Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 20

DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
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I look at Dave Keon and I wonder, what is he that Jonathan Toews or Patrice Bergeron aren't? Is that a fair concern or am I way out to lunch on that comparison?
Question: Keon seemed to have a mediocre 1971-72 season (at least as I glance at the statistics). Was that what kept him off of Team Canada in the Summit Series? I would have expected him to be on the team. Since you mention Toews and Bergeron, I have to say that the most comfortable I ever was watching the Canadians play in the Olympics was when either Toews or Bergeron were on the ice. They simply didn't make mistakes in those tournaments. I imagine we could have used Keon's defensive acumen in '72.
 

Nick Hansen

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
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Re: Bergeron, I find it very unfortunate that he has bad luck with injuries this year and last. If not for those, I think he could've garnered some legitimate support for the Hart - I mean, the best defensive center in the league scoring PPG or more? Talk about valuable.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
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I look at Dave Keon and I wonder, what is he that Jonathan Toews or Patrice Bergeron aren't? Is that a fair concern or am I way out to lunch on that comparison?

I made that point last round (especially comparing him to Bergeron). Keon is ahead of Bergeron - clear edge in longevity even if you ignore his WHA years (which you shouldn't - the first two were excellent), having a Conn Smythe run helps (though Bergeron was great in 2011), and Keon was a top ten scorer twice (Bergeron peaked at 18th). Bergeon was likely better defensively though. I think it's close but Keon is, for now, still ahead, unless one places really heavy emphasis on defensive play.
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
2,808
Or just reduce the importance that people are placing on it, period.

I tried to be topical and select Iginla's 2007 Flames. It was in the right direction, but not as illustrative as the more off topic chart below.

2004 PlayerGamesR-ONR-OFFRATIO
Neil821.931.350.43
Havlat681.351.44-0.06
Alfredsson771.261.51-0.17
Hossa811.091.62-0.33
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Presumably, we all disagree with this chart based on sight alone. Stats that are capable of misinforming us to this extent should probably be taken with a grain of salt and not be used as a key instrument in the decision making for this process.

I don’t think anyone has been using single-season R-ON/R-OFF as a key decision making instrument. I certainly wouldn’t. In a larger, multi-season sample, the signal will stand out from the noise more clearly.
 
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Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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I look at Dave Keon and I wonder, what is he that Jonathan Toews or Patrice Bergeron aren't? Is that a fair concern or am I way out to lunch on that comparison?

Descriptions of Keon leave me with the impression that he was an elite defensive player right from the start. In an era where young players generally took some time to make their mark in the NHL, Keon was a 2nd team all-star in his second season. This being a league with centermen Beliveau, Mikita, Richard, Delvecchio, Ullman as established veterans in the prime of their careers.

Bergeron was nowhere close to that level until he'd been in the league for quite a number of years. He's aged very well and carved out a likely Hall of Fame career, but I'm not sure how much, if anything, his 2010 and previous years really contribute to his case. Like Patrick Kane, recency-bias needs to be considered.

Toews was more Keon-esque in his career path. Conn Smythe winner and Selke Trophy candidate after just three seasons. Remains to be seen how well he ages. His play has been somewhat disappointing since the Blackhawks stopped winning Cups. The book is still being written and I think it's premature to consider him Keon's equal at this stage.

Long story short, Keon has a complete career and passage of time with which to evaluate his legacy in a historical context. Active and recently retired players don't. 50 years down the road, Keon is still revered in the annals of Maple Leaf history and hockey in general. I've really never seen anyone who witnessed his career live, regardless of fandom, come out and say they think he's overrated. Usually the opposite. Time will tell what happens to Toews and Bergeron's legacies.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,885
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I look at Dave Keon and I wonder, what is he that Jonathan Toews or Patrice Bergeron aren't? Is that a fair concern or am I way out to lunch on that comparison?

Toews should make the list ahead of a guy like Thornton.But this is just me and my playoff bias speaking.

My point being, even if Keon is Toews, that's still good.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
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I think Savard was a -32 (-8 and -24) actually, but look at the circumstances. Savard was not exactly playing with a defensive dynamo, and particularly the era itself lent itself to some very low minuses. Any Jets success they had during those years can be attributed to offense (particularly the likes of Hawerchuk and possibly Thomas Steen), not defense.

