Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 20
- Thread starter quoipourquoi
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Kyle McMahon
Registered User
- May 10, 2006
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Savard's R-on of 1.35 over the course of a long playoff career (130+ games) indicate that on whole, his team significantly out-performed their opponents while he was on the ice. So it would seem he usually was able to handle anyone. No doubt that he had lots of help from his teammates in that, but some of those teammates were listed long ago. Trying to suss out how much individual credit he deserves is the key. I don't think he's a must-include, but I do have him in my top 6 out of these remaining candidates at the moment. Opinions seem to be quite varied on him thus far. As I know you observed his career live, I do give your personal opinion some pull here when trying to form my own.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Howe/McCrimmon
plus/minus Howe +400 12th all-time
McCrimmon +448 10th all-time
Robinson/ Savard
plus/minus Savard +462 6th all-time
Robinson +722 1st all-time
Consider the teams they played on.
Howe is to Robinson as McCrimmon is to Savard.
But McCrimmon's plus/minus is even better than Howe's and Savard's is nowhere near Robinson's.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Agreed.
Just have to wonder how many outstanding defensive defensemen could have been comparable in Savard's situation.
When Savard left the Canadiens and played with the Jets for two seasons he was -35.
Brad McCrimmon, in his last three seasons with Hartford and Phoenix, was still +24.
Holecek and statistics:
1964-1965
No stats available at the moment. Kopaná-hokej didn´t publish it at the time unfortunately, and I haven´t checked anything other yet.
1965-1966
1. Nadrchal: 30 games / 71 goals allowed / 708 saves / 0.9089
2. Dzurilla: 36 games / 115 goals allowed / 1131 saves / 0.9077
3. Holeček: 36 games / 129 goals allowed / 1160 saves / 0.8999
WHC 1966
Poster Robert Gordon Orr helped me out with this and published the missing data for Martin, Holmqvist and Konovalenko. So goalies with full statistical account of this championship:
Ken Broderick (CAN): 3 games / 2 goals allowed / 66 saves / 0.9706
Viktor Konovalenko (USSR): 6 games / 7 goals allowed / 95 saves / 0.9314
Seth Martin (CAN): 4 games / 8 goals allowed / 87 saves / 0.9158
Vladimír Dzurilla (CSSR): 6 games / 10 goals allowed / 91 saves / 0.9010
Jiří Holeček (CSSR): 2 games / 5 goals allowed / 31 saves / 0.8611
Leif Holmqvist (SWE): 5 games / 15 goals allowed / 83 saves / 0.8469
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Seth Martin
1st All-Star Team: Seth Martin
1966-1967
1. Nadrchal: 34 games / 90 goals allowed / 878 saves / 0.9070
2. Holeček: 36 games / 119 goals allowed / 1139 saves / 0.9054
3. Hovora: 36 games / 77 goals allowed / 737 saves / 0.9054
WHC 1967
1967-1968
1. Dzurilla: 30 games / 70 goals allowed / 790 saves / 0.9186
2. Termer: 32 games / 98 goals allowed / 1044 saves / 0.9142
3. Hovora: 36 games / 74 goals allowed / 719 saves / 0.9067
(...)
7. Holeček: 33 games / 121 goals allowed / 1055 saves / 0.8971
OG 1968
Holecek did not play.
1968-1969
For this one, I do have stats only for the 1st half of the season. Gól magazine stopped gathering the stats and publishing it due to polical turmoils at the time (August 1968 invasion of Soviet troops to Czechoslovakia...). I planned to go through the game reports and to calculate the rest earlier this year but I haven´t actually found enough time to do that so far. So for what it´s worth, here are the league stats for goalies from September 20, 1968 till November 19, 1968:
1. Svitana: 10 games / 18 goals allowed / 224 saves / 0.9256
2. Termer: 18 games / 49 goals allowed / 540 saves / 0.9168
3. Holeček: 16 games / 53 goals allowed / 461 saves / 0.8969
WHC 1969
Holecek did not play.
1969-1970
1. Dzurilla: 36 games / 79 goals allowed / 1132 saves / 0.9348
2. Holeček: 35 games / 103 goals allowed / 1162 saves / 0.9186
3. Sakáč: 31 games / 66 goals allowed / 639 saves / 0.9064
WHC 1970
Holecek did not play.
1970-1971
1. Sakáč: 24 games / 58 goals allowed / 696 saves / 0.9231
2. Crha: 34 games / 83 goals allowed / 873 saves / 0.9132
3. Nadrchal: 33 games / 79 goals allowed / 813 saves / 0.9114
(...)
