Exactly. Does one value a second half career as a second line centre (at best) over four additional 1st team AS nominations? Tough sell. It’s great that Kelly could transition into a centre but he was never an all-star as one, let alone the top centre on his team.
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 4
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Exactly. Does one value a second half career as a second line centre (at best) over four additional 1st team AS nominations? Tough sell. It’s great that Kelly could transition into a centre but he was never an all-star as one, let alone the top centre on his team.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Yeah, I'm in the boat that has Ovechkin over Jagr.
Ovechkin was battling a top 12 (or so) player all time (Crosby) of all time from day 1 for league supremacy. Complete overlap of their careers. Gretzky was well past his prime once Jagr got out of the shadow of Mario. People talk about Lafleur's short peak, but outside of 95-01 Jagr really only has 1 truly impressive season all things considered. And the difference is somebody like Lafleur routinely stepped up in the postseason but I'm sure that will be countered with Lafleur played on one of the greatest dynasties ever for starters.
Ovechkin can hang his hat on being one of the greatest goal scorers in the history of the hockey. For all this warts Ovechkin's hardware is plenty impressive at this stage and the warts he has, Jagr has as well, if not more so.
Ovechkin was battling a top 12 (or so) player all time (Crosby) of all time from day 1 for league supremacy. Complete overlap of their careers. Gretzky was well past his prime once Jagr got out of the shadow of Mario. People talk about Lafleur's short peak, but outside of 95-01 Jagr really only has 1 truly impressive season all things considered. And the difference is somebody like Lafleur routinely stepped up in the postseason but I'm sure that will be countered with Lafleur played on one of the greatest dynasties ever for starters.
Ovechkin can hang his hat on being one of the greatest goal scorers in the history of the hockey. For all this warts Ovechkin's hardware is plenty impressive at this stage and the warts he has, Jagr has as well, if not more so.
The Macho King
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I mean - I've already acknowledged that Ovi has a fairly abnormally long prime. That's a point in his favor.
His peak still is well below pretty much every other forward (Messier excepted? Maybe Nighbor?) we're discussing right now. Ovi is a good player. He should not be voted on in this round - it's way too early for a guy who is a playoff disappointment and international embarrassment.
The Macho King
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It was hyperbole - I was getting peeved because I feel like I'm being asked to defend Espo's defense when that's a task I never signed up for.
DannyGallivan
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MXD
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It's relevant, in that the Rangers started to give more goals after trading FOR Esposito, and that Esposito did get a lot of icetime.
(switching Park for Vadnais was ridiculous, I know)
My point is -- Esposito kindof NEEDS these years, considering there are suspicions about his successes as a Bruin.
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I don't think it's quite the same as putting Potvin over Lidström due to physicality. That argument is: Both were Norris-calibre defencemen, but Potvin had an additional weapon that Lidström didn't have. Your counter would be: Lidström didn't need that particular weapon, he made up for it with other strengths and was just as good as Potvin (or better) without the physicality.
Kelly vs Lidström is different. No, Kelly's versatility doesn't outdo Lidström's value as a defenceman (while Potvin's physicality does – at least in the eyes of those who prefer Potvin over Lidström). Instead the argument would be that his versatility outdoes Lidström's value as a player. You've got a Norris-calibre defenceman who could also be used as a center with success and a Norris-calibre defenceman who couldn't.
Mind you, I'm not calling for Kelly > Lidström here. Or the reverse. I just want to point out that there is a difference between the argument brought up for Kelly and the argument brought up for Potvin.
The Macho King
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Does he? He's second in scoring in '68 with 84 points, 3 behind Mikita for the league lead (Orr has 31). He wins the Art Ross and smashes the points record in '69 with 126 points and wins the Hart with Orr scoring 64 points (outscoring 2nd place Bobby Hull by 19 points, and his closest teammate by 36 points).
I generally don't think of a player that outscores his teammate by 2 to 1 as a "product" of that player. Orr and Espo was a symbiotic relationship, not parasitic. Esposito had established himself as a superstar on his own.
Moreover - traded from the Bruins, a Stanley Cup contender, to the Rangers - kind of a middle of the pack/bad team - at 33 and seeing a corresponding decline in production doesn't seem to be a huge knock on a player to me.
The hockey news had Esposito over Mikita when they made their list in 1998. His hart trophy voting is also better. I think this board is going to rank Mikita higher, but I honestly don't see him scoring 145 or 152 points if he was playing with peak orr instead of espo. Espo gets devalued too much on this board. His peak seasons of 1969, 1971 and 1974 are better than Mikitas. I would also take Phil over Stan in the playoffs.
ted2019
History of Hockey
ted2019
History of Hockey
Nick Hansen
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I think Mikita will end up close to the bottom again which feels a little odd considering his individual accolades. Beyond the trophies, the guy was top 4 in pts nine times.
Bold #1 - Can't you say the same about Ovechkin except instead of a seven year peak, it's a three year peak?
Bold #2 - Jagr was really good in the '92 Cup but that usually is countered with him being 4th on his team in scoring. What's the difference? (in terms of comparing Jagr's best Cup run to OV's best Cup run)
Jagr was battling Lemieux (probably lost a ross + hart to him in 96) whose a top 4 player
Jagr was battling Hasek (lost 1 hart to him)
He also beat for various trophies peaking Lindros, Hasek, Sakic, Forsberg in his career.
Ovechkin did face Crosby from day 1 - but strength of competition, Jagr wins.