Then you look at McCrimmon's final two seasons (where he was a combined plus 17, not plus 24). That was in the heart of the dead puck era, not the early 80's where I had a few goals just by attending Jet games.

Then there's the merit of plus/minus itself. Kinda iffy at best.

According to Hockey-Reference.com, Savard was -9 and -26 in Winnipeg.

I stated McCrimmon was +24 in his last three seasons. Which he was.

I don't see how era makes a big difference in plus/minus, especially in this case. Comparable teams at comparable ages, one guys (Savard) is a big minus, the other guy (McCrimmon) is a big Plus.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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According to Hockey-Reference.com, Savard was -9 and -26 in Winnipeg.

I stated McCrimmon was +24 in his last three seasons. Which he was.

I don't see how era makes a big difference in plus/minus, especially in this case. Comparable teams at comparable ages, one guys (Savard) is a big minus, the other guy (McCrimmon) is a big Plus.

do we know who their partners were? i know mccrimmon played with pronger some in hartford, but not sure who else he'd have been paired with on the whale, or who he played with in phoenix.

we do know their goalies though.

savard: the staniowski/soetaert tandem, with rookie brian hayward joining the rotation in year two

mccrimmon: sean burke (got vezina/AST votes) and khabibulin (single stray AST vote but generally regarded as a good goalie)
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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According to Hockey-Reference.com, Savard was -9 and -26 in Winnipeg.

I stated McCrimmon was +24 in his last three seasons. Which he was.

I don't see how era makes a big difference in plus/minus, especially in this case. Comparable teams at comparable ages, one guys (Savard) is a big minus, the other guy (McCrimmon) is a big Plus.

Except, Brad McCrimmon never played in the playoffs his last five NHL seasons, even though two of the teams made the playoffs - 1993 Detroit and 1997 Phoenix.

Brad McCrimmon Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Conversely 1981 Serge Savard joined the last overall Winnipeg Jets after their 9-57-14 season and was part of the turnaround that saw the 1981-82 Jets finish 33-33-14 and make the playoffs while allowing 68 fewer goals.

Rather obvious who played the tough minutes-Savard,during their twilight seasons.
 
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Captain Bowie

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Jan 18, 2012
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Toews should make the list ahead of a guy like Thornton.But this is just me and my playoff bias speaking.

My point being, even if Keon is Toews, that's still good.
This is where we are pretty much opposite. Toews is an easy exclusion for me, so if Keon effectively = Toews, he is an easy exclusion as well.

Thornton to me easily makes the list.
 
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Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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Leafs always the Sunday away game after a Saturday home game which skews the numbers.

And as it pertains to individual performances, Bower had an advantage by playing in a platoon situation. Glenn Hall, Jacques Plante, Roger Crozier, NY-era Gump Worsley typically didn't. I know you've done some digging into how often goaltenders started on back-to-back nights, played 3 games in 4 nights, etc. I'd imagine Bower from 1962-63 onward fares quite well in terms of not having to play on short rest.
 

Canadiens1958

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And as it pertains to individual performances, Bower had an advantage by playing in a platoon situation. Glenn Hall, Jacques Plante, Roger Crozier, NY-era Gump Worsley typically didn't. I know you've done some digging into how often goaltenders started on back-to-back nights, played 3 games in 4 nights, etc. I'd imagine Bower from 1962-63 onward fares quite well in terms of not having to play on short rest.

Still plenty of work to do in this regard.

1964-65 seems to be the dividing line.

Major Toronto advantage and this helped Bower, is that the Leafs managed the workload better.
 
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Kyle McMahon

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Russell Bowie League Strength Analysis

As mentioned the other day, player movement was rampant in the first decade of the 20th century. The first pro leagues were popping up (and folding) and leagues were more localized. This is an overview meant to provide context to the strength of competition Russell Bowie faced during his great career.

1899: A teenage rookie, Bowie was 3rd in goals in the CAHL. The Eastern-based talent was all consolidated in this league. The great Winnipeg players Dan Bain (Hall of Famer) and Tony Gingras were in Manitoba.