6. Holeček: 34 games / 98 goals allowed / 882 saves / 0.9000
WHC 1971
1971-1972
1. Dzurilla: 30 games / 64 goals allowed / 883 saves / 0.9324
2. Holeček: 30 games / 74 goals allowed / 904 saves / 0.9243
3. Kapoun: 25 games / 70 goals allowed / 785 saves / 0.9181
OG 1972, WHC 1972
1972-1973
WHC 1973
1973-1974
WHC 1974
1974-1975
WHC 1975
1975-1976
OG 1976, WHC 1976
1976-1977
CC 1976, WHC 1977
1977-1978
WHC 1978
1964-1965
No stats available at the moment. Kopaná-hokej didn´t publish it at the time unfortunately, and I haven´t checked anything other yet.
1965-1966
1. Nadrchal: 30 games / 71 goals allowed / 708 saves / 0.9089
2. Dzurilla: 36 games / 115 goals allowed / 1131 saves / 0.9077
3. Holeček: 36 games / 129 goals allowed / 1160 saves / 0.8999
WHC 1966
Poster Robert Gordon Orr helped me out with this and published the missing data for Martin, Holmqvist and Konovalenko. So goalies with full statistical account of this championship:
Ken Broderick (CAN): 3 games / 2 goals allowed / 66 saves / 0.9706
Viktor Konovalenko (USSR): 6 games / 7 goals allowed / 95 saves / 0.9314
Seth Martin (CAN): 4 games / 8 goals allowed / 87 saves / 0.9158
Vladimír Dzurilla (CSSR): 6 games / 10 goals allowed / 91 saves / 0.9010
Jiří Holeček (CSSR): 2 games / 5 goals allowed / 31 saves / 0.8611
Leif Holmqvist (SWE): 5 games / 15 goals allowed / 83 saves / 0.8469
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Seth Martin
1st All-Star Team: Seth Martin
1966-1967
1. Nadrchal: 34 games / 90 goals allowed / 878 saves / 0.9070
2. Holeček: 36 games / 119 goals allowed / 1139 saves / 0.9054
3. Hovora: 36 games / 77 goals allowed / 737 saves / 0.9054
WHC 1967
1967-1968
1. Dzurilla: 30 games / 70 goals allowed / 790 saves / 0.9186
2. Termer: 32 games / 98 goals allowed / 1044 saves / 0.9142
3. Hovora: 36 games / 74 goals allowed / 719 saves / 0.9067
(...)
7. Holeček: 33 games / 121 goals allowed / 1055 saves / 0.8971
OG 1968
Holecek did not play.
1968-1969
For this one, I do have stats only for the 1st half of the season. Gól magazine stopped gathering the stats and publishing it due to polical turmoils at the time (August 1968 invasion of Soviet troops to Czechoslovakia...). I planned to go through the game reports and to calculate the rest earlier this year but I haven´t actually found enough time to do that so far. So for what it´s worth, here are the league stats for goalies from September 20, 1968 till November 19, 1968:
1. Svitana: 10 games / 18 goals allowed / 224 saves / 0.9256
2. Termer: 18 games / 49 goals allowed / 540 saves / 0.9168
3. Holeček: 16 games / 53 goals allowed / 461 saves / 0.8969
WHC 1969
Holecek did not play.
1969-1970
1. Dzurilla: 36 games / 79 goals allowed / 1132 saves / 0.9348
2. Holeček: 35 games / 103 goals allowed / 1162 saves / 0.9186
3. Sakáč: 31 games / 66 goals allowed / 639 saves / 0.9064
WHC 1970
Holecek did not play.
1970-1971
1. Sakáč: 24 games / 58 goals allowed / 696 saves / 0.9231
2. Crha: 34 games / 83 goals allowed / 873 saves / 0.9132
3. Nadrchal: 33 games / 79 goals allowed / 813 saves / 0.9114
(...)
6. Holeček: 34 games / 98 goals allowed / 882 saves / 0.9000
WHC 1971
1971-1972
1. Dzurilla: 30 games / 64 goals allowed / 883 saves / 0.9324
2. Holeček: 30 games / 74 goals allowed / 904 saves / 0.9243
3. Kapoun: 25 games / 70 goals allowed / 785 saves / 0.9181
OG 1972, WHC 1972
1972-1973
WHC 1973
1973-1974
WHC 1974
1974-1975
WHC 1975
1975-1976
OG 1976, WHC 1976
1976-1977
CC 1976, WHC 1977
1977-1978
WHC 1978
Last edited:
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
How is Bure average?
