Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Nov 11, 2018.

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  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Procedure
    • You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
    • The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
    • A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

    Eligible Voters
    • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
    • Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

    Guidelines
    • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
    • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
    • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
    • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

    House Rules
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

    The actual voting period will open up on Friday, November 16th at midnight and continue through Sunday, November 18th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, November 19th.


    Vote 3 Candidates
    • Alex Ovechkin
    • Denis Potvin
    • Dominik Hasek
    • Eddie Shore
    • Howie Morenz
    • Jacques Plante
    • Jaromir Jagr
    • Mark Messier
    • Nicklas Lidstrom
    • Ray Bourque
    • Sidney Crosby
    • Stan Mikita
     
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  2. seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Hot take: we have one defenseman who is easily behind the other three
     
  3. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    VsX - seven and ten year scores

    Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 7YR 10YR
    Jaromir Jagr 126.0 124.2 118.7 116.0 112.1 102.1 100.0 87.8 87.2 85.1 114.2 105.9
    Stan Mikita 138.6 114.1 104.8 103.6 100.0 100.0 93.8 91.7 90.7 87.9 107.8 102.5
    Sidney Crosby 119.5 105.3 100.0 100.0 98.2 97.7 96.2 95.5 93.6 87.3 102.4 99.3
    Howie Morenz 145.7 118.6 100.0 98.0 93.1 80.6 79.5 72.3 52.5 48.8 102.2 88.9
    Alex Ovechkin 105.7 100.0 100.0 100.0 98.2 94.2 90.8 85.9 85.3 80.7 98.4 94.1
    Mark Messier 100.0 99.1 92.2 85.5 84.7 83.5 82.5 77.1 75.7 70.0 89.6 85.0
    Raymond Bourque 88.0 81.7 79.3 75.8 69.8 68.3 65.1 63.7 61.8 61.5 75.5 71.5
    Denis Potvin 87.1 86.2 82.4 76.2 70.2 62.8 59.3 56.3 53.2 50.4 74.9 68.4
    Nicklas Lidstrom 77.7 75.5 74.0 66.0 65.6 64.8 62.6 59.6 55.8 54.4 69.4 65.6
    Eddie Shore 79.5 72.1 70.2 65.5 56.3 50.0 48.6 47.5 44.0 40.9 63.2 57.5
    Hart trophy voting

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
    Eddie Shore41218
    Sidney Crosby231118
    Alexander Ovechkin3227
    Jaromir Jagr14117
    Howie Morenz31116
    Dominik Hasek21216
    Stan Mikita211116
    Ray Bourque2215
    Denis Potvin1124
    Nicklas Lidstrom134
    Mark Messier213
    Jacques Plante112
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  4. Tuna Tatarrrrrr Here Is The Legendary Rat Of HFBoards! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    With Bobby Orr and Harvey ranked, the next defenseman should be Bourque. Shore's playoffs are not so great despite his four Hart trophies, Potvin had probably the best peak of the four but he didn't have the longevity of Bourque and Lidstrom. And Bourque was like a more physical Lidstrom with better offense, as good defensively and a better longevity where only Howe was better than him. Bourque was a slightly better and more evolved version of Lidstrom.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  5. MXD Original #4

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    Hot take : I might end up ranking a goalie at the very top spot of each round until the end of the project.
     
  6. overg Registered User

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    On deck this round . . . the battle for best European ever.
     
  7. Tuna Tatarrrrrr Here Is The Legendary Rat Of HFBoards! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Indeed, it will be very interesting debate between Hasek, Jagr, Lidstrom and Ovechkin.
     
  8. Dr John Carlson Light is all over us

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    There's one name I was expecting/hoping to be available this round that isn't there... my #4 ranked defenseman.

    Considering I've seen more Ovechkin games than anybody else in this project, I'll probably do a write-up on him sometime in the next few days.
     
