Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

[bobholly39]

Hasek's 6 seasons weren't "great" - they are up there with the peak stretch of the Big 4. What knocks him out of contention is post-peak was pretty mediocre, and he is relatively disappointing in the playoffs (with the aforementioned "quitting" in two of his postseasons).

I don't think Hasek v. Crosby is anywhere close. It's Hasek by a good amount. Crosby isn't at Roy-levels of playoff performance, so I don't see nearly enough there to make up the large gap in their regular seasons.

Crosby has a better regular season resume than Roy but a worst playoff resume. The gap with playoffs between Hasek and Crosby isn't as big as Roy and Hasek - but Crosby is better in the regular season than Roy, so it goes both ways.

How is Hasek's peak close to the big 4? Can you give examples/arguments? I don't see it. It's a great peak - but Crosby is pretty strong himself in that metric. Also - not all of Hasek's 6 seasons are equal. He has 2-3 that are above the others.

Crosby's ppg dominance over peers in his prime is big 4 territory - higher than Jagr and Howe, for starters, through his first 14 years. This is pretty significant too.

 

[MXD]

Opinions are like ********, everyone has one.

How about EVIDENCE rather than assumptions?

Let's get back to trying to convince...

Such as...

I wonder how many of the 6 guys who ranked Roy first also were among the 7 who ranked Hasek last.

I had them back to back and didn't hear 'gap' arguments. So much discussion made it apparent how competitive the two were when placed side by side.

Hasek would have been inducted if the 7 who ranked him last just put him in the middle of the pack, not even anywhere near the top.

Let's not list nationality and birthplace for our HOH List.

9 CANADA
5 QUEBEC

Wave the flag!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ugh.

How about instead: career start year - end year, height and weight

"Like" this suggestion. Let's get it done.

Don't worry. Early NHL era representation is coming soon!

A lot of Montreal Canadiens fans hereabouts. They'll put Morenz first (or second behind Plante) next round.

No Habs this century though. Lafleur will be their next target.

(Jaded and still confused at the 7 last place votes for Hasek yet Roy so much higher. Hope prejudice doesn't explain the gap. Ugh.)

I didn't see why Morenz received so many votes? Where were the convincing arguments?

Back in round one there was discussion of Morenz as overrated, as underwhelming when you look at his production, at the 'star power' factor rather than performances, weak playoffs, the died-so-honor-the-dead dimension, the early hero of Montreal, etc.

That's damning evidence of your close-mindedness, if anything.

 

[canucks4ever]

This is an all time hockey ranking, not an NHL career ranking. Hasek's international career in the 1980's should be factored into his longevity. He played long enough and is in my opinion superior to Roy "in a vacuum". Since Crosby and Ovechkin are available for voting, I am curious to see when Malkin is available. He has already surpassed Forsberg in my opinion, and he is well on his way to passing Yzerman if he has another hart trophy caliber season. I view him as a superior talent to Joe Sakic too, despite Sakic having a massive advantage in regular season longevity.

Jagr and Hasek are criticized for their lack of team success, yet they were able to win a gold medal together, beating out teams with far superior talent. It is interesting where they will be voted in.

 

[Theokritos]

If true (and I'd want more details)

I see what I can find.

it doesn't make Jagr's 5th place scoring finish in 01-02 less empty.

Oh sure. But your headliner was: What happened when Jágr and Ovechkin were asked to play defensive hockey. You rightfully pointed out an instance of Jágr not buying in defensively - in contrast to Ovechkin who bought in, albeit to little success. If, however, it is true that Jágr bought in defensively with the Czech team with the result they won an international best-on-best tournament, then the picture changes a bit.

Of course, that doesn't turn Jágr into a noted two-way player, but we're comparing him with Ovechkin here, so...

 

[MXD]

This is an all time hockey ranking, not an NHL career ranking. Hasek's international career in the 1980's should be factored into his longevity. He played long enough and is in my opinion superior to Roy "in a vacuum". Since Crosby and Ovechkin are available for voting, I am curious to see when Malkin is available. He has already surpassed Forsberg in my opinion, and he is well on his way to passing Yzerman if he has another hart trophy caliber season. I view him as a superior talent to Joe Sakic too, despite Sakic having a massive advantage in regular season longevity.