In a limited career, he scored 437 goals. That's 5th best all-time for goals per game.
Led the league in short-handed goals twice. 11th all-time but playing way less games than anyone ahead of him.
Even points per game he's 24th. Quite high for anyone not playing in the late 70's or 80's.
A +42 playing with mostly bad teams, +8 in the playoffs also.
An of course his incredible season with Florida in 2000-01 when he scored 59 goals and Viktor Kozlov was 2nd on the team with 14 goals. Think about that one.
Nick Hansen
Registered User
- Sep 28, 2017
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Agreed, also a very strong playoff performer, unlike clowns like Selanne.
I'd rather rank players who made a real impact than guys who just played for an eternity not really achieving much greatness.
Norm Ullman - who cares?
Canadiens1958
Registered User
No one has retired from the NHL rinks undefeated. Lidstrom, Orr, Pronger, Harvey, all ranked much higher had instances or games where they were beaten.
Surpassed by winning moments. Some much more than others.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
I’ll probably give you another five nominees.
trentmccleary
Registered User
Or just reduce the importance that people are placing on it, period.
I tried to be topical and select Iginla's 2007 Flames. It was in the right direction, but not as illustrative as the more off topic chart below.
| 2004 Player | Games | R-ON | R-OFF | RATIO |
| Neil | 82 | 1.93 | 1.35 | 0.43 |
| Havlat | 68 | 1.35 | 1.44 | -0.06 |
| Alfredsson | 77 | 1.26 | 1.51 | -0.17 |
| Hossa | 81 | 1.09 | 1.62 | -0.33 |
Presumably, we all disagree with this chart based on sight alone. Stats that are capable of misinforming us to this extent should probably be taken with a grain of salt and not be used as a key instrument in the decision making for this process.
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
- May 10, 2006
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I certainly agree that this is just one metric among many and shouldn't have any more or less sway than other available statistical data. It's a piece or corroborating evidence, not the basis of a case. Just like conventional +/-, it must be remembered that the number is simultaneously influenced by the actions of five other teammates.
I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater though. We have few enough players under evaluation that we can dig deeper and attempt to explain why an individual candidate might have a certain metric and under what circumstances it came to be. Playoffs (I know you used regular season example, but Hockey Outsider has typically been posting just the playoff data) are a small enough sample that it is not overly time consuming to review individual game logs, or even better, go find the old newspaper accounts or posters' personal recollections to try and determine matchups/deployment details that influenced the statistics.
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
- May 10, 2006
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Even as somebody who is very likely to give Bure an NR this round, I must admit these stats do at least give me pause to consider. 5th all time goals per game with two of his best seasons coming in the heart of the dead puck era is damn impressive.
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
- Jan 16, 2005
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- 14,370
I agree with your point. The R-On/Off data shouldn't be used in isolation. (Same with the other stuff I've been posting, ie VsX and Hart trophy voting shares). They're interesting and useful clues, but they should never be used in isolation. That's also why I've tried (not always - workload permitting) to add commentary to give additional context to the numbers.
In terms of Neil's results - occasionally a depth player will post phenomenal results and will appear to be the best player on their team. This sometimes happens with players getting limited and sheltered minutes (so we have a combination of small sample sizes, which makes it more likely for there to be flukes, and easier-than-average match-ups, which means we don't have an apples-to-apples comparison). When we're comparing top-pairing players who are routinely playing 12-18 minutes at ES per game, generally facing challenging match-ups, we can probably compare them to each other (with the caveats I had before about how no stat is all-encompassing). But I wouldn't use this data to compare Alfredsson to Neil (Andre Roy and Wade Belak are two other players who have, surprisingly, phenomenal results by the metric).
I've been posting the playoff data because that's all I have. I'm sure I had the RS data at some point, but I seem to have lost it. For the most part the data is consistent with what we've expecting, but there have been some exceptions (for example, Brett Hull's playoff results looked a lot stronger than his RS results, based on what a few people commented).
