BM67
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The leading playoff scorers during the first 10 years of Potvin's career:
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Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3
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vadim sharifijanov
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i don't necessarily remember it this way. i would say that through the '80s it was probably the other way around. bourque by the mid-80s establishing himself as one of the league's "mortal MVPs" (my term for the best guy after gretzky/mario) while messier, while tremendous, still having question marks about benefitting from being in a second banana situation.
obviously, messier answers those questions and ups his historical standing big time starting in 1990. but can messier 1990-1996 really put him above bourque's lead, given 1. that bourque's 1990-1996 stretch is one of the greatest seven year stretches in the history of the blueline, and 2. comparing messier post-'97 vs. bourque post-'97 is a sick joke?
messier has the playoffs, yes. but in terms of generally being considered the better of the two, i'd argue that that was only the case during those seven seasons and it's highly arguable in every one of those years, as well as the perceived gap being partly a function of being in a position to look really really good (succeeding gretzky, and then turning around the rangers). that's not to say that those are easy things to do or that messier didn't come through big time, of course. but if bourque was less of a company man (staying with the cheapo bruins and even repeatedly drawing the ire of the NHLPA for taking less than he could have), what could, for instance, a peak bourque landing in chelios' place on the blackhawks look like? unless mike keenan doesn't like his face he probably wins that elusive hart trophy, no?
i really like these two as a side-by-side comparison. it just makes too much sense: each guy succeeded an older player coming off a historically great peak and was partially overshadowed by it, each probably didn't initially get enough credit for how great he was because his team was so stacked, each later proved his worth when there was less left in front of him. but possibly also overrated at times because of all the trophies and championships. could go either way on the order.
digging this comparison too.
BenchBrawl
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
vadim sharifijanov
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Nick Hansen
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ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Jagr has peak offense over Ovechkin, no doubt, but Ovechkin could be argued as the best goal scorer ever and has been consistent in that area for a long time now.
I'm not high on either as postseason performers go but Ovi at least has that career defining run and Smythe to his name (even if Kuz deserved it). Nothing really special outside that though, which is where I'm at on Jagr. He just never stood out over the course of an entire postseason run which is puzzling considering he was so offensively talented.
I'm not high on either as postseason performers go but Ovi at least has that career defining run and Smythe to his name (even if Kuz deserved it). Nothing really special outside that though, which is where I'm at on Jagr. He just never stood out over the course of an entire postseason run which is puzzling considering he was so offensively talented.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Looking at key goals allowed in the playoffs within a group of over 5 goalies - larger sample space, changes the narrative.Dominik Hasek fades quickly but Jacques Plante rises like cream..
Plante was the stingiest at giving up the first goal of the game and by far the best at protecting 3rd period leads. Hasek was a reasonable second - first goal, distant 6th protecting leads in non-contentious catagories.
Let's look at RS efforts.
Why do goalies contend for maybe win Hart Trophies? Key element is keeping the team in the game.
RS team goals against by period are available from 1933-34 to date.
Key goalies. Format GA 1st/2nd/3rd period. * Hart Winner. OT not included since OT was not played all seasons. Transcribed in good faith.
2014-15 Carey Price* 59/63/61
2001-02 Jose Theodore* 60/66/80
Dominik Hasek*
1997-98* 73/59/54
1996-97* 72/83/90
1961-62 Jacques Plante* 59/57/50
1953-54 Al Rollins * 76/80/84
1952-53 Al Rollins 57/57/61
1949-50 Chuck Rayner* 57/67/65
Harry Lumley
1954-55 43/49/43
1953-54 59/39/42
Roman Turek
56/61/47
Dominik Hasek was not the strongest Hart winner. From from. Just like he is far behind Jacques Plante this round.
More to come
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
TBH, I thought this was so obvious, I didn't bother posting it. Of course, Ovechkin felt trapped by Hunter's system . What Ovechkin-type player wouldn't?
The Macho King
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My take is "that's not nearly a sufficient sample size to make a good argument."
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
If true (and I'd want more details), it doesn't make Jagr's 5th place scoring finish in 01-02 less empty.
Kyle McMahon
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- May 10, 2006
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For all the criticism you level towards Morenz's playoff resume, you seem to give Crosby a free pass for 2010-2015. And I certainly see why somebody might do that on the basis of the stats sheet, but this simply neglects the tremendous differences the playoff format caused.