Jagr and Hasek are criticized for their lack of team success, yet they were able to win a gold medal together, beating out teams with far superior talent. It is interesting where they will be voted in.

Please provide evidence to the effect that his internationnal career wasn't taken in consideration. Be specific.

 

[daver]

Crosby has a better regular season resume than Roy but a worst playoff resume. The gap with playoffs between Hasek and Crosby isn't as big as Roy and Hasek - but Crosby is better in the regular season than Roy, so it goes both ways.

How is Hasek's peak close to the big 4? Can you give examples/arguments? I don't see it. It's a great peak - but Crosby is pretty strong himself in that metric. Also - not all of Hasek's 6 seasons are equal. He has 2-3 that are above the others.

Crosby's ppg dominance over peers in his prime is big 4 territory - higher than Jagr and Howe, for starters, through his first 14 years. This is pretty significant too.

I wouldn't frame it this way. It certainly can be argued that, FWIW, after 14 years he challenges Howe's PPG dominance. Actually it can be argued he challenges Howe's best 14 year stretch of PPG dominance.

 

[canucks4ever]

Please provide evidence to the effect that his internationnal career wasn't taken in consideration. Be specific.

Bob Holly's post at the top of the page, where he compares Crosby to Hasek. He is not factoring in Hasek's pre-nhl career. He is comparing them strictly based on their nhl careers. Hasek clearly has Crosby beat on longevity once his career from the 1980's is taken into consideration. This doesn't matter too much to me, I expect Hasek to get voted in soon.

 

[Theokritos]

If true (and I'd want more details)

Some pieces, though lacking in detail:

1998 Olympics. Jagr bought into playing defense even though he still had his puck possession game and the Czech's were perceived as being offensively challenged.Czech team won the gold medal.

Jagr did tend to concentrate more on defense in the Olympics, perhaps most memorably clearing the puck from the crease in the final minute of the '06 QF game against Slovakia.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Still gotta go back and read from page 2 and on, but have been putting together my margin tables:

Points:

Player	Seasons	Games	Points	PPG	Margin	PPG Margin
Sidney Crosby	06/07-09/10, 13/14-16/17	602	766	1.27
Alex Ovechkin	06/07-09/10, 13/14-16/17	635	723	1.14	105.9%	111.8%
Joe Thornton	06/07-09/10, 13/14-16/17	646	658	1.02	116.4%	124.9%
Evgeni Malkin	06/07-09/10, 13/14-16/17	557	653	1.17	117.3%	108.5%
Ryan Getzlaf	06/07-09/10, 13/14-16/17	611	593	0.97	129.2%	131.1%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Points	PPG	Margin	PPG Margin
Sidney Crosby	06/07-16/17	701	925	1.32
Alex Ovechkin	06/07-16/17	840	929	1.11	99.6%	119.3%
Joe Thornton	06/07-16/17	856	845	0.99	109.5%	133.7%
Evgeni Malkin	06/07-16/17	706	832	1.18	111.2%	112.0%
Henrik Sedin	06/07-16/17	848	799	0.94	115.8%	140.0%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Points	PPG	Margin	PPG Margin
Howie Morenz	24/25-31/32	321	328	1.02
Nels Stewart	25/26-31/32	288	253	0.88	129.6%	116.3%
Aurele Joliat	24/25-31/32	324	248	0.77	132.3%	133.5%
Bill Cook	26/27-31/32	266	232	0.87	141.4%	117.2%
Frank Boucher	26/27-31/32	266	226	0.85	145.1%	120.3%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Points	PPG	Margin	PPG Margin
Alex Ovechkin	05/06-17/18	1003	1122	1.12
Sidney Crosby	05/06-17/18	864	1116	1.29	100.5%	86.6%
Joe Thornton	05/06-17/18	984	1006	1.02	111.5%	109.4%
Evgeni Malkin	06/07-17/18	784	930	1.19	120.6%	94.3%
Henrik Sedin	05/06-17/18	1012	924	0.91	121.4%	122.5%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Points	PPG	Margin	PPG Margin
Jaromir Jagr	93/94-01/02	644	938	1.46
Joe Sakic	93/94-01/02	639	785	1.23	119.5%	118.6%
Teemu Selanne	93/94-01/02	635	723	1.14	129.7%	127.9%
Ron Francis	93/94-01/02	687	715	1.04	131.2%	139.9%
Eric Lindros	93/94-01/02	497	657	1.32	142.8%	110.2%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Points	PPG	Margin	PPG Margin
Mark Messier	85/86-95/96	771	1023	1.33
Steve Yzerman	85/86-95/96	782	1079	1.38	94.8%	96.2%
Dale Hawerchuk	85/86-95/96	818	949	1.16	107.8%	114.4%
Paul Coffey	85/86-95/96	760	946	1.24	108.1%	106.6%
Brett Hull	86/87-95/96	658	833	1.27	122.8%	104.8%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