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  9. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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  10. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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    Comparison I did between Crosby, Messier, Morenz and Mikita a while back:



    Scoring Finishes:


    Howie Morenz

    1, 1, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 10

    Sidney Crosby

    1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6

    Stan Mikita

    1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4

    Mark Messier*

    2, 3, 5, 5, 7

    -Obviously Messier is far behind the other 3, but context is required considering he played 2nd fiddle to Gretzky in Edmonton and also played in the same era as Mario. Messier was also reliable defensively unlike many other scoring C's of his era.


    Also a look at 7 and 10 year VsX





    -Mikita and Crosby hold up the best both in 7 and 10 year versions. Morenz looks strong in the 7 year study but drops considerably in the 10 year. Messier lags well behind the other 3.


    Hart Trophy Voting:


    Morenz:

    1, 1, 1, 2, 6, 7,

    Crosby:

    1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6

    Mikita:

    1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7

    Messier:

    1, 1, 2, 9, 9


    -Morenz has the most wins with 3, but Crosby probably edges him out when looking at depth of finishes. Mikita is just behind and even Messier manages to not look out of place. This is Crosby>Morenz>Mikita>Messier especially when you consider Crosby lost nearly 2 years of his prime and a season where he was on pace for 64 goals and 132 points over 41 games (not exactly a small sample size).


    AS Finishes:


    Morenz*

    1, 1, 2

    Crosby

    1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2

    Mikita

    1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2

    Messier

    1, 1, 1, 2


    -Morenz suffers from the AS award not being around before 1931, but given the information we have otherwise (like Hart voting for example) it's safe to say that Howie would likely have only picked up another 2 AS nods in 1928 (his 1st Hart year) and 1925 (He finished 2nd to Billy Burch in Hart voting). Other years he either finished far to low in the Hart voting (and well behind multiple C's) or didn't place at all. So even if you give him another 2 nods, he's still well behind Crosby and Mikita.

    Morenz after the age of 29 was finished as an elite type player, at least offensively. A guy like Messier actually had one of his best seasons after 30 (1992) and another Hart caliber year at age 35. Crosby doesn't seem to be slowing down as he is about to turn 30 and coming off a tremendous year all around, but we'll have to see what transpires there.


    Playoff Caliber Players?


    -Morenz might be the weakest playoff performer here, although Mikita probably is in all reality. His 2 best playoff performances came prior to consolidation in 1924 and 1925. No question he was great both those years (competition has to be factored in) but after that, which makes up the bulk of his carer?

    1927 - 1 goal in 4 games. Out in semi's.

    1928 - 0 points in 2 games. Out in round 1.

    1929 - 0 points in 3 games. Out in round 1.

    1930 - He has 1 goal in the 2 game Cup final. 4 players scored more than he did for Montreal.

    1931 - He scores 1 lonely goal in 5 (FIVE) games in Cup final. 5 players score more, including Johnny Gagnon with 4 goals and 6 points.

    1932 - 1 goal in 4 games. Knocked out in round 1. 5 players score more.

    1933 - Morenz was better with 3 assists in 2 games. Montreal still knocked in quarters.

    1934 - 2 points in 2 games. Montreal out in quarters.

    1935 - 0 points in 2 games. Hawks out in round 1.

    15 points in 35 games after consolidation. And in the 2 years Montreal did win the Cup, Morenz was almost completely shut down. We see far less talented players stepping up.

    Other random players totals in same or similar time periods (all post consolidation #'s):

    Johnny Gagnon - 24 points in 32 games
    Aurele Joliat - 19 in 40
    Bill Cook - 24 in 46
    Joe Primeau 23 in 38
    Charlie Conacher 35 in 49
    Harry Oliver 16 in 35


    -Mark Messier is ahead in postseason performance IMO but Sid has closed the gap considerably. There is reason why he finished where he did in the recently completed top 40 HoH playoff performer project. Crosby is clearly 2nd here, especially given the events of the last 2 years. You can debate 3rd and 4th between Mikita and Morenz but they're clearly well behind both Messier and Sid.