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Among the candidates available this round, his
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2007
- 28,738
- 16,127
player: top ten placements (average of best four seasons)
MSL: 1, 1, 2, 5, 6 (2.25)
stastny: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6 (3.5, or 2.25 in a gretzky/mario-less alternate reality)
blake: 1, 3, 3, 6, 7, 7 (3.25)
abel: 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 (3.5)
bure: 2, 3, 5, 7 (4.25)
ullman: 2, 3, 6, 6, 6, 7, 8, 10 (4.25)
iginla: 1, 3, 6, 8 (4.5)
lindros: 1, 6, 7, 11 (6.25)
keon: ~~~o~
well i'll be, just about exactly average. tbh, i'm surprised. thought he'd be lower than that relative to the pack.
and now that i look at the list i can't believe joe thornton is off the board and MSL and stastny are still here.
ted2019
History of Hockey
ATD Bio for Dave Keon:
8 All star game appearances
Calder Winner, 1961
Conn Smythe winner: 1967
Lady Byng Winner, 1962
WHA Most Gentlemanly Player: 1977, 1979
2nd All-Star team: 2nd in 1962, 1963,
Hart: 4, 6,
Selke: couple years of token consideration way after his prime
Lady Byng: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 6 (this might be the most prolific Byng voting record ever)
All-Star voting: 2, 2, 3, 3, 7, 4 years of a single vote so he clearly was someone’s favorite player
Dave Keon could be a dazzling offensive player, utilizing bursts of speed and deft moves around the net. He also had what is widely considered to be one of the best backhands in the game, a deceptive, often powerful shot that flummoxed opposing goaltenders. He used his agility to avoid opponents' hits and remained injury-free for much of his career. He also used his speed and maneuverability as a pesky penalty killer, covering a large portion of the ice and turning shorthanded situations into scoring chances for his own team. He set a league record for most goals while killing penalties with eight in the 1970-71 season
Joe Pelletier
Stan Fischler, published in Boy’s Life Magazine, February 1964:
Skating:
Keon was very clearly one of the top skaters of his day.
The Toronto Maple Leafs by Mark Stewart:
[qu0te] The smooth skating Toronto center scored 71 of a possible 180 points to win the award [/quote]
Schenectady Journal, November 21, 1980:
As can be seen by his finishes, Keon is a guy whose offensive skill gets underrated by simple top 10s. If you extrapolate out to top 20s, we see that Keon is an 8 time top 18 finisher in goals, a 7 time top 19 finisher in assists, and a 7 time top 20 finisher in points overall. Keon is a good support scorer, but cannot be counted on to carry an offense by himself.
NHL Point finishes:
Goals: 6, 8, 8, 11, 16, 16, 17, 18
Assists: 11, 13, 14, 14, 15, 19, 19
Points: 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 17
The Toronto Maple Leafs by Mark Stewart:
Meriden Journal, September 21, 1970:
Keon was a very good faceoff man. A couple quotes about this are above.
Montreal Gazette, March 3, 1971
Dave Keon was clearly one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL throughout his career. Ultimate Hockey awarded Keon three Retro Selkes during a stretch of years where mostly purely defensive forwards won them, such as Klukay, Pavelich, Provost, Marshall, Westfall (also Mikita was awarded a couple). Many of the defensive skill quotes are above.
Montreal Gazette, March 19, 1971
8 All star game appearances
Calder Winner, 1961
Conn Smythe winner: 1967
Lady Byng Winner, 1962
WHA Most Gentlemanly Player: 1977, 1979
2nd All-Star team: 2nd in 1962, 1963,
Hart: 4, 6,
Selke: couple years of token consideration way after his prime
Lady Byng: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 6 (this might be the most prolific Byng voting record ever)
All-Star voting: 2, 2, 3, 3, 7, 4 years of a single vote so he clearly was someone’s favorite player
Dave Keon could be a dazzling offensive player, utilizing bursts of speed and deft moves around the net. He also had what is widely considered to be one of the best backhands in the game, a deceptive, often powerful shot that flummoxed opposing goaltenders. He used his agility to avoid opponents' hits and remained injury-free for much of his career. He also used his speed and maneuverability as a pesky penalty killer, covering a large portion of the ice and turning shorthanded situations into scoring chances for his own team. He set a league record for most goals while killing penalties with eight in the 1970-71 season
Joe Pelletier
He combined skating and stick handling gifts with superior hockey sense in all zones of the rink, both offensively and defensively.
But Keon was tough in his own way. He was strong though slight, and mastered the art of angling opponents out of harm's way. While no one questioned Keon's heart or toughness, he always preferred to play within the rules. He won the Lady Byng as the NHL's most gentlemanly player in both 1962 and 1963. In fact he averaged only 6 minutes in penalties in each of his NHL seasons.
In a surprise championship, the Leafs captured their 4th Cup of the decade in 1967. Keon's relentless checking and premier faceoff abilities were first and foremost, and he was rewarded with the Conn Smythe Trophy as the league's most valuable playoff performer.