*Mario and Wayne excluded

Player	Seasons	Games	Points	PPG	Margin	PPG Margin
Stan Mikita	61/62-69/70	635	774	1.22
Bobby Hull	61/62-69/70	603	730	1.21	106.0%	100.7%
Gordie Howe	61/62-69/70	644	708	1.10	109.3%	110.9%
Norm Ullman	61/62-69/70	629	605	0.96	127.9%	126.7%
Alex Delvecchio	61/62-69/70	637	598	0.94	129.4%	129.8%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Points	PPG	Margin	PPG Margin
Ray Bourque	81/82-95/96	1081	1192	1.10
Paul Coffey	81/82-95/96	1080	1378	1.28	86.5%	86.4%
Phil Housley	81/82-95/96	990	950	0.96	125.5%	114.9%
Larry Murphy	81/82-95/96	1154	931	0.81	128.0%	136.7%
Al MacInnis	81/82-95/96	917	911	0.99	130.8%	111.0%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Points	PPG	Margin	PPG Margin
Eddie Shore	26/27-34/35	380	218	0.57
King Clancy	26/27-34/35	403	204	0.51	106.9%	113.3%
Dit Clapper	26/27-34/35	313	196	0.63	111.2%	91.6%
Ebbie Goodfellow	26/27-34/35	273	195	0.71	111.8%	80.3%
Babe Siebert	26/27-34/35	389	188	0.48	116.0%	118.7%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Points	PPG	Margin	PPG Margin
Nicklas Lidstrom	99/00-10/11	882	685	0.78
Sergei Gonchar	99/00-10/11	767	581	0.76	117.9%	102.5%
Brian Rafalski	99/00-10/11	833	515	0.62	133.0%	125.6%
Tomas Kaberle	99/00-10/11	845	507	0.60	135.1%	129.4%
Chris Pronger	99/00-10/11	725	500	0.69	137.0%	112.6%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Points	PPG	Margin	PPG Margin
Denis Potvin	74/75-83/84	702	778	1.11
Larry Robinson	74/75-83/84	737	602	0.82	129.2%	135.7%
Borje Salming	74/75-83/84	724	602	0.83	129.2%	133.3%
Brad Park	74/75-83/84	659	538	0.82	144.6%	135.8%
Reed Larson	75/76-83/84	564	448	0.79	173.7%	139.5%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Goals:

