Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 7

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Dec 10, 2018.

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  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Procedure
    • You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
    • The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
    • A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

    Eligible Voters
    • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
    • Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

    Guidelines
    • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
    • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
    • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
    • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

    House Rules
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

    The actual voting period will open up on Friday, December 14th at midnight and continue through Sunday, December 16th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, December 17th.


    Vote 7 Candidates
    • Bill Cook
    • Bryan Trottier
    • Cyclone Taylor
    • Joe Sakic
    • Larry Robinson
    • Martin Brodeur
    • Mike Bossy
    • Newsy Lalonde
    • Steve Yzerman
    • Ted Lindsay
    • Terry Sawchuk
     
  2. The Macho King World Champion*

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    Ah some great additions here. Cook and Robinson look like very solid additions who may go in my top 5 this round. Lalonde is interesting. Seems early for Lindsay?
     
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  3. MXD Original #4

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    Hot Take : Ted Lindsay is at worse 8th in this group.
     
  4. BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    Yzerman is unsurprising but disappointing so early.

    Lindsay caught me off-guard, I don't like it much.

    Robinson, Cook, Lalonde worthy and expected additions.

    Wish Henri Richard and Frank Boucher would have popped up instead of the first two.
     
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  5. The Macho King World Champion*

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    It's really hard to separate Sakic and Yzerman in my head. Like - I realize there's separation. Intellectually it's clearly separation. But at the end of the day, in my head it's still Sakic/Yzerman Yzerman/Sakic.
     
  6. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Good to see Bill Cook this time. I firmly believe he's in the same tier as Lafleur and Makarov among wingers. His exclusion from the list has not yet become an injustice, but it will be if he doesn't get in this round. I can only assume that some voters didn't realize that Cook didn't join the NHL until the age of 30, and that he had significant accomplishments in pre-consolidation hockey before then.

    Summary of Bill Cook - a power forward and respected team captain who was the best scorer in all of hockey 3-4 times (see subsequent post) - the clear cut best winger to ever play before Maurice Richard came around.

    Brodeur (best goalie left) and Sakic (best center left) are also virtual locks for me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  7. MXD Original #4

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    I'm correcting because I had missed Yzerman when counting players : Lindsay is at worse 7th in this group.
     
  8. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    I don't think it's that hot a take. Very well rounded player; I still prefer him to Bossy (by a small margin).
     
  9. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    I actually like Yzerman over all of Bossy, Lindsay, Robinson, and Trottier, but I expect I’ll be in the minority there.
     
  10. wetcoast Registered User

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    I had to read that 3 times and look where the much better missing players are?

    Not surprised on the additions of Cook and Robinson though.
     
  11. The Macho King World Champion*

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    I think there's a tendency (whether right or wrong) to kind of... fetishize Yzerman's second act as the driving factor behind Detroit's success, which comes at the cost of ignoring the fact that the Red Wings were disgustingly stacked in every position except for the net.
     
  12. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    Cook! Big Bird! Newsy!

    Happy with the new group. Had Lindsay and Stevie due up soon as well.
     
  13. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    REPOST FROM HOH TOP WINGERS PROJECT

    Bill Cook regular season stats

    Should we take his age 24 and 25 years in the amateur NHML and NOHA seriously? I'm guessing we shouldn't because his first professional season in the WCHL wasn't all that impressive.

    WCHL career (ages 26-29)

    1923 (age 26): 8th in WCHL scoring when probably about 1/4 of the overall North American talent was in the WCHL. Good, not great. This was Bill Cook's first professional season.

    1924 (age 27): led the WCHL in goals, assists, and points. The WCHL had surpassed the PCHA by this point - the two leagues played an interlocking schedule and Cook led the combined leagues in scoring. The NHL still had about half the talent, however (maybe slightly less). Cook led his league in scoring 40-34 (by 18%), the widest margin of any of the leaders. A decent chance of being the Art Ross winner in a consolidated league.

    1925 (age 28): Missed 3 games and finished 1 point behind the two players who tied for the scoring championship. 3rd in points and goals, 5th in assists.

    1926 (age 29): led the WCHL (now called WHL) in points and goals by very large margins (6th in assists). The WHL was probably slightly better than the NHL at this point, and nobody was an outlier scorer in the NHL. More likely than not, the Art Ross winner in a consolidated league. Scroll a few posts down for details.

    After 1926, the WHL folded and the best players joined the NHL. Led by Bill Cook former WHL players were all over the NHL scoring boards. 3 of the top 4, 6 of the top 10, and 11 of the top 20 NHL scorers in 1927 had spent the previous year in the WHL.