But Keon was tough in his own way. He was strong though slight, and mastered the art of angling opponents out of harm's way. While no one questioned Keon's heart or toughness, he always preferred to play within the rules. He won the Lady Byng as the NHL's most gentlemanly player in both 1962 and 1963. In fact he averaged only 6 minutes in penalties in each of his NHL seasons.
In a surprise championship, the Leafs captured their 4th Cup of the decade in 1967. Keon's relentless checking and premier faceoff abilities were first and foremost, and he was rewarded with the Conn Smythe Trophy as the league's most valuable playoff performer.
Stan Fischler, published in Boy’s Life Magazine, February 1964:
“And that,” says a grateful Imlach, “is why I call Dave Keon the most valuable player in the National Hockey League, the best center, and the most consistent guy in the business.”
Mikita, like Keon, a center and often has been frustrated by Dave’s defensive and offensive prowess.
“Keon is the best center in hockey,” says Maurice Richard, the former Canadiens star whose brother, Henri, competes against Keon for All-Star honors. “He’s a fine checker and terrific puck-carrier. The league hasn’t had a player like him in years.”
The Duff-Keon-Armstrong line has been to the Leafs what Roger Maris, Mickey Mantle, and Whitey Ford have meant to the Yankees in their championship drives.
At the moment, it appears the rise or fall of the Toronto Maple Leafs will be determined by the skill and endurance of Dave Keon. Some observers thought the Leafs revolved around Frank Mahovlich, the big left wing who once valued at 1,000,000 dollars by Jim Norris, the Chicago Blackhawks owner. But last spring, Mahovlich scored no goals and only two assists in the Leafs’ drive for the Stanley Cup. Keon had seven goals and five assists.
“I wouldn’t trade him for Gordie Howe,” says Imlach.
Mikita, like Keon, a center and often has been frustrated by Dave’s defensive and offensive prowess.
“Keon is the best center in hockey,” says Maurice Richard, the former Canadiens star whose brother, Henri, competes against Keon for All-Star honors. “He’s a fine checker and terrific puck-carrier. The league hasn’t had a player like him in years.”
The Duff-Keon-Armstrong line has been to the Leafs what Roger Maris, Mickey Mantle, and Whitey Ford have meant to the Yankees in their championship drives.
At the moment, it appears the rise or fall of the Toronto Maple Leafs will be determined by the skill and endurance of Dave Keon. Some observers thought the Leafs revolved around Frank Mahovlich, the big left wing who once valued at 1,000,000 dollars by Jim Norris, the Chicago Blackhawks owner. But last spring, Mahovlich scored no goals and only two assists in the Leafs’ drive for the Stanley Cup. Keon had seven goals and five assists.
“I wouldn’t trade him for Gordie Howe,” says Imlach.
Skating:
Keon was very clearly one of the top skaters of his day.
The Toronto Maple Leafs by Mark Stewart:
Opponents had to keep an eye on Dave Keon. He was a swift and tricky skater who loved to flash toward the net and catch goalies by surprise.
Emile Francis in Boy’s Life:
He lets the defenseman think he’s skating as fast as he can but Dave’s really in low gear. Then like a bullet he’ll jump into high gear and leave everyone standing still.
Montreal Gazette, March 19th, 1971:
And Keon placed second in two other categories…and the Bruins Orr is the superior skater in the league.
The Pittsburgh Press, May 8 1962:
[qu0te] The smooth skating Toronto center scored 71 of a possible 180 points to win the award [/quote]
Schenectady Journal, November 21, 1980:
He still shows flashes of the great speed that was his trademark so many years ago.
Offensive ability:
As can be seen by his finishes, Keon is a guy whose offensive skill gets underrated by simple top 10s. If you extrapolate out to top 20s, we see that Keon is an 8 time top 18 finisher in goals, a 7 time top 19 finisher in assists, and a 7 time top 20 finisher in points overall. Keon is a good support scorer, but cannot be counted on to carry an offense by himself.
NHL Point finishes:
Goals: 6, 8, 8, 11, 16, 16, 17, 18
Assists: 11, 13, 14, 14, 15, 19, 19
Points: 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 17
The Toronto Maple Leafs by Mark Stewart:
…one of the best backhand shots in the NHL.
Meriden Journal, September 21, 1970:
Dave Keon, Toronto’s most consistent scorer in the National Hockey League during the last 10 years…
Bangor Daily News, April 7, 1971:
Toronto depends on the goaltending of Jacques Plante and Bernie Parent with centers Norm Ullman and Dave Keon the chief scoring threats.
