far Sawchuk drops here. This is his third vote, right? Has anyone been in four votes yet?

Right now I have Terry at seventh on my list.

It's too bad. I've always been fascinated by him, and I always cheer (even posthumously) for fellow Winnipeggers.