1900: Bowie was 2nd in goals in the CAHL. He was roughly equal with HOFers Harry Trihey and Bruce Stuart. Again, there were no competing major leagues in the East. Winnipeg players were of course in their own league.

1901: Bowie won the scoring title by a huge margin in this season. Again, talent was consolidated, but the league seems a bit thin in terms of star power. Winnipeg won the Stanley Cup Challenge against the East.

1902: Bowie finished 2nd in the goals race behind Art Hooper, so not as dominant this year. He finished ahead of Bruce Stuart, Jack Marshall, and Rat Westwick. Hall of Famers, but not notably great scorers. Winnipeg was again the challenger, but Dan Bain had retired. Fred Scanlan (HOF) now joined Gingras on that club.

1903: A solid scoring title win over Frank McGee, making his major league debut. Young Tom Phillips also played in the CAHL this season, but Bruce and Hod Stuart had departed for the Western Pennsylvania Pro League.

1904: Another big goal-scoring lead, 27-19 over second place. Things get murky this season. Ottawa and McGee left the league mid-season to join a new league, the FAHL. Jack Marshall and Jimmy Gardner were also in this league with the new Wanderers club. Tom Phillips was in the OHA. The Stuart brothers played with the Portage Lakes barnstorming pro team.

1905: Another 1st place in the scoring race, several goals ahead of his teammate Blair Russell. Art Ross, Moose Johnson, and the Patricks debuted in the CAHL this year. Ottawa and the Wanderers were again in the FAHL. The IPHL featured the Stuarts, along with young Didier Pitre and Bad Joe Hall.

1906: The FAHL folded, and the East was again consolidated in the newly formed ECAHA. Bowie battled with McGee and Harry Smith for the scoring title in a very close three-way race. Several stars remained in the IPHL, Cyclone Taylor now among them.

1907: Ernie Russell won the goal scoring title, narrowly beating Bowie. Both were far ahead of anyone else. Frank McGee had retired. Tom Phillips played with the Kenora Thistles Cup winner this season. Marty Walsh joined the other pros in the last season of the IPHL.

1908: The IPHL folded and several stars returned to Canada. Bowie tied Marty Walsh for the scoring title, Tom Phillips trailing behind them. Newsy Lalonde had entered the ranks of elite players; he played in the OHA this season.

Conclusions.

Bowie's long (for the era) career seemed to bridge two generations. The 1890's stars faded quickly around the turn of the century. 1901 and 1902 appear to be transition seasons, somewhat devoid of other great scorers beyond Bowie.

A new generation of great players began to emerge in 1903, spearheaded by McGee and Phillips. The formation of the FAHL and IPHL for 1904 and 1905 stripped a lot of talent away from the CAHL. In my estimation, this situation mirrors the 1970s era where the NHL had talent leave for the WHA, and there were also all-time great European players. Bowie's league was likely the weakest of the three in these two seasons.

1906 saw a return to a more conventional setup, and gives us a pretty good clue that Bowie and Frank McGee were probably on a equal footing as great scorers, and presumably would have been the previous two years as well, had they competed head to head. This season I would rate the CAHL on par with a typical NHA/PCHA season. 1907 is more or less the same, though McGee retiring and Phillips playing in Kenora undoubtedly removed scoring race competition.

1908 is about as close to a true consolidated season as we find in this time period. It's crucial to Bowie's case that he once again took a scoring title under this setup, tying with Marty Walsh and finishing ahead of Phillips.

Pros for Bowie's case:

-Longevity. Was on par with the last great players of the 19th century when he broke in, and he was on par with stars a decade later as Stanley Cup hockey transitioned from amateur to professional.

-Consistency. Regardless of how strong or weak his competition may have been, Bowie was at the top of the pile. He contended or won the scoring title every single season of his career.

-Teammate support. Bowie, as best as we can tell 100+ years later, did not have his scoring inflated by other great teammates. Blair Russell was the only great linemate he seems to have had. Montreal (AAA), Ottawa and later the Wanderers had superior depth and goaltending. Or at least, their depth players/goaltenders were eventually honored by the Hall of Fame, while Bowie's Victorias were largely a two-man show. In spite of this, they almost always had a winning record.