Take 1927, where you've pointed out that Morenz had "1 goal in 4 games. Out in semi's". Accurate statement, not a great look.
But is this really any different than 2013? Crosby had "0 points in 4 games. Out in semi's" against the Bruins. Does Crosby racking up some nice point totals against Ottawa and NY Islanders really count for anything here? I don't think it should. The Penguins goals that year were certainly loftier than getting swept in the semi final.
All the things you point out about Morenz in 1931 can also be applied to Crosby, who was similarly shut down in the 2009 final, (1 G, 2A) in 7 games. Other players had to step up to win Pittsburgh the Cup in this instance, same as Montreal in 1931.
Does this:
Honestly look all that different that this:
The idea that Crosby was a better playoff performer than Morenz by any great degree is built entirely on the strength of scoring totals accumulated in the early rounds during the 4-round/best-of-7 era, when playoff scoring remained at a comparable level to regular season scoring.
If the Penguins had regularly been a sizeable underdog in these first round playoff series, I think it would be easier to ascribe some value to them. But they were pretty much always favoured, usually significantly. So I just don't see playoff series like 2010 vs Ottawa or 2013 vs NY Islanders are really being worth anything. And these are the series that create the apparent gulf between Crosby and Morenz. Similar opportunities simply did not exist in Morenz' time.
To expand on this as it concerns the rest of the candidates...what Mark Messier did in the 1980s against Winnipeg and Los Angeles is similarly near-worthless. What he did against the Flames, Islanders, Flyers, and Bruins is what we should interested in. Stan Mikita in the early 70's first rounds against the new expansion teams? Unimportant. Montreal, Boston, NY were the real competition.
I enter this voting round with Morenz and Crosby as my 1-2 coming in. So I don't need to be sold on either player. But if somebody is knocking Morenz down a peg for playoffs, it is inconsistent IMO to elevate Crosby for his. Further study may indicate that this is also true for Morenz in relation to other candidates as well.
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ChiTownPhilly
Not Too Soft
Best NHL Careers after age 30
D'ja ever think about this one? First place is no suspense- it's Gordie Howe by a continent. How about second place, though? Doesn't Nicklas Lidström have a great case for this one? After age 30, he went...
AS: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2
Norris: 6x
Oh, yeah- and a Smythe/Cup, too.
(not to belabor the point, but he also missed a season due to the Lockout and still did what he did.)
He's one of those rare guys of whom it can be said- you could take his career, split it in two, and have two first-ballot Hall-of-Famers.
If you could get a player on a "lifetime-services" contract, wouldn't this guy absolutely be on your short-list? A perennial All-Star whom you can count on to stay healthy and play smart, productive, percentage hockey up to and including age 40?!
On my rough draft, I had Lidström ahead of Bourque. On my submitted list, I put Bourque in front. Now, I'm not so sure that I didn't have it right the first time...
D'ja ever think about this one? First place is no suspense- it's Gordie Howe by a continent. How about second place, though? Doesn't Nicklas Lidström have a great case for this one? After age 30, he went...
AS: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2
Norris: 6x
Oh, yeah- and a Smythe/Cup, too.
(not to belabor the point, but he also missed a season due to the Lockout and still did what he did.)
He's one of those rare guys of whom it can be said- you could take his career, split it in two, and have two first-ballot Hall-of-Famers.
If you could get a player on a "lifetime-services" contract, wouldn't this guy absolutely be on your short-list? A perennial All-Star whom you can count on to stay healthy and play smart, productive, percentage hockey up to and including age 40?!
On my rough draft, I had Lidström ahead of Bourque. On my submitted list, I put Bourque in front. Now, I'm not so sure that I didn't have it right the first time...
BenchBrawl
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Denis Potvin on why he sacrificed some of his offense
May 14, 1984
There are times - although not as often as in the days when he was scoring in the 100-point neighborhood - when Potvin takes the puck on what seems a leisurely excursion. He holds it on his stick far in front, a carrot to a charging forward, and suddenly he tucks it away and is off, effortlessly, powerfully, toward opposition territory.
But that style is not what Denis Potvin is about these days as the Islanders, the team he captains, move their Stanley Cup championship series to Edmonton, tied at one game apiece.