Player	Seasons	Games	Goals	GPG	Margin	GPG Margin
Howie Morenz	23/24-31/32	345	230	0.67
Nels Stewart	25/26-31/32	288	185	0.64	124.3%	103.8%
Aurele Joliat	24/25-31/32	348	163	0.47	141.1%	142.3%
Bill Cook	26/27-31/32	266	158	0.59	145.6%	112.2%
Billy Burch	26/27-31/32	333	125	0.38	184.0%	177.6%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Goals	GPG	Margin	GPG Margin
Alex Ovechkin	09/10-16/17	597	339	0.57	73.7%	89.5%
Steven Stamkos	09/10-16/17	507	298	0.59	83.9%	86.5%
Corey Perry	09/10-16/17	600	258	0.43	96.9%	118.2%
Sidney Crosby	09/10-16/17	492	250	0.51
Patrick Kane	09/10-16/17	578	239	0.41	141.8%	137.3%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Goals	GPG	Margin	GPG Margin
Alex Ovechkin	05/06-17/18	1003	607	0.61
Sidney Crosby	05/06-17/18	864	411	0.48	147.7%	127.2%
Evgeni Malkin	06/07-17/18	784	370	0.47	164.1%	128.2%
Steven Stamkos	08/09-17/18	664	348	0.52	174.4%	115.5%
Ilya Kovalchuk	05/06-12/13	589	309	0.52	196.4%	115.4%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Goals	GPG	Margin	GPG Margin
Jaromir Jagr	94/95-05/06	798	466	0.58
Peter Bondra	94/95-05/06	767	397	0.52	117.4%	112.8%
Teemu Selanne	94/95-05/06	824	391	0.47	119.2%	123.1%
Keith Tkachuk	94/95-05/06	713	374	0.52	124.6%	111.3%
Pavel Bure	94/95-02/03	478	283	0.59	164.7%	98.6%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	Seasons	Games	Goals	GPG	Margin	GPG Margin
Mark Messier	81/82-95/96	1054	504	0.48
Mike Gartner	81/82-95/96	1133	580	0.51	86.9%	93.4%
Jarri Kurri	81/82-95/96	1024	551	0.54	91.5%	88.9%
Dino Ciccerelli	81/82-95/96	1047	533	0.51	94.6%	93.9%
Steve Yzerman	83/84-95/96	942	517	0.55	97.5%	87.1%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

*Mario and Wayne excluded

Player	Seasons	Games	Goals	GPG	Margin	GPG Margin
Stan Mikita	61/62-69/70	635	297	0.47
Bobby Hull	61/62-69/70	603	409	0.68	72.6%	69.0%
Gordie Howe	61/62-69/70	644	294	0.46	101.0%	102.5%
Frank Mahovlich	61/62-69/70	610	281	0.46	105.7%	101.5%
Norm Ullman	61/62-69/70	629	260	0.41	114.2%	113.2%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Playoffs tables to come at another time.

 

[MXD]

Bob Holly's post at the top of the page, where he compares Crosby to Hasek. He is not factoring in Hasek's pre-nhl career. He is comparing them strictly based on their nhl careers. Hasek clearly has Crosby beat on longevity once his career from the 1980's is taken into consideration. This doesn't matter too much to me, I expect Hasek to get voted in soon.

That is absolutely immaterial to the question I asked though.

Full disclosure : I'm ranking Hasek first in this round, and that might just be my most obvious placement in the whole project.

 

[Nick Hansen]

What do people on here think about Harvey's competition for his Norris trophies?

 

[ImporterExporter]

For all the criticism you level towards Morenz's playoff resume, you seem to give Crosby a free pass for 2010-2015. And I certainly see why somebody might do that on the basis of the stats sheet, but this simply neglects the tremendous differences the playoff format caused.

Take 1927, where you've pointed out that Morenz had "1 goal in 4 games. Out in semi's". Accurate statement, not a great look.

But is this really any different than 2013? Crosby had "0 points in 4 games. Out in semi's" against the Bruins. Does Crosby racking up some nice point totals against Ottawa and NY Islanders really count for anything here? I don't think it should. The Penguins goals that year were certainly loftier than getting swept in the semi final.

All the things you point out about Morenz in 1931 can also be applied to Crosby, who was similarly shut down in the 2009 final, (1 G, 2A) in 7 games. Other players had to step up to win Pittsburgh the Cup in this instance, same as Montreal in 1931.

Does this:



Honestly look all that different that this:



The idea that Crosby was a better playoff performer than Morenz by any great degree is built entirely on the strength of scoring totals accumulated in the early rounds during the 4-round/best-of-7 era, when playoff scoring remained at a comparable level to regular season scoring.