The Sun, May 3, 1967
Keon was instrumental in leading the Leafs to their fourth cup championship in six years. He scored three goals and added five assists in the 12 games the Leafs played…
Faceoff ability:
Keon was a very good faceoff man. A couple quotes about this are above.
Montreal Gazette, March 3, 1971
I remember Dave Keon won the draw against me so clean that he put it into his own net.
Defensive ability:
Dave Keon was clearly one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL throughout his career. Ultimate Hockey awarded Keon three Retro Selkes during a stretch of years where mostly purely defensive forwards won them, such as Klukay, Pavelich, Provost, Marshall, Westfall (also Mikita was awarded a couple). Many of the defensive skill quotes are above.
Montreal Gazette, March 19, 1971
Dave Keon and Norm Ullman received the same amount of support and tied for first place when the coaches were asked to name the best checker in hockey. And Keon placed second in twoo other categories. According to the coaches, only Derek Sanderson is better at killing penalties…
ChiTownPhilly
Not Too Soft
Yeah- not surprising, I suppose. There's very good sound-wave carry here in the chamber. But let's get this out of the way now, before we get too far off the path...
It's long past time to put the lie to the canard that BERNIE PARENT had an exceptional Peak and scant else that would be of consequence in a Top-100 discussion. A look at Bernie Parent year-by-year suffices to illustrate that he's more-than-worthy of immediate consideration this Round.
1965-66: Breaks into the league 6 months before his 21st birthday, for Boston- in the waning stages of the O-6 competition-furnace. Boston breaks the counter for shots allowed- over 200 more than the next worst team(s). Welcome to the show, rookie! Save percentage is .898. Nothing special-sounding... but keep in mind that the collective rest-of-Boston clocked in at .882.
1966-67: Weirdly cycled between Boston and the Oklahoma farm-team. The plurality of the minutes go to journeyman Eddie Johnston. One would have to conclude that Cheevers (who was also rotated out to the Sooner State) adjusted to the prairie-shuttle better than Parent, as he outperforms Bernie this season, nosing ahead on the depth-chart.
Boston decides their future lay with Cheevers, and expose Parent in the expansion draft, setting up perhaps the last and most interesting 'what-if' we're likely to contemplate before we bid farewell to the Project.
1967-68: First year in freshly-minted expansion Philadelphia. As a team, fellow nominee Johnny Bower's Toronto team leads the league in Save %-- but 22-year-old Bernie Parent's Flyers are 2nd in the league in that stat. In the First Round of the playoffs, Philadelphia falls to St Louis, but Bernie Saves at a .963 clip, perhaps providing a harbinger of what can be expected from the future of 'Playoff Parent.'
1968-69: Another year, another Team 2nd place in Save %. The only individuals to outperform Parent in that stat are these guys named Plante & Hall.
1969-70: Second among starters in Save %, trailing well-known Regular-Season Beast Tony Esposito. Philadelphia cultivates credible back-up in Doug Favell, who will play a role in our story next season...
1970-71: This is the season where Philadelphia decides that Doug Favell will serve adequately as an NHL-starter, and (knowing that Parent is the hotter property) trades him to Toronto. It is only by the standards one would attach to Bernie Parent that this could be considered a disappointing season, falling out of the top-10 in Save % (but still .014 above league average). At this point, a canny observer would surmise that one gets the very best out of Parent if he's spared the mid-season disruptions.
1971-72: More of the same- splitting time with Plante and finishing .014 above league-average in Save %. Toronto, doing what comes naturally to them when it comes to contract matters, leaves Parent receptive to the siren-call of the WHA.
1972-73: Parent's "other" Philadelphia year- the Blazers of the WHA. We're all pretty hard-wired to discount WHA performances... but maybe we shouldn't discount this one so much- since what little evidence we have shows that Parent faced "a barrage of shots" [sourced: Wikipedia] and was no worse than the second most effective goalie in the upstart circuit (and perhaps better than that). Then, something curious happened... evidently, Parent's paycheck delivery was interrupted- shortly after the start of their opening playoff round. Parent, applying what little leverage he had, exited the team. The Blazers responded with a suspension- and in the aftermath, his WHA-rights were shifted from one franchise of dubious solvency to another. Meanwhile, in the NHL's parallel but less entropic universe, Toronto traded Parent's NHL-rights back to the Flyers- and with regards to career-certainty, saved Bernie Parent from a murky future.
