Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 7

[Kyle McMahon]

Yes. This is precisely what I refer to as "peak." With the worst support cast of them all.

If peak refers to just one season, that would be a pretty small slice of the pie. Why should one single season carry such an amount of weight?

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'm struggling to call the shot on Larry Robinson vs. Bryan Trottier, two contemporaries known for their all-around game and for being the 2nd/3rd cog of a dynasty.Robinson has a little more longevity as a top player, but Trottier's prime is a little better (or much better?).In the playoffs, I'd give it to Trottier, but that's debatable.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I'm struggling to call the shot on Larry Robinson vs. Bryan Trottier, two contemporaries known for their all-around game and for being the 2nd/3rd cog of a dynasty.Robinson has a little more longevity as a top player, but Trottier's prime might be a little better.In the playoffs, I'd give it to Trottier, but that's debatable.

Right now, Robinson is in spot two and Trottier is in spot three for me in this round.

 

[Sentinel]

Sentinel is all about Russians and Detroit it seems

The opposite of you, it seems:

9. Terry Sawchuk. Bossy's peak is currently over Sawchuk's
10. Steve Yzerman. Hard pass, 3 round early for me.
11. Ted Lindsay. 3 rounds too early for me.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I wish that I was able to post more in this round, but illness has felled our family this week. As Thursday afternoon comes towards a close, this is my current order.
1. Martin Brodeur. Best player in this grouping to me
2. Cyclone Taylor. Looked at some bios and information made me realize that Taylor should go before Sakic
3. Joe Sakic. Could change and he could drop some.
4.Bill Cook. Still seeing and going over information. For now, he's my next winger.
5. Larry Robinson. Trying to wonder if Robinson was protected at all by Bowman or if he was a main cog in the dynasty.
6. Newsy Lalonde. I have him over Trottier and I really don't see that changing.
7. Bryan Trottier. He will go in before Bossy, but it won't be this round
8/9. Mike Bossy, Terry Sawchuk. Bossy's peak is currently over Sawchuk's
10. Steve Yzerman. Hard pass, 3 round early for me.
11. Ted Lindsay. 3 rounds too early for me.

Robinson was a main cog getting all the tough defensive assignments especially in the playoffs.

 

[MXD]

The opposite of you, it seems:

What's the problem with having these three specific players last?

 

[Theokritos]

IMO Steve Yzerman's relative lack of international resume shouldn't be given too much weight. Not making the cut for 1987 Team Canada at the age 22 is probably a slight against him in comparison with Trottier and Bossy (both would certainly have been locks at the respective age), even though not in comparison with Sakic (who was cut himself at 22). On the flipside, Trottier and Bossy were done as international performers after the age of 27. Meanwhile Yzerman was a good contributor internationally until 36.

What hurts Yzerman most is that he was controversly left out again in 1991. At that point he was Canada's third or fourth best forward (certainly behind Gretzky and Lemieux, maybe also behind Messier) according to everyone not named Mike Keenan. It's safe to say that no other coach would have benched a 26-years-old Steve Yzerman in the first two games and then cut him from the roster. Yzerman felt humiliated enough to vow to himself he would never line up for Team Canada again.

In 1996 he changed his mind when the Canada Cup was revived as "World Cup of Hockey", but the fact remains that Yzerman didn't have the opportunity to play in an international best-on-best competition while he was 23 to 30 years of age.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm struggling to call the shot on Larry Robinson vs. Bryan Trottier, two contemporaries known for their all-around game and for being the 2nd/3rd cog of a dynasty.Robinson has a little more longevity as a top player, but Trottier's prime is a little better (or much better?).In the playoffs, I'd give it to Trottier, but that's debatable.

Not the be-all-end-all, but I think Trottier was closer to being top dog on his dynasty than Robinson was. Edit: Though the counterargument to that is that Lafleur being that great for his brief peak doesn't say that much about Robinson.

I was actually thinking Sawchuk vs Trottier could be an interesting comparison.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I wish that I was able to post more in this round, but illness has felled our family this week. As Thursday afternoon comes towards a close, this is my current order.
1. Martin Brodeur. Best player in this grouping to me
2. Cyclone Taylor. Looked at some bios and information made me realize that Taylor should go before Sakic
3. Joe Sakic. Could change and he could drop some.
4.Bill Cook. Still seeing and going over information. For now, he's my next winger.
5. Larry Robinson. Trying to wonder if Robinson was protected at all by Bowman or if he was a main cog in the dynasty.
6. Newsy Lalonde. I have him over Trottier and I really don't see that changing.
7. Bryan Trottier. He will go in before Bossy, but it won't be this round
8/9. Mike Bossy, Terry Sawchuk. Bossy's peak is currently over Sawchuk's
10. Steve Yzerman. Hard pass, 3 round early for me.
11. Ted Lindsay. 3 rounds too early for me.