If the Penguins had regularly been a sizeable underdog in these first round playoff series, I think it would be easier to ascribe some value to them. But they were pretty much always favoured, usually significantly. So I just don't see playoff series like 2010 vs Ottawa or 2013 vs NY Islanders are really being worth anything. And these are the series that create the apparent gulf between Crosby and Morenz. Similar opportunities simply did not exist in Morenz' time.

To expand on this as it concerns the rest of the candidates...what Mark Messier did in the 1980s against Winnipeg and Los Angeles is similarly near-worthless. What he did against the Flames, Islanders, Flyers, and Bruins is what we should interested in. Stan Mikita in the early 70's first rounds against the new expansion teams? Unimportant. Montreal, Boston, NY were the real competition.

I enter this voting round with Morenz and Crosby as my 1-2 coming in. So I don't need to be sold on either player. But if somebody is knocking Morenz down a peg for playoffs, it is inconsistent IMO to elevate Crosby for his. Further study may indicate that this is also true for Morenz in relation to other candidates as well.

Sample size my friend. Sample size.

Crosby has already played 160 games in the postseason. I know, i know, different era's but the fact is it's easier to find games or series of modern players that detract than it is from players who literally had entire playoff runs that I can count on one hand.

It's not an easy cross era comparison but Morenz has a lot more no shows than Crosby.

Fact is Crosby is one of 3 players to win back to back Smythes. Argue all you want against his 2016 one. It certainly is one of the weaker ones in history but do we just throw what he did out? Went power on power against Joe Thornton and Pavelski's line in the finals. You know how many goals the Sharks top line scored? 1. An empty netter. People want to throw out complete hypotheticals like Morenz had poor production in 30 and 31 because he had to play defense for the top line covering for Gagnon. I find that possible, but highly unlikely regardless, without concrete evidence to the contrary. Are we going to give Sid some credit for shutting down 2 very good player?

In that first run Crosby scored a game winning OT goal against Tampa in the Conference Finals with the team down 0-1 in the series. What if Pitt fell in that game and went down 0-2? Pretty massive goal i would say.



Cup final, game 2, Crosby draws up the final play, wins a clean faceoff and Conor Sheary pots the OT game winner. Another massive play that Sid created and executed perfectly. Listen to Sheary in the post game interview talk about Sid drawing it up on the fly.



How about 2017?

The next one? A very fine Smythe, leading the postseason in assists, better point per game average than Malkin who finished with 1 more point than Sid in 2 more games.

Conference Finals, Game 7, double OT, Crosby with the primary assist on the Kunitz's game winner. These aren't early round huge moments.



Crosby was the best player in the Cup finals against Nashville. I was personally at Game 5 in Pittsburgh when Crosby played one of the greatest games of his entire career. A night I will never forget. Blowout win that Sid started from the 1st shift when he won the opening faceoff, and seconds later rang one off the post, drawing a penalty, which the Pens scored on to start the onslaught.


How about playoff VsX?

Sid pretty far ahead of Morenz. And that's not including Crosby's ridiculous 21 points in 12 games last playoffs.