He has sacrificed that famed offensive thrust in order to fit in more with the makeup of the team. Although it seems new to many who see Potvin only in the playoffs, it is a style he adapted several years ago and with which he has grown comfortable.
He changed several years ago, when Coach Al Arbour told him that, finally, there were enough other talented offensive players on the team.
''This is a conscious effort on my part,'' he says. ''There are times in the neutral zone I never touch the puck. The reason is my long relationship with Al. He's been a key figure in demonstrating to me that the puck will come to you if you wait. I like to have the puck in front of me so I can take in all the ice. When I'm chasing it, I don't see the ice. Also, my first four years here I was the leading scorer. As the team settled in, there was less reason for me to carry so much.''
[...]
Now that Potvin no longer is a 100- point man, he seems distressed (but doesn't actually complain) that the award usually goes to a defenseman who produces a high amount of points.
''I'm glad to see that Rod Langway got the Norris even though he wasn't the leading scorer,'' Potvin says of the Washington defenseman who won the award last season.
THE CHANGING LIVES OF DENIS POTVIN
May 14, 1984
There are times - although not as often as in the days when he was scoring in the 100-point neighborhood - when Potvin takes the puck on what seems a leisurely excursion. He holds it on his stick far in front, a carrot to a charging forward, and suddenly he tucks it away and is off, effortlessly, powerfully, toward opposition territory.
But that style is not what Denis Potvin is about these days as the Islanders, the team he captains, move their Stanley Cup championship series to Edmonton, tied at one game apiece.
He has sacrificed that famed offensive thrust in order to fit in more with the makeup of the team. Although it seems new to many who see Potvin only in the playoffs, it is a style he adapted several years ago and with which he has grown comfortable.
He changed several years ago, when Coach Al Arbour told him that, finally, there were enough other talented offensive players on the team.
''This is a conscious effort on my part,'' he says. ''There are times in the neutral zone I never touch the puck. The reason is my long relationship with Al. He's been a key figure in demonstrating to me that the puck will come to you if you wait. I like to have the puck in front of me so I can take in all the ice. When I'm chasing it, I don't see the ice. Also, my first four years here I was the leading scorer. As the team settled in, there was less reason for me to carry so much.''
[...]
Now that Potvin no longer is a 100- point man, he seems distressed (but doesn't actually complain) that the award usually goes to a defenseman who produces a high amount of points.
''I'm glad to see that Rod Langway got the Norris even though he wasn't the leading scorer,'' Potvin says of the Washington defenseman who won the award last season.
THE CHANGING LIVES OF DENIS POTVIN
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sr edler
gold is not reality
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Hasek went to game 6 double OT of the SCFs with a team where the best scorers (in said playoffs) were Jason Woolley and Alexei Zhitnik.
If you're gonna disqualify every player winning a Cup on a dynasty, that's quite a bunch of high profile players.
BenchBrawl
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Not so rare for a defenseman.Doug Harvey's entire prime was almost all after 30.All his Norris trophies were won after age 30.
Chara is another recent example.
So basically, Harvey is the player with the greatest career after 30, including Howe and everyone else.
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Just some more on Morenz vs Crosby for playoffs.
On the playoff project we did here - Morenz wasn't ranked in the top 40 (and although he was eligible in the last vote - i don't recall him getting a ton of traction, so he arguably isn't even super close to #40).
Sidney Crosby was ranked #28 - and this was *before* his 2017 Conn Smythe (arguably his best playoff run overall) and his 2018 run (which - although only 2 rounds - is an extremely good one throughout). I would expect this should easily propel him to a top 20 playoff performer all time, if not even higher.
I think the gap for playoffs between Crosby and Morenz is considerable. I actually also think Crosby is ahead in regular season (look at PPG and not just vsx, era domination is very clear for Crosby imo) - but even if people disagree I expect the gap there is smaller than playoffs.
Finally - Sidney Crosby has one of the most impressive international resumes of all time. Maybe some voters don't give a ton of importance to that - but it should still carry *some* weight. Net positive for Crosby and too bad for Morenz for lack of opportunity - a further differentiation.
I think Crosby should definitely rank ahead of Morenz here.
On the playoff project we did here - Morenz wasn't ranked in the top 40 (and although he was eligible in the last vote - i don't recall him getting a ton of traction, so he arguably isn't even super close to #40).