And, as long as we've mentioned "saving," Parent would more than square the account when it came to the act of "saving."
What follows the next two years should need no explanation to anyone who takes this project with modest seriousness. It is, quite simply, the finest two year period of sustained goaltending excellence in the entire century-plus history of the Sport.
After this, Fate intervened- not tragically as in the case of Gardiner, or cruelly as in the case of Ace Bailey, but capriciously inasmuch as a neck injury resulted in Parent's shut-down from the start of the season until towards the end of February. Not really regaining form that year, the Flyers '76 playoff run proceeded gamely on with Wayne Stephenson, until it was steamrolled by the dawn of (still) the most recent iteration of Dynasty Montreal.
1976-77: Bernie Parent, working at trying to get back to Bernie Parent performance-standards, has perhaps his least effective year since the farm-carousel year. He doesn't even achieve .900 in Save %... but he's still .010 ahead of league-average that season. Roy's had a few Colorado-years less impressive than that.
1977-78: Consulting once more with The Grandmaster, Plante, Parent returns to form in 1977-78, leading the league in shutouts, and finishing behind only K. Dryden & T. Esposito in Save %, all while The Bullies continue to easily top the league in Power Play Opportunities Against.
If one could retroactively engage the modern stat "High Danger Scoring Chances Denied" percentage, then Parent's greatness would be even more manifest than it already is.
Unfortunately, the Wheel of Misfortune had the final word in this tale, as Bernie Parent's career ends with his eye injury. Happily, though, his place in Hockey History is unassailable, or at least should be by any rights that matter.
I'm not a native to the Delaware Valley... I'm a migrant. Still, ask a Philly Hockey fan of a certain age (say, an age where they will have seen the Flyers' entire history while it happened) who the Greatest Flyer of Them All was, they'd say Clarke. No controversy there. Ask them to name their second on that list, and it's more probable that they'd cite Bernie Parent than Lindros or Mark Howe. They wouldn't be wrong.
Now, I believe that Lindros deserves consideration this Round. He deserved consideration last Round. But, a better option than Bernie Parent he ain't.
If nothing else, hopefully, I've taken the unconscionable cowflop that Bernie Parent's top-100 credentials are his two Peak seasons and little else with which we need to concern ourselves, and sent that steaming pile of bullshit off to bed (without supper).
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sr edler
gold is not reality
- Mar 20, 2010
- 11,885
- 6,326
Not surprised to see Bure rank above Iginla here, he was also better away from the puck and a better hitter.
Schenectady Journal, November 21, 1980:
He still shows flashes of the great speed that was his trademark so many years ago.
Offensive ability:
As can be seen by his finishes, Keon is a guy whose offensive skill gets underrated by simple top 10s. If you extrapolate out to top 20s, we see that Keon is an 8 time top 18 finisher in goals, a 7 time top 19 finisher in assists, and a 7 time top 20 finisher in points overall. Keon is a good support scorer, but cannot be counted on to carry an offense by himself.
NHL Point finishes:
Goals: 6, 8, 8, 11, 16, 16, 17, 18
Assists: 11, 13, 14, 14, 15, 19, 19
Points: 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 17
The Toronto Maple Leafs by Mark Stewart:
…one of the best backhand shots in the NHL.
Meriden Journal, September 21, 1970:
Dave Keon, Toronto’s most consistent scorer in the National Hockey League during the last 10 years…
Bangor Daily News, April 7, 1971:
Toronto depends on the goaltending of Jacques Plante and Bernie Parent with centers Norm Ullman and Dave Keon the chief scoring threats.
The Sun, May 3, 1967
Keon was instrumental in leading the Leafs to their fourth cup championship in six years. He scored three goals and added five assists in the 12 games the Leafs played…
Faceoff ability:
Keon was a very good faceoff man. A couple quotes about this are above.
Montreal Gazette, March 3, 1971
I remember Dave Keon won the draw against me so clean that he put it into his own net.
Defensive ability:
Dave Keon was clearly one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL throughout his career. Ultimate Hockey awarded Keon three Retro Selkes during a stretch of years where mostly purely defensive forwards won them, such as Klukay, Pavelich, Provost, Marshall, Westfall (also Mikita was awarded a couple). Many of the defensive skill quotes are above.
Montreal Gazette, March 19, 1971
Dave Keon and Norm Ullman received the same amount of support and tied for first place when the coaches were asked to name the best checker in hockey. And Keon placed second in twoo other categories. According to the coaches, only Derek Sanderson is better at killing penalties…
[/QUOTE]Appreciate the effort and Keon was a fine player but top 20 in scoring in basically a 6 team league for most of his NHL career doesn't really help his case.