# | Name | VsX5P 1 | Wayne Gretzky | 685 2 | Gordie Howe | 583 3 | Maurice Richard | 575 4 | Jean Beliveau | 559 5 | Bernie Geoffrion | 550 6 | Phil Esposito | 549 7 | Joe Sakic | 543 8 | Guy Lafleur | 528 9 | Mario Lemieux | 518 10 | Ted Kennedy | 517 11 | Evgeni Malkin | 512 12 | Sidney Crosby | 505 13 | Frank Boucher | 501 14 | Dickie Moore | 498 15 | Bobby Hull | 497 16 | Ted Lindsay | 496 17 | Mike Bossy | 492 18 | Mark Messier | 490 19 | Jacques Lemaire | 485 20 | Frank Mahovlich | 484 21 | Peter Forsberg | 481 22 | Sergei Fedorov | 481 23 | Stan Mikita | 476 24 | Bryan Trottier | 475 25 | Doug Gilmour | 471 26 | Toe Blake | 466 27 | Jari Kurri | 461 28 | Elmer Lach | 456 29 | Yvan Cournoyer | 456 30 | Howie Morenz | 455 31 | Steve Yzerman | 449 32 | Norm Ullman | 447 33 | Cy Denneny | 446 34 | Patrick Kane | 435 35 | Sid Abel | 435 36 | Max Bentley | 434 37 | Marty Barry | 429 38 | Mike Modano | 427 39 | Rick MacLeish | 424 40 | Alex Delvecchio | 420 41 | Denis Savard | 412 42 | Johnny Bucyk | 410 43 | Henri Richard | 408 44 | Marian Hossa | 406 45 | Brett Hull | 404 46 | Gordie Drillon | 404 47 | Carl Liscombe | 403 48 | Fleming MacKell | 397 49 | Glenn Anderson | 397 50 | Syl Apps | 397 [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Sure Sid had a poor stretch from 2012 to 2015 (2011 was lost due to injury and 2012 he was coming back from a nasty broken jaw) but as somebody like @Mike Farkas can attest, those Pens teams were absolute disasters because Dan Bylsma had no clue what the f*** he was doing. Even still in those years Sid had 36 points in 38 games. Marc Andre Fleury was one of the worst playoff goalies off all time during that stretch, the D was putrid overall.

But the fact remains Sid way more often than not, produced. He was generally a solid defensive player, solid in the dot, scored at an elite rate and between 2008 and 2017 went to 4 Stanley Cup finals, leading or co-leading the team to 3 wins.

I can only point to one Cup win where Morenz can lay claim to being the best player, or most important for Montreal. Plenty of other poor showings. Certainly more so than Crosby by any metric I've ever seen.

 

[MXD]

What do people on here think about Harvey's competition for his Norris trophies?

I mostly think you should've asked the question earlier, since Doug Harvey has already been voted in.

 

[Nick Hansen]

I mostly think you should've asked the question earlier, since Doug Harvey has already been voted in.

Yes, but I never really saw that discussion coming up. Which disappointed me afterwards (I don't wanna interject too much). Playing on the best dynasty of all time and considering the competition, I kind of feel he went too high. I mean, for an easy stat, he barely scored any goals in the playoffs.

 

[MXD]

But the fact remains Sid way more often than not, produced. He was generally a solid defensive player, solid in the dot, scored at an elite rate and between 2008 and 2017 went to 4 Stanley Cup finals, leading or co-leading the team to 3 wins.

I can only point to one Cup win where Morenz can lay claim to being the best player, or most important for Montreal. Plenty of other poor showings. Certainly more so than Crosby by any metric I've ever seen.

... Offensively.

Look, I'm not saying Crosby WASN'T better. Just keep in mind that :

- Morenz could do things that wouldn't show on the scoresheet (not that Crosby doesn't, mind you)
- Morenz played part of his career where assists didn't come as easily (and that point has nothing to do with the chronic undercounting of assists, nor with any of the Secondary Sid nonsense)
- Morenz probably did something right if his strictly inferior linemate managed to score lots of goals.
- Every damn player of that era had underwhelming playoffs numbers except Frank Boucher.

 

[MXD]

Yes, but I never really saw that discussion coming up. Which disappointed me afterwards (I don't wanna interject too much). Playing on the best dynasty of all time and considering the competition, I kind of feel he went too high. I mean, for an easy stat, he barely scored any goals in the playoffs.

Doug Harvey has been available since Vote 1. You should've raised your points earlier, if you had any.

And besides, raising the amount of goals scored in playoffs for a D-Men playing in the 50ies (and wasn't a huge goalscorer in the first place) is... (use unkind word of your choice).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Use the stickied main thread to talk about Doug Harvey.

We have 12 candidates in post 1. Harvey isn't one of them.

 

[overg]

I see what I can find.



Oh sure. But your headliner was: What happened when Jágr and Ovechkin were asked to play defensive hockey. You rightfully pointed out an instance of Jágr not buying in defensively - in contrast to Ovechkin who bought in, albeit to little success. If, however, it is true that Jágr bought in defensively with the Czech team with the result they won an international best-on-best tournament, then the picture changes a bit.