Sidney Crosby was ranked #28 - and this was *before* his 2017 Conn Smythe (arguably his best playoff run overall) and his 2018 run (which - although only 2 rounds - is an extremely good one throughout). I would expect this should easily propel him to a top 20 playoff performer all time, if not even higher.
I think the gap for playoffs between Crosby and Morenz is considerable. I actually also think Crosby is ahead in regular season (look at PPG and not just vsx, era domination is very clear for Crosby imo) - but even if people disagree I expect the gap there is smaller than playoffs.
Finally - Sidney Crosby has one of the most impressive international resumes of all time. Maybe some voters don't give a ton of importance to that - but it should still carry *some* weight. Net positive for Crosby and too bad for Morenz for lack of opportunity - a further differentiation.
I think Crosby should definitely rank ahead of Morenz here.
ChiTownPhilly
Not Too Soft
If I'm reading this correctly, you seem to be saying that Doug Harvey post age 30>Gordie Howe post 30. Now, I like Harvey and all- and pursuing this is immaterial to the present discussion, but really?!?
I like Chara too, and hope that we'll talk about him before the curtain falls on this project... but please don't tell me that you actually believe that post-30 Chara is within three time zones of post-30 Lidström.
BenchBrawl
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Opinions are like ********, everyone has one.
How about EVIDENCE rather than assumptions?
Let's get back to trying to convince...
How about EVIDENCE rather than assumptions?
Let's get back to trying to convince...
Crosby vs Hasek
Playoffs.
Crosby has 4 signature “smythe-worthy” runs where he was a top 2 playoff performer in his team’s run to the cups. He also has 2018 where I think he was the clear best player through 2 rounds, and a whole lot of consistency and production outside of those runs (yes some runs were disappointing losses, but this happens for all players).
Hasek has 2 “smythe-worthy” runs – in 1999 and 2002. He also has some mileage in the playoffs outside of those 2, but less so than Crosby.
Decision:
Net advantage for Crosby in playoffs. You could argue that none of Crosby’s individual playoff runs are necessarily an all-time great one – and maybe that’s true. But still, 4 “smythe worthy” runs is terrific, and he has a lot of extra playoffs outside of those 4 too.
International Stage:
Sidney Crosby has the 2010 golden goal. And although he wasn’t necessarily the best player in that tourney (wasn’t bad, just not great) – the importance of the goal is significant, on home soil for Canada. Also – his 2014 olympics were very strong. It helps that in both cases he was team captain (2014) or assistant (2010) in terms of leadership responsibilities. Moreso than just being captain - he was undoubtedly the most heavily scrutinized player in both tourneys and he came through being very clutch in big moments. Although people don’t like the 2016 world cup – it was still a best on best tournament and Crosby excelled as MVP, and this counts too. Outside of those 3 big events – Crosby has a lot of other mileage for Canada, at world championships, etc and generally performed very well.
Dominik Hasek has one of the most impressive performances of all time on the International stage in 98 at Nagano. And whereas in terms of importance you can draw a parallel with 98 gold for Hasek to 2010 gold for Crosby – there’s no denying that Hasek’s performance was the more significant one. Hasek also has a lot of mileage outside of 98 internationally, though probably a bit less success than Crosby.
Decision:
Draw. Boring result I suppose, but let’s just call it even and move on I think. Both are great in this metric and I don’t think this should be what decides it between them.
Regular season :
Dominik Hasek has 6 “great” seasons and a bunch of good ones (probably 6 more). The 2 harts and pearsons for a goalie are extremely noteworthy of course, very much so. Two of the best seasons of all time for a goalie.
Sidney Crosby himself has 6 “great” seasons, arguably 7 if you include 2011. He also has a bunch of good ones (probably 5 more). Sidney Crosby’s domination over peers in terms of PPG is very significant throughout his prime. It’s greater than even Gordie Howe 14 years into his career - and at first glance it might be the biggest ppg domination over peers out of anyone outside of Mario & Gretzky for 14 seasons.
Decision:
I’ll probably go with Crosby again. I like offense and his PPG domination over peers of his era is pretty significant. He’s also been more consistent overall in the regular season, and even though he's only 31 he doesn't even lose on the longevity front vs Hasek.