    Crosby dominant in the postseason and on the international stage:

    -Crosby's dominance in the postseason might not be held as high as it should be, especially considering his career is nowhere near complete. By age 30 he had done:

    -3 Cup wins in 4 tries. Been to 5 Conference finals.

    -Crosby is only the 3rd player in NHL history to win back to back Conn Smythes.

    -8th all time in playoff points per game

    -185 points already puts him in a tie for 10th place with Steve Yzerman.

    -63 Career Multi Point games in playoffs (3rd all time) in 160 games.

    -Consider, Jari Kurri, playing in the highest scoring era of all time, had 60 MPG's but needed 200 contests to reach that. Mark Messier, 2nd all time, had 77 in 236 games.


    2 Olympic Gold medals in 2 tries (2010/2014)
    -Scored Golden goal in OT of gold medal game 2010
    1 World Championship Gold (2015)
    1 World Cup of Hockey Gold (2016)
    -MVP and leading scorer
    1 World Junior Gold (2005)


    -Also named Best Forward at World Championship in 2006

    -Youngest Player in history to win a World Championship scoring title (2006)

    -Member of Quadruple Gold Club (Gold medeal at World Junior, WC', Olympics, and WCOH)

    -Only player in hockey history to captain every team of the quad/triple gold clubs.

    -Orr, Gretzky and Crosby are the three players in history to win the Hart Trophy, the Conn Smythe Trophy, and MVP at the Canada Cup or World Cup of Hockey.

    -He is the 6th player in NHL history to win the Stanley Cup three times with two Olympic gold medals. Crosby joins Igor Larionov, Martin Brodeur, Scott Niedermayer, Duncan Keith, and Jonathan Toews as the players who make up that prestigious fraternity
     
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  11. ted2019 Know your History

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    Mikita vs. Crosby could be interesting.
    Hasek vs. Jagr
    Ovie vs. Jagr
     
  12. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    Wow, 12 names this round.

    Surprised to see Messier this early.
     
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  13. Dirt 101 Dirt, the famous Nevada railway cat

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    Plante played behind Beliveau, Richard and Harvey (you know, the most responsible for the dynasty, as was argued last round) and he lost 1st and 2nd team all star selections to contemporaries. He's more like a Billy Smith or Grant Fuhr than a Roy or Hasek.

    Plante (should be close to Hall, Sawchuk) doesn't belong anywhere near Hasek; Hasek belongs closer to Roy.
     
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  14. Dirt 101 Dirt, the famous Nevada railway cat

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    Mikita vs. Potvin ...

    I have no opinion on this. Never gave it a thought and have no set impressions.

    Would love to hear a detailed argument on them.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  15. ted2019 Know your History

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    I see Hasek as my top player early on. Crosby could be in my top 4 as Bourque. The 4th player should be fun to find. Curious on the placement of Potvin and Jagr/Ovechkin. I don't see Messier in my top 4, the same can be said for Shore.
     
  16. Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Plante was on the 1953 SC champions without Beliveau who was still in the QSHL.

    1959 led the team to the SC with Maurice Richard and Beliveau, injured, Harvey playing hurt.

    1962 Hart Trophy winner without Maurice Richard, Doug Harvey, Beliveau missing 25+ games.
     
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  17. ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    Initial Impression:

    Howie Morenz
    Ray Bourque

    then, four Europeans to choose three.

    Time for Messier & Plante nominations, which ≠ time for their advancement.

    Sidney Crosby received my last-place vote last round. He will not receive my last-place vote this round.
     
  18. ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    A good starting point to opening our eyes to the possibility that Sidney Crosby just might not be the Second-Baddest Aqua-Bird of All-Time.