Of course, that doesn't turn Jágr into a noted two-way player, but we're comparing him with Ovechkin here, so...

For all of Jagr's focus on one end of the ice, it seemed to be a net gain for his teams. He has the second highest +/- rating of all players starting with the '89 - '90 season. Only Lidstrom (+450) betters Jagr's +322.

Source: http://hkref.com/tiny/G6Bk1

On that note, the fact that Lidstrom tops the next closest player by 39.7% over a 28 year time frame is pretty impressive.

And since this particular issue was originally comparing Ovechkin and Jagr, I'll add that Ovechkin is 47th in +/- since his career began.

Source: http://hkref.com/tiny/wVpTB

 

[Captain Bowie]

Somehow I still see Eddie Shore at the bottom of the list of defencemen.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

All right- let me rephrase...

If you could offer a "career-services" contract to anyone available for voting this round... wouldn't Nicklas Lidström be on your (very) short-list?!? And remember, the terms of the project are- we are to judge players by what they have done to this point!!

It's a thing of mine- I prefer developed pictures to developing ones, generally speaking.

 

[daver]

What are people's thoughts on Jagr's first four years? He did he not reach his prime until 94/95 which left him catching up to OV who had his legacy season by his fourth year after being drafted.

 

[Nick Hansen]

What are people's thoughts on Jagr's first four years? He did he not reach his prime until 94/95 which left him catching up to OV who had his legacy season by his fourth year after being drafted.

His playoff numbers look surprisingly good compared to what he was in the RS. Although the Penguins just crushed the others in the PO's so...

 

[ImporterExporter]

... Offensively.

Look, I'm not saying Crosby WASN'T better. Just keep in mind that :

- Morenz could do things that wouldn't show on the scoresheet (not that Crosby doesn't, mind you)
- Morenz played part of his career where assists didn't come as easily (and that point has nothing to do with the chronic undercounting of assists, nor with any of the Secondary Sid nonsense)
- Morenz probably did something right if his strictly inferior linemate managed to score lots of goals.
- Every damn player of that era had underwhelming playoffs numbers except Frank Boucher.

Agree on Morenz suffering some (to what degree we may never truly know) from lack of complete assists pre consolidation especially.

But like Morenz (you did mention this) Crosby has also done other things that don't show up on the score sheet, like pretty much owning Thornton head to head, even if 87's point production was down.

Also, people want to scream about Kessel being robbed. Where was Kessel with the Pens up 2-1 with a minute left in game 6 of the Cup finals? On the bench. What was Sid doing? Blocking a point shot and assisting on the empty net goal by Hornqvist.



That and the other big moments I showed on my last posts. People just say, "Kessel scored the most points for Pittsburgh" hold their nose and don't want to actually go beyond the stat sheet. And it's not like Phil was Pitt's top scorer by a big margin. It was 3 points. Less than the difference between Ovechkin and Kuznetsov btw. Personally i thought Crosby and Letang were the most important players for Pittsburgh with Kessel and Murray in the next tier in 2016. Kessel was fantastic but as a winger who doesn't offer a whole lot defensively or on the boards better be well ahead in production to offset the differences in responsibilities.

And yes, every player in Howie's era had "underwhelming" numbers compared to later times but there were certainly more impressive postseason performers pre consolidation IMO. Nighbor comes to mind immediately. Marty Barry looks real good as far as 1930's players go.

Either way I don't have Morenz near the bottom of my list this round. I just think at this point Sid has passed him by a decent margin.

 

[Nick Hansen]

I don't really get focusing on Thornton as he is known as an all-time bad playoff performer regardless of what you think of him otherwise... (top 100 player for me, rather him than Francis)

I know you're having a bad time, but people want to 'scream' and 'hold their nose' on here with regards to Crosby (and Kessel)? Not seeing it...

 

[VanIslander]

Don't rush to induct Morenz quite yet if you are one of those who thought an ineligible contemporary of his was likely better. Let's have the arguments available once the guy is eligible.