Cons:

-The raw numbers undoubtedly exaggerate his dominance over his peers. There are seasons where his league might not have even been 2nd-best in the sport.

-We seem to have encountered no evidence thus far that Bowie was anything besides an offensive player. It would be unfair to suspect he was a floater, but we can't really give him credit for anything beyond scoring goals either.

Where does he rank in this group?

In spite of the caveats presented, I believe he is still the best offensive player among this group. If Bowie had played in a modern, consolidated league, I feel it is reasonable to suppose he'd have been a top-5 scorer for the duration of his 10-year career. Crediting him with multiple Art Ross wins might be a stretch, but isn't beyond the realm of plausible either.

I feel that on the low end of things, he is comparable to Peter Stastny. Stastny was a consistently excellent offensive producer in his prime, played on good but not great teams that usually lacked defensive/goaltending support, and while he is generally considered a one-way player in the context of all-time greats, I haven't ever heard that he was outright bad at other aspects of the game. Stastny doesn't seem to have a lot of support for selection to the final list, but in my mind he does have a case as a borderline top 100 guy.

On the high end of the spectrum, Bowie holds his own in a comparison with Joe Malone. Again, most of the same parallels that he has with Stastny exist with Malone. Not a lot of great teammates, not a lot known about his overall game beyond offensive prowess, but that offense was exceptional for many years. Phantom Joe is on our list already, and I feel we treated him appropriately.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
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Since the Norm Ullman bio from 2011 is based on one that I did in 2010, I thought I would look into all the sources I now have, that I didn't nine years ago, for the sake of completeness. I have already posted some highlights from THN. Here are some from annual guides:

These are all from the last 8 years of his career, age 32-39.

Jim Proudfoot Hockey 1969-70 said:
He epitomizes the Toronto hockey system: relentless checking, sharp shooting and clever playmaking after self-made opportunities.

Jim Proudfoot Hockey 1971-72 said:
He placed 3rd in all-star voting, but perhaps even more satisfying, the league's 14 coaches, in a special vote, said Ullman is the best playmaker in the business and is even with teammate Dave Keon as the finest checking forward.

Jim Proudfoot Hockey 1972-73 said:
Last season was Ullman's 17th in the NHL. Were there signs of wear and tear? "Maybe a bit, by the standards Normie's set, but he's still among the best centers in hockey," says coach Johnny McLellan. "You just watch him some night for a whole shift and just see how many smart plays he makes. He's a genius with the puck."

Jim Proudfoot Hockey 1973-74 said:
Coach Johnny McLellan had a brainwave last season and moved veteran Norm Ullman to left wing. Presto, a whole new career opened up for the 37 year old. "Normie had lost just a bit off his skating, and I could sense that playing center had become an awfully big job for him. I happened to need a left winger anyhow, so I thought I'd try him there. We wouldn't lose any of his playmaking ability or his scoring touch, and he wouldn't have to skate as much."

"It added years to my career," said Ullman, who'd always been the hustling, digging type of center. In fact, he's often pointed to as the prototype of the industrious, two-way centreman.

Complete handbook Of Pro Hockey 1973-74 said:
Despite his age, keeps himself in superb physical condition and is one of the best skaters in the NHL... a magician with his stick when close to the net.

World Almanac Guide to Pro Hockey 1974-75 said:
NHL Correspondents' Poll

Most underrated player:

6. Norm Ullman

Best stickhandler:

T-4. Norm Ullman

Hardest worker:

T-8. Norm Ullman

Best defensive forward:

T-6. Norm Ullman

Jim Proudfoot Hockey 1974-75 said:
The secret of his longevity and continuing efficiency? "Work," says Ullman. "My style of game depends on a lot of skating, so I keep my legs in shape. I run every day in the off-season."

Complete Handbook of Pro Hockey 1976-77 said:
Greatly respected by players of all ages... though time has robbed him of his speed, he is still fast enough to jealously hold the puck away from defenders until it's time to give a pass... hardly ever guilty of a turnover."

Jim Proudfoot Hockey 1976-77 said:
Ullman never stopped working after arriving at Edmonton. He was the team's top scorer and his attitude was exemplary... the only thing wrong with Ullman, it seems, is his age... his game demands so much energy that pessimists are expecting him to run out of gas at any time. But Stormin' Norman is well aware of the importance of keeping his legs strong and leads pro hockey joggers in the offseason.