I am RIGHT there with you. I have the exact same order at the moment until Lalonde, I have him right below the Trottier/Bossy/Sawchuk clump. Yzerman and Lindsay flipped as well.

 

[MXD]

I was actually thinking Sawchuk vs Trottier could be an interesting comparison.

Humm... To me, Trottier seems to have been better and more important to his team for longer, all the while always delivering. In other words, the Islanders never won despite Bryan Trottier. Maybe Sawchuk adds a bit more in terms of non-prime longevity, but Trottier doesn't look this bad compared to players his age. No one tended to last long then. Meanwhile, from age 32 onwards, Terry Sawchuk was only the 3rd best netminder born in 1929... (And he's not even the best if we rate their achievements from 0-to-31 years old).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm not going to fight too hard for Ted Lindsay this round, but something to keep in mind - Red Kelly and Gordie Howe were both younger than Lindsay, and they didn't really breakout until 1949-50. Before that season, Kelly had never broken 20 points, and Howe had never been a top 10 scorer.

Ted Lindsay in 1947-48: 1st in goals, 9th in points
Ted Lindsay in 1948-49: 2nd in goals, 4th in assists, 3rd in points

While I have no doubt that Lindsay's stats were inflated at least somewhat in the 1950s, he was already trending upwards before Kelly and Howe were superstars.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Not the be-all-end-all, but I think Trottier was closer to being top dog on his dynasty than Robinson was. Edit: Though the counterargument to that is that Lafleur being that great for his brief peak doesn't say that much about Robinson.

I was actually thinking Sawchuk vs Trottier could be an interesting comparison.

True.

Robinson also had the 86 and 89 runs, and I guess the 73 run, and then Trottier had the Pittsburgh cups.Robinson brings more value there.Reduces the gap.

The more I think about them the closer they look overall.

 

[VanIslander]

Just look at Terrible Ted's awesome championship scoring record.

Without Howe or Sawchuk and not much from young Kelly yet, Lindsay (with Abel) was one point short of the scoring lead in his 1st Stanley Cup victory.

Lindsay led in goals and points in the 2nd Stanley Cup.

He was one point shy of the scoring lead in the 3rd and 4th Stanley Cups, both of them as the Wings captain.

Plus he had a BOATLOAD of intangibles. Much is made of his toughness and commitment to win at all cost. But he was also praised, "No one skated faster" and if you look at clips of him, his skating and stickhandling are as impressive as his checking and fighting.

The ONLY star of each championship of that dynasty was Terrible Ted.

 

[VanIslander]

One reason Brodeur's role on a winning franchise doesn't fly far this round:

He ain't the championship lynchpin of a Sakic, Lindsay, Trottier or Robinson.

It's an embarrassment of riches in terms of championship performers this round. Sentinel must be pleased as punch!

 

[BenchBrawl]

One reason Brodeur's role on a winning franchise doesn't fly far this round:

He ain't the championship lynchpin of a Sakic, Lindsay, Trottier or Robinson.

It's an embarrassment of riches in terms of championship performers this round. Sentinel must be pleased as punch!

How is Brodeur not a championship lynchpin for New Jersey???

 

[VanIslander]

Difference of degree, not kind.

At least.

That was my point.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Difference of degree, not kind.

At least.

That was my point.

I'm not convinced Brodeur is different in degree than any of those guys.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Brodeur is good.

 

[VanIslander]

Why is this HOH project infected with statements of how one will be voting?

In previous HOH projects, it was actively discouraged.

Groupthink adds nothing to the process.

 

[MXD]

One reason Brodeur's role on a winning franchise doesn't fly far this round:

He ain't the championship lynchpin of a Sakic, Lindsay, Trottier or Robinson.

It's an embarrassment of riches in terms of championship performers this round. Sentinel must be pleased as punch!

... This is akin to begging us to not bother about your posts.

 

[MXD]

... And Brodeur is, indeed, a really easy 1st this round.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I do think that posts that flat out rank players without giving any reasoning are unproductive. But I'm not going to fight over it.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I'll refrain in the future.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Re: Brodeur's importance to the Devils.

I do think that Scott Stevens was easily the biggest difference maker in the playoffs for the team from 1995-2003. (I was really surprised Brodeur and Stevens finished so close to each other in the playoffs project. That was... Just wrong).

But Brodeur was the rock the team was built around. Voted by his teammates the Team MVP of the regular season the large majority of seasons they played together.

If Stevens was the gamebreaker who put them over the top, Brodeur was the rock who made them always relevant.

 

[VanIslander]

... This is akin to begging us to not bother about your posts.

Of all the insults you've thrown at me this project, this one I beg you to take on board and follow as advice.