    Overall Points: 8th (1923), 1st (1924), 3rd (1925), 1st (1926)
    Overall Goals: 1st (1924), 3rd (1925), 1st (1926)
    Overall Assists: 1st (1924), 5th (1925), 6th (1926)

    NHL career(ages 30-40)

    Points: 1st (1927), 10th (1928), 7th (1929), 4th (1930), 4th (1931), 4th (1932), 1st (1933)

    Goals: 1st (1927), 10th (1928), 6th (1929), 6th (1930), 2nd (1931), 1st (1932), 1st (1933), 5th (1935)

    Assists: 8th (1929), 3rd (1930), 6th (1933)

    ________________________________

    There you have it - Bill Cook had an 11-year prime (1924-25 to 1934-35), during which he was the best scorer in professional hockey in 1926, 1927, 1933, and maybe 1924.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  14. The Macho King World Champion*

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    Fun fact - Cook held the record as oldest Art Ross winner until Marty St. Louis won his second. Which I'm sure all of you already know but still - I like casually dropping the fact that MSL was f***ing awesome into discussion.
     
  15. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    REPOST FROM HOH TOP WINGERS PROJECT

    Bill Cook - Skill Set and Anecdotes


    Many of these quotes were collected from other posters on hfboards (BM67, Dreakmur, Nalyd Psycho)

    Cook was a power forward, captain of 2 Cup winners, and should probably be credited with the equivalent of 3-4 Art Rosses.

    General quotes on skill set

    Lester Patrick on Bill Cook's Leadership

    Legendary coach Lester Patrick, while still with the Rangers, was asked his philosophy "on the handling of hockey games and hockey players." He was not asked about Bill Cook, but immediately brought him up.

    The Patrick's, Hockey's Royal Family, pg 180-181

    Toughness and Physical Play

    Note that Primeau played with Charlie Conacher, so this wasn't an attempt to compare the two.

    The Milwaukee Journal - Google News Archive Search

    Newsy Lalonde selected Bill Cook as one of two RWs on his "All-Time Meanest-Toughest Team:"

    Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

    In 1958, the six NHL general managers "the six NHL general managers were asked to name the toughest player they ever saw and the toughest men playing at that time..." One of them named Bill Cook as the toughest he ever saw. Source = Blood on Ice by Ira Gitler

    Cook was known for having an amazing backhand shot (in addition to his forehand shot)

    I'm providing the above quote not for Boucher's ridiculously biased assessment of his former linemate's place on an all-time list, but for the description of the skill set.

    All-Time Teams

     
  16. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Bill Cook in 1925-26

    1925-26 WCHL Top scorers

    1. Bill Cook 44
    2. Dick Irvin 36
    3. Corb Denneny 34
    4. Art Gagne RW 33
    5. George Hay 31
    6. Duke Keats 29
    7. Harry Oliver 25
    8. Frank Fredrickson 24
    9. Frank Boucher 22

    1925-26 NHL Top scorers

    1. Nels Stewart*-MTM 42
    2. Cy Denneny*-OTS 36
    3. Carson Cooper-BOS 31
    Jimmy Herbert-BOS 31
    5. Howie Morenz*-MTL 26
    Aurele Joliat*-MTL 26
    Jack Adams*-TRS 26
    8. Frank Nighbor*-OTS 25
    Hooley Smith*-OTS 25
    Billy Burch*-NYA 25

    Bill Cook won the WHL scoring race by a slightly larger margin than Nels Stewart won the NHL scoring race, and the WHL was likely a slightly stronger league.

    Either way, Cook and Stewart were well ahead of the pack offensively that season.

    ________________

    Quick timeline of the fall of the western leagues, or why we should take the 1924-25 and 1925-26 WCHL seriously

    1924-25: The PCHA went bankrupt and disbanded before the season started, and the WCHL absorbed their best players. The WCHL champion would go on to defeat the NHL champion in the Stanley Cup finals

    1925-26: The NHL champion defeats the WCHL (now called WHL) champion in the Stanley Cup finals.

    1926-27: The W(C)HL went bankrupt and disbanded before the season started, and the NHL absorbed their best players. For the first time in history, the NHL has all the best players in the world. 3 of the top 4, 6 of the top 10, and 11 of the top 20 NHL scorers this season had spent the previous year in the W(C)HL. The top 4 in Hart voting had all spent the previous year in the W(C)HL.

    The WCHL was quite clearly the NHL's equal in 1924-25 and 1925-26, and more likely than not, just a little bit better, as shown by the results after the leagues consolidated.

    (Young Eddie Shore is another player who was in the WCHL before it was absorbed by the NHL).
     
  17. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Hart trophy voting results (1945-2018, minimum 5% vote share)

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
    Martin Brodeur3227
    Bryan Trottier1214
    Joe Sakic1124
    Terry Sawchuk134
    Ted Lindsay1113
    Mike Bossy112
    Steve Yzerman112
    Larry Robinson11

    VsX results (1927-2018)

    Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 7YR 10YR
    Ted Lindsay 116.4 113.0 110.4 101.6 100.0 100.0 89.4 86.7 70.4 69.9 104.4 95.8
    Joe Sakic 122.9 100.0 100.0 94.8 89.7 88.6 87.8 87.7 86.2 82.1 97.7 94.0
    Mike Bossy 108.6 100.0 97.5 95.2 88.1 87.2 86.7 83.5 77.3 69.4 94.8 89.4
    Bryan Trottier 115.5 112.8 91.7 87.8 87.4 80.6 79.8 76.3 71.8 68.6 93.7 87.2
    Steve Yzerman 111.5 98.4 93.9 92.6 88.8 84.0 83.3 79.2 78.0 77.9 93.2 88.8
    Larry Robinson 81.0 63.0 59.6 58.2 52.6 50.8 50.4 46.3 40.1 37.0 59.4 53.9

    Lindsay looks a lot better than expected here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  18. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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    Marty looks fantastic here.
     