    Further perusals yield:

    AS-Team:
    Jagr: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2
    Crosby: 1,1,1,1,2,2,2

    Outstanding/Valuable Trophies:
    Hart:
    Jagr: 1x winner, 3x runner-up
    Crosby: 2x winner, 3x runner-up
    Pearson/Lindsay:
    Jagr: 3x
    Crosby: 3x

    Plus-Minus through age 30 (i.e.: Crosby's last completed year):
    Jagr: +212
    Crosby: +165

    [Oh, and by-the-way, Jagr lost a production year through no personal fault of his own. (The 04-05 Lockout season.) The year after that, he banked a Pearson/Lindsay as a 33-year-old, so there could have been something in the tank the year before, too- if he'd had a chance to show it. This theme comes also comes into play this round- with Lidström, who had six 1st team AS nods and three Norrises before the Lockout, and four AS-1s and four Norrises after it.]
     
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  19. zffssk On Break

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    First impressions:

    • Morenz is my preliminary #1, with Crosby, Shore and Plante the leading candidates to follow him.Messier vs. Crosby will be interesting to explore.
    • Disappointing not to have Lafleur to compare him to Jagr and Ovechkin, but I don't think neither should get in yet anyway.
    • Messier > Mikita, change my mind (I had multiple non-eligible centers over Mikita, hope someone will make the case for him)
    • Glad to see Denis Potvin coming up.I voted him ahead of both Bourque and Lidstrom based on peak, leadership, all-aroundness, playoffs and being the key guy transitioning a lottery team into a dynasty.This is undoubtedly an unpopular opinion.Will try to post more about him later this week.I think he's being punished for his RS in the early 80s, but frankly I don't think they matter that much since he was busy generalling a dynasty, which de facto makes him the most important defenseman of that window in the NHL.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  20. Orange Dragon Registered User

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    I'm big Jagr fan, but I doubt we would see monster season of him like in 05-06 season without the lockout, I think he absolutely needed the year off the NHL to rejuvenate himself. On the other hand every one had a year off, and Jagr get the most of it (and Thornton ofc).
     
  21. sr edler whom

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    Would have liked to see a 1910s guy on here too, like a Nighbor or a Cyclone, for spread/discussion reasons. It feels a bit clunked (probably not a real word, but I’m not an English speaker) now.

    Someone has to make a splendid case for Messier for me not ranking him last. He’s not better than Trottier/Clarke or even Esposito, in ehhedler’s book.
     
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  22. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    Little surprised to see Alexander Ovechkin and not to see Red Kelly...
     
  23. sr edler whom

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    He just won the Cup, bruh.

    No, but even if I have warmed up a little to Ovechkin, and even if he had an inspiring playoff run last spring (even though Kuznetsov was better), he's still a player with a very distinct peak (2007–2010), and a very distinct fall from that peak, and a subsequent transformation to something that wasn't close to that peak neither stylistically or effectively, something of a post peak Brett Hull hybrid with better skating. And with a few semi-suspect international showings.

    Jagr's certainly better than that, even with all his own faults. (they're really close on my own list though, I just recognized)
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
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  24. bobholly39 Registered User

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    Ecstatic to *finally* see Jaromir Jagr show up. I really feel he had a case against both Hull and Richard and disappointed we didn't get to make it. To me Jaromir Jagr is:

    - Arguably the 5th best peak in hockey history (after the big 4). Both on height of peak - but also length, he does fantastic in both metrics
    - Arguably the greatest longevity for a player (certainly a winger) after Gordie Howe in hockey history (he has a few holes in his overall career with a few off years - but he lasted longer than most as a high caliber player, which is what i mean by longevity)

    Obviously - based on the fact that he wasn't available last round, let alone in the first round, I take it many people around here aren't as high on him as I am. I hope he gets a fair share though. Other metrics on which he does well:

    - International Resume. Nothing Gretzky-like, but many very strong performances over the long run
    - Playoffs. Not many of those "single heroic smythe-worthy runs" maybe - but i think his overall resume still shows a consistent performer year over year (looking forward to analyzing more in-depth).

    His case will rest majorly on offensive contributions. That's not a bad thing. He was an offensive winger (like Hull - already voted in) - but did that better than almost anyone.
     
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  25. zffssk On Break

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    I fail to see what makes Jagr's peak better than Lafleur's, considering the latter continued it throughout the playoffs in grandiose fashion.There's no reason to separate RS and playoffs.
     
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