You mention Lafleur's short peak. No Lafleur had a pretty long peak (6 seasons), but he had a short prime (6 seasons? Maybe you add a couple). Jagr had a pretty long peak and a very long prime.
Daver did a breakdown of relevant seasons among the 4 offensive forwards in this group Here
I don't necessarily with his placement of seasons per tier (honestly haven't had time to look at it in-depth yet)- but it's a good representation at the very least of #seasons worth counting:
Lafleur - 7
Esposito - 9
Jagr - 11
Ovechkin - 11
Jagr is definitely ahead of Lafleur.
Goal-scoring is nice but we shouldn't penalize Jagr for having a more well balanced offense. Overall offense Jagr is ahead of Ovi.
I'm sure you can get to Lafleur > Jagr is you value playoffs VERY, VERY high. And if so that's fine. But if not - i don't see it.
DannyGallivan
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Right now I have Stan tentatively in the middle of the pack, between Kelly and Potvin. However, there are a lot more discussions to take place.
The Macho King
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Sure, why not? Short list of best defensive forwards of all-time. Key cog to a dynasty. Decent longevity (especially for the era). Won the first Hart trophy (and was likely the best player in the world pre-consolidation to boot).
There are questions. Offensive production dropped a bit during the dynasty years, but despite that he still seems to have been relied on defensively and still excelled in that role. My initial feeling (preferring generally two-way players to one-way players) is he's going to be on my top 5 this round by a pretty decent margin.
Second fiddle on a good team, disappointing in the playoffs, undisciplined play, not a two-way player (until late in his career).
The Macho King
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This has to be the fifth time you've said this wrongly. Lafleur has a higher peak, better playoffs, and daver is overinclusive on "important" Jagr seasons while underinclusive for Lafleur. It's 7-10 at worse, probably closer to 8 and 9 impact seasons respectively (which makes the longevity argument bunk).
DannyGallivan
Your world frightens and confuses me
Quick case for Guy Damien Lafleur as the number one contender in this round of voting.
Regular season
- Six times over 100 points
- Five times over 125 points
- Six straight 50-plus goal seasons (first time this ever happened)
- One 60 goal season
- 6 first team all stars
- 2 Hart (4 other Top 4 Hart voting)
- 3 Art Ross
- 3 Pearson (Lindsay)
- 13 straight 20-plus goal seasons (lowest was 21 once, second lowest was 27)
- Six times 65 assists or more
- Six straight top 4 points
- 1st in goals once, 2nd in goals three times, 3rd once
- 1 in assists once, 2nd (twice) 3rd (twice) 5th (once)
- Cool hair blowing behind him as he skated thing (unsure about relevancy)
- Conn Smythe
- 2 times leading scorer in playoffs 2 times second leading scorer 1 time third leading scorer
- 2 times most goals, once second most goals, twice third most goals
- 128 games 58 goals 76 assists 134 points
- Five Stanley Cups
- Best player on best team in history (arguably)... '77 Montreal Canadiens
- Best player on four consecutive Stanley Cup Champs.
ted2019
History of Hockey
Early on I have these thoughts:
Kelly as a definite. Him being at the top end in the league at 2 very important positions is the biggest key for me.
Nighbor looks like a great contender to my top 4. Love the 2 way play over a one dimensional player any day of the week.
Plante, whether he was the 1st or 3rd most important player of those Habs teams means that he will make it for me in this round.
Potvin is someone I need to still think about.
Lidstrom is almost tied to Potvin's hip at this point for me.
Lafleur/Ovechkin/Jagr to me, are a round too early still. Lafleur could make my top 5 possibly.
Any center not named Nighbor will have to wait. See them on the flip side.
My biggest look will be between Potvin/Lidstrom.
Kelly as a definite. Him being at the top end in the league at 2 very important positions is the biggest key for me.
Nighbor looks like a great contender to my top 4. Love the 2 way play over a one dimensional player any day of the week.
Plante, whether he was the 1st or 3rd most important player of those Habs teams means that he will make it for me in this round.
Potvin is someone I need to still think about.
Lidstrom is almost tied to Potvin's hip at this point for me.
Lafleur/Ovechkin/Jagr to me, are a round too early still. Lafleur could make my top 5 possibly.
Any center not named Nighbor will have to wait. See them on the flip side.
My biggest look will be between Potvin/Lidstrom.
it bears mentioning that it was phil's dismal performances in the 66 and 67 playoffs with chicago (2 pts in 12 games combined), in which the black hawks were serious contenders (favourites in 67) and lost in the 1st round both times, that led to him being blamed for chicago's perennial playoff failures and traded to boston. obviously his peak playoff play was all-time great but it's not a perfect resume—71 also sticks out as an underperformance relative to his regular season. maybe just bad luck to have been stuck on two shoulda-been dynasties...
DannyGallivan
Your world frightens and confuses me
In '71 he had 10 points in seven games. Not awful by any extent. That was the Year of Dryden. Also, scapegoating Espo for what was essentially Hull and Mikita's team isn't accurate.
DannyGallivan
Your world frightens and confuses me
And yet just as many Cups as Mario and Jagr, more than Ovechkin, Bobby Hull and Stan Mikita.
TSN also recently made their own list of the 25 greatest players of all time, once again Espo getting ranked above Mikita. The media seems to think he's better.
DannyGallivan
Your world frightens and confuses me
How does he have a higher peak? Assuming you are referring to their best regular season.