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  19. BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    More like Trottier looks fantastic.
     
  20. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    To add to this, Bill Cook was 2nd in Hart voting twice - both times to a defenseman (Herb Gardiner in 1927, Eddie Shore in 1933). Unfortunately, we don't have any records for anything beyond the top 4-5 in Hart voting for most of the 1930s, so he may (or may not) have had more relatively high finishes.

    And of course, Cook wasn't eligible for the Hart in his WCHL years.
     
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  21. Dennis Bonvie Registered User

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    This could be a big round for the old-timers.
     
  22. BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    The question mark with Bill Cook is his playoff performances.Wish I had the time in the last few weeks to prepare a "every playoff game" mega-post for Lalonde and Cook, but I wasn't able to do it.I might try to do it in-extremis this week, but can't promise anything.
     
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  23. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Well yes, if Cook had a better playoff record, then he would have been ranked over Lafleur on the HOH Wingers list.

    As is, I see Cook's playoffs as similar to Jagr's or Esposito's - pretty good overall, but not as good as you'd ideally want to seen from a guy of that calibre.

    This is what I said about Cook's playoffs in the HOH Wingers project:

    "You need to consider that Cook played during a period when it was incredibly difficult for star players to put up points in the playoffs. Overall scoring plummetted, and scoring of top players dropped even more. Part of this is due to the weird format - generally during this time, the 1st and 2nd seeds played each other in the first round with the winner going to the Stanley Cup finals. The 3rd-6th seeds played a mini-tournament for the other finals spot. Anyway, here are the stats of the superstar calibre players who peaked in the late 20s/early 30s.

    Charlie Conacher = 35 points in 49 playoff games (.71 ppg)
    Frank Boucher = 36 points in 55 playoff games (.65 ppg)
    Howie Morenz = 22 points in 39 playoff games (.56 ppg)
    Bill Cook = 24 points in 46 playoff games (.52 ppg)
    Aurele Joliat = 22 points in 45 playoff games (.49 ppg)
    Busher Jackson = 30 point in 71 playoff games (.42 ppg)
    Nels Stewart = 21 points in 50 playoff games (.42 ppg)
    Hooley Smith = 19 points in 54 playoff games (.35 ppg)

    If Cook's playoff performances were the stuff of legend, I think we're talking about him in the same class as Richard, Hull, and Jagr. But I don't think they were bad either, considering what all the other star players of the era were doing. And remember, Cook brought a lot more to the table than just scoring.

    Hooray for Charlie Conacher though, I guess. "
     
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  24. overpass Registered User

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    To support the idea that Bill Cook was da real MVP in 1926-27:

    Alfred E Schoenfeld in the April 3, 1927 Brooklyn Daily Eagle

    “The above represents the consensus of coaches, referees, and managers of the league, the selections of New York newspaper men, George E. Timpson, Boston Christian Science Monitor, John Scott, Associated and Canadian Press and the writer as to the all-Hockey League team of 1927.

    In arranging the consensus, three points were awarded for a first team selection, two for the second team and one for third. The number of points were doubled if the player was thought to be the most valuable player in the league. "

    First Team
    Hainsworth (Canadiens), Goal
    Clancy (Ottawa), Defense
    Munro (Maroons), Defense
    Frederickson (Boston), Center
    W. Cook (Rangers), Right Wing
    Hay (Chicago), Left Wing

    Second Team
    J.R. Roach (Toronto), Goal
    Johnson (Rangers), Defense
    Gardiner (Canadiens), Defense
    F. Boucher (Ranger), Center
    Morenz (Canadiens), Right Wing
    Joliat (Canadiens), Left Wing

    Third Team
    Worters (Pittsburgh), Goal
    Shore (Boston), Defense
    G. Boucher (Ottawa), Defense
    W. Carson (Toronto), Center
    Reg Smith (Ottawa), Right Wing
    Irvin (Chicago), Left Wing

    Honorable Mentions (in order of voting)
    Goal: Benedict, Chabot
    Defense: Abel, Cleghorn, Hitchman, Conacher
    Center: A.P. Lepine, Burch
    Right Wing: Broadbent, Dye
    Left Wing: Denneny, Kilrea

    Notes on voting:
    • Exact point totals were not published.
    • Art Duncan picked Bill Carson as the most valuable player. All other voters selected Bill Cook.

    Key point — 9 of 10 coaches named Bill Cook as the most valuable player for 1926-27. The Hart winner, Herb Gardiner, was only on their second all-star team.
     
  25. ResilientBeast ATD Draft Czar

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    Taylor has to be ahead of Lalonde and deep down inside think he is top 4 worthy this round.

    Brodeur and Cook are locks for my top 4
     

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