Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 7

[vadim sharifijanov]

there's a lot of arguing about the semantics of what "close" does and does not mean recently

 

[sr edler]

What does "arguably close" mean though?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Except (a) Lemieux never came close to Yzerman's two-way transformation, while Yzerman arguably came close to Lemieux's offensive genius (b) even in the late 80s Yzerman displayed some moments of defensive acumen and (c) both offensive and defensive peaks of Yzerman, even not occurring simultaneously, are higher than the simultaneous offensive / defensive peak of Trottier. Add to that Yzerman's longevity exceeding Lemieux's and Trottier's, and voila.

155 is the 3rd highest offensive output, behind Gretzky and Lemieux. 199 is the 2nd highest offensive output, behind Gretzky. Unlike Bossy, Esposito, Nicholls, and Jagr (people in the ballpark), Yzerman didn't have an all-time talent as his teammate, like Trottier, Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux, respectively.

You're welcome. I'm sure you knew all this without me.

199 - 155 = 44

That isn't close, that's practically the difference between 100% and 75%

Wow congrats to Yzerman, one season he managed to only be 44 points behind Lemieux's career high and then never came close to that total again.

These posts contribute absolutely nothing to the project

 

[Captain Bowie]

155 is the 3rd highest offensive output, behind Gretzky and Lemieux. 199 is the 2nd highest offensive output, behind Gretzky. Unlike Bossy, Esposito, Nicholls, and Jagr (people in the ballpark), Yzerman didn't have an all-time talent as his teammate, like Trottier, Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux, respectively.

You're welcome. I'm sure you knew all this without me.

Lemieux outscord him by 28% in Yzerman's absolute best season. If that is the full extent of the argument that Yzerman's peak offence got close to Lemieux's peak offence, then it's not a very good argument. Or at very least, you didn't argue it very well. I was hoping for a little substance.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Except (a) Lemieux never came close to Yzerman's two-way transformation, while Yzerman arguably came close to Lemieux's offensive genius (b) even in the late 80s Yzerman displayed some moments of defensive acumen and (c) both offensive and defensive peaks of Yzerman, even not occurring simultaneously, are higher than the simultaneous offensive / defensive peak of Trottier. Add to that Yzerman's longevity exceeding Lemieux's and Trottier's, and voila.

But how can you ignore the value of combining both aspects at the same time, rather than achieving them separately? We'd probably be talking about Scott Stevens alongside Larry Robinson here if we didn't acknowledge that Stevens was a non-factor offensively by the time he became the defensive anchor of multiple Cup winner.

 

[seventieslord]

...Didn't Stevens' PP usage actually affect his hockey stats more than a decline in his ability though?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

...Didn't Stevens' PP usage actually affect his hockey stats more than a decline in his ability though?

It looks like it's both - change in usage and decline in ability.

Change in usage is supported by the fact that his powerplay usage percentage plummets after the 1993-94 season.

Change in ability is supported by his huge drop in ES scoring (50 ES points in 1994 - never scored more than half that amount the rest of his career). Still, part of that is likely usage too (change in types of matchups).

Another argument for decrease in ability - Stevens got a lot of PP TOI in 2001, probably because Niedermayer missed 25 games. He only scored 10 powerplay points in 221 minutes - 2.71 PP points per 60 minutes, a horrendously bad result. To put that into context, top PP defenseman that year (Lidstrom, Leetch, MacInnis, Bourque, Gonchar and Blake) were, on average, almost twice as productive. He was 36 by then and nobody's expecting to him to be as productive as, say, a 31 year old Lidstrom, but it still highlights a decline in ability with the man advantage.

But we'll look at this more in several more weeks, when Stevens is eligible.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Q: During the span 1926-27 to 1936-37 (Cook's NHL-active career, a period of time that encompasses ages 30-40 [or maybe ages 31-41!]), how many Wingers scored more even-strength NHL Playoff Points than Bill Cook?

A: Zero.

How 'average' of him.

 

[MXD]

Q: During the period 1926-27 to 1936-37 (Cook's NHL-active career, a period of time that encompasses ages 30-40 [or maybe ages 31-41!]), how many Wingers scored more even-strength NHL Playoff Points than Bill Cook?

A: Zero.

How 'average' of him.

We have the numbers prior to 33-34?
(And besides, the ES part it's a bit of a red herring, considering Bill Cook almost certainly had heavy PP duties...)

 

[blogofmike]

Q: During the span 1926-27 to 1936-37 (Cook's NHL-active career, a period of time that encompasses ages 30-40 [or maybe ages 31-41!]), how many Wingers scored more even-strength NHL Playoff Points than Bill Cook?

A: Zero.

How 'average' of him.

I'm not sure that's a useful measure, but I don't believe NHL.com has those numbers. Even if they could be manually calculated, Cook might not be the highest scoring Rangers Right Winger at ES. Second line Rangers winger Cecil Dillon could have outscored Cook at ES in the time frame you selected. Dillon's 21 points in 34 games (0 PP points on 7 post 34 points), is close enough to Cook's 24 in 46 (1 PP point on 3 post 34 points, + at least the 5-on-3 goal to beat the Leafs) that it is possible. But again, not sure of the usefulness of this.

 

[quoipourquoi]

28 ballots in so far. 39 minutes left and I need some tiebreakers.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You'll get my vote. Just figuring out the order of my top 2...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Just put mine in...

I need to get away from this Sakic/Yzerman/Trottier/Bossy/Cook contingent...I don't understand it and it makes me upset...yet none of them are my #1 this round, so I'm not helping my cause at all...

I came really close to putting Bossy over Trottier on this ballot, even though I had the opposite last ballot...I don't know how much longer I can keep whining...

 

[Sentinel]

But how can you ignore the value of combining both aspects at the same time, rather than achieving them separately? We'd probably be talking about Scott Stevens alongside Larry Robinson here if we didn't acknowledge that Stevens was a non-factor offensively by the time he became the defensive anchor of multiple Cup winner.

Yzerman was never a defensive liability the way Stevens was in Washington. Both of Yzerman's highs, separate as they may be, were higher than Trottier's.

 

[Sentinel]

199 - 155 = 44

That isn't close, that's practically the difference between 100% and 75%

Wow congrats to Yzerman, one season he managed to only be 44 points behind Lemieux's career high and then never came close to that total again.

These posts contribute absolutely nothing to the project

I don't see how your post contributes more than mine. In fact, it probably contributes 25% less than mine