Conclusion:
Well – it’s easy enough based on simple math that I have Crosby ahead, since he’s ahead in playoffs and regular season (though this one is much closer).
These should be two of my very top players in this round.
Playoffs.
Crosby has 4 signature “smythe-worthy” runs where he was a top 2 playoff performer in his team’s run to the cups. He also has 2018 where I think he was the clear best player through 2 rounds, and a whole lot of consistency and production outside of those runs (yes some runs were disappointing losses, but this happens for all players).
Hasek has 2 “smythe-worthy” runs – in 1999 and 2002. He also has some mileage in the playoffs outside of those 2, but less so than Crosby.
Decision:
Net advantage for Crosby in playoffs. You could argue that none of Crosby’s individual playoff runs are necessarily an all-time great one – and maybe that’s true. But still, 4 “smythe worthy” runs is terrific, and he has a lot of extra playoffs outside of those 4 too.
International Stage:
Sidney Crosby has the 2010 golden goal. And although he wasn’t necessarily the best player in that tourney (wasn’t bad, just not great) – the importance of the goal is significant, on home soil for Canada. Also – his 2014 olympics were very strong. It helps that in both cases he was team captain (2014) or assistant (2010) in terms of leadership responsibilities. Moreso than just being captain - he was undoubtedly the most heavily scrutinized player in both tourneys and he came through being very clutch in big moments. Although people don’t like the 2016 world cup – it was still a best on best tournament and Crosby excelled as MVP, and this counts too. Outside of those 3 big events – Crosby has a lot of other mileage for Canada, at world championships, etc and generally performed very well.
Dominik Hasek has one of the most impressive performances of all time on the International stage in 98 at Nagano. And whereas in terms of importance you can draw a parallel with 98 gold for Hasek to 2010 gold for Crosby – there’s no denying that Hasek’s performance was the more significant one. Hasek also has a lot of mileage outside of 98 internationally, though probably a bit less success than Crosby.
Decision:
Draw. Boring result I suppose, but let’s just call it even and move on I think. Both are great in this metric and I don’t think this should be what decides it between them.
Regular season :
Dominik Hasek has 6 “great” seasons and a bunch of good ones (probably 6 more). The 2 harts and pearsons for a goalie are extremely noteworthy of course, very much so. Two of the best seasons of all time for a goalie.
Sidney Crosby himself has 6 “great” seasons, arguably 7 if you include 2011. He also has a bunch of good ones (probably 5 more). Sidney Crosby’s domination over peers in terms of PPG is very significant throughout his prime. It’s greater than even Gordie Howe 14 years into his career - and at first glance it might be the biggest ppg domination over peers out of anyone outside of Mario & Gretzky for 14 seasons.
Decision:
I’ll probably go with Crosby again. I like offense and his PPG domination over peers of his era is pretty significant. He’s also been more consistent overall in the regular season, and even though he's only 31 he doesn't even lose on the longevity front vs Hasek.
Conclusion:
Well – it’s easy enough based on simple math that I have Crosby ahead, since he’s ahead in playoffs and regular season (though this one is much closer).
These should be two of my very top players in this round.
ChiTownPhilly
Not Too Soft
Oh, dear... NSIS---
If this were a motion, it would probably die for lack of a second:
Gordie Howe after age 30:
AS: 1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2- 3x Hart, 1 Hart runner-up, 4 more Hart finalists- and 2x Ross
Doug Harvey after age 30:
AS: 1,1,1,1,1,1,2, 6x Norris, 1x Hart runner-up, and 1 more Hart finalist
BenchBrawl
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Harvey has the sick 5 straight playoff runs too.Post-30 is almost his entire career.
I feel there's more value in Harvey's 8 straight years as by far the best D in the league than Howe's level in his 30s, regardless of the awards and recognition.
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
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Hasek's 6 seasons weren't "great" - they are up there with the peak stretch of the Big 4. What knocks him out of contention is post-peak was pretty mediocre, and he is relatively disappointing in the playoffs (with the aforementioned "quitting" in two of his postseasons).
I don't think Hasek v. Crosby is anywhere close. It's Hasek by a good amount. Crosby isn't at Roy-levels of playoff performance, so I don't see nearly enough there to make up the large gap in their regular seasons.
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