 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,172
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Regina, SK
I’m a little thrown off by Iginla’s 110 and 108 seasons in even-strength VsX. I’m assuming the one is from his 64-59 margin over Naslund in 2001-02, but when else did he register that far above 2nd place?

He was 29 points south of the leader in 2002-03, 11 points in 2003-04, 39 points in 2005-06, 5 points in 2006-07, 10 points in 2007-08, 13 points in 2008-09, 35 points in 2009-10, 6 points in 2010-11, 27 points in 2011-12, and 22 points in 2012-13.

I guess I just can’t figure out another year where he would register as the standard let alone exceed it to the weight of 108.

2008:

Ovechkin 75
Prospal 67
Malkin 66
Iginla 65
Lecavalier 59
Spezza 59
Thornton 59

"the pack" starts at 59.

This is the same way I do defense VsX and playoff VsX.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,915
6,348
Your posts in this round indicate you're trying to be a parody of a rabid Bure fan. Have I got that right?

I think it's a pretty open round. I think Bure stacks up pretty well against many/most of the other guys, but it's been like that with other players too in previous rounds. I haven't had enough time to post longer and/or better or more informative posts this round, so I'll apologize for that.
 
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Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Since the Norm Ullman bio from 2011 is based on one that I did in 2010, I thought I would look into all the sources I now have, that I didn't nine years ago, for the sake of completeness. I have already posted some highlights from THN. Here are some from annual guides:

These are all from the last 8 years of his career, age 32-39.

1973-74 quote about moving Ullman to left wing during the 1972-73 season is priceless, nullifying your efforts since it clearly shows he was a strata or two below the great defensive or two way centers who played center until they retired.

Nighbor from the start of the NHL until the short shift game took over in the mid 1980s saw great defensive centers play center untilo they retired. While Ullman was relegated to a rocking chair on LW, Henri Richard was winning his 1973 SC semi final match-up with Bobby Clarke en route to another SC.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,915
6,348
I think it's a pretty open round. I think Bure stacks up pretty well against many/most of the other guys, but it's been like that with other players too in previous rounds. I haven't had enough time to post longer and/or better or more informative posts this round, so I'll apologize for that.

By the way, a "rabid Bure fan parody" would probably be if I called him a strong two-way player (I don't think he was) or that he would score 100 goals/season in i todays league (I don't think he would, obviously). Bure doesn't need to be a strong two-way player or score 100 goals/season in todays league though to stack up well against Iginla and many/most/all of the other candidates this round, because they've got flaws/aren't perfect too. Iginla had many apparently injury free seasons where he looked pretty mediocre (to put it nicely) from an all-time perspective. I get if you're a career guy though (or think fighting radically changes the course of games on a game/game basis) his case could look better at a superficial glance.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
2008:

Ovechkin 75
Prospal 67
Malkin 66
Iginla 65
Lecavalier 59
Spezza 59
Thornton 59

"the pack" starts at 59.

This is the same way I do defense VsX and playoff VsX.

So basically Spezza (59 points in 76 games), Gaborik (58 points in 77 games), and Heatley (57 points in 71 games) all missing time creates a second cluster of players underneath Iginla rather than bridging the gap, and that is then used as the standard (instead of the players ~10 points under league leader Ovechkin) which boosts Iginla’s 2007-08 number even higher than his 2001-02 number when he actually led the category?

I mean, the decision to assign the standard at 5th place instead of 2nd place in this particular year is the difference between Iginla’s 7-year number being above St. Louis and Stastny or below them.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,779
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
So basically Spezza (59 points in 76 games), Gaborik (58 points in 77 games), and Heatley (57 points in 71 games) all missing time creates a second cluster of players underneath Iginla rather than bridging the gap, and that is then used as the standard (instead of the players ~10 points under league leader Ovechkin) which boosts Iginla’s 2007-08 number even higher than his 2001-02 number when he actually led the category?

I mean, the decision to assign the standard at 5th place instead of 2nd place in this particular year is the difference between Iginla’s 7-year number being above St. Louis and Stastny or below them.

Love cynics.
 

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