As has been pointed out above is he really a better player than Bergeron, Toewes or Kopitar who in all probability aren't top 100 players?
His offense was more limited by his skillset( not being an elite playmaker) than any systematic problems in Toronto.
I think this gets to the crux of why I am leaving Iginla off my list even though he made my R1 list. I don’t think Bure was better away from the puck and a better hitter, I’d say they are even, but I do believe Bure brought it more consistently. Iginla could fall asleep thru stretches of the season too frequently.
I do think Bure’s assit totals were depressed in Florida due to the lack of talent around him. Iggy faced that in his early Flames days as well I’d say.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I mean yeah, what a peak advantage Pavel Bure has over Norm Ullman, right? 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th in points compared to 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 6th.
Then when you consider Bure's defensive impact, he's a slum dunk, hey?
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
....and he's got the 2nd best offensive numbers in this round (best if you consider things like even strength and relative lack of PP time).... and he's still just in a mashup for 6th-10th for you??
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
- Jan 16, 2005
- 9,130
- 14,370
I was much higher on Bower than others appear to be. I had him close to 70 on my initial list, which I now think was too high, but I still think he deserves a serious look for the last six spots.
The thing that had always impressed me about Bower is he put up great personal stats, while also contributing to significant team success. From a personal standpoint, he led the NHL in save percentage six times in a span of eight years (and was a decimal place away from doing this a seventh time in nine years). The only other goalie in NHL who's led the league in save percentage so consistently, for so many years, is Hasek.
From a team success standpoint, Bower won four Stanley Cups, three as a starter. He had great numbers and (for what it's worth) was awarded the 1963 "retro" Conn Smythe trophy. In 1964 he helped the Leafs come back from a 3-2 deficit by holding the Habs to one goal over games 6 and 7 (stopping 38 of 39 shots); then shutting out Detroit in game 7 the next series to win the Cup (33 save shutout).
The two main issues with him are games played and awards recognition. His relatively low games played are a result of him not becoming an NHL regular until age 34 (!), and generally being a goalie in a platoon situation. I have no response to the first point; much like Martin St. Louis, his late start should be (and I would argue already has been) used against him. But "platoon" situations weren't uncommon in his day. In the 1960's, he was actually 2nd in games played (to Hall). Looking at the "goals saved above average" method, which weighs save percentage and games played, despite often sharing the workload with others, he still led the NHL based on this metric three times (and was second five more times).
The other issue (and I think I had forgotten about this when I put together my initial list) is he didn't get a lot of personal recognition. He was a first-team all-star in 1961 (and runner-up for the Hart trophy), but was never again a year-end all-star (remember that pre-1982, the Vezina trophy is a team statistical award, essentially the same as the Jennings trophy today). It's damaging for his case that even in his other really strong seasons where he played lots of games (1960; 1964; 1966; 1968), he never earned a year-end all-star spot, finishing 3rd, 3rd, 4th, and out of the top three (one of those years we just have the top three in voting).
Comparing him to Esposito, Tony-O dwarfs Bower in regular season career value. Bower was a bit better per game, but Esposito has close to another decade of strong play. Bower has a much better playoff resume though.
The thing that had always impressed me about Bower is he put up great personal stats, while also contributing to significant team success. From a personal standpoint, he led the NHL in save percentage six times in a span of eight years (and was a decimal place away from doing this a seventh time in nine years). The only other goalie in NHL who's led the league in save percentage so consistently, for so many years, is Hasek.
From a team success standpoint, Bower won four Stanley Cups, three as a starter. He had great numbers and (for what it's worth) was awarded the 1963 "retro" Conn Smythe trophy. In 1964 he helped the Leafs come back from a 3-2 deficit by holding the Habs to one goal over games 6 and 7 (stopping 38 of 39 shots); then shutting out Detroit in game 7 the next series to win the Cup (33 save shutout).
The two main issues with him are games played and awards recognition. His relatively low games played are a result of him not becoming an NHL regular until age 34 (!), and generally being a goalie in a platoon situation. I have no response to the first point; much like Martin St. Louis, his late start should be (and I would argue already has been) used against him. But "platoon" situations weren't uncommon in his day. In the 1960's, he was actually 2nd in games played (to Hall). Looking at the "goals saved above average" method, which weighs save percentage and games played, despite often sharing the workload with others, he still led the NHL based on this metric three times (and was second five more times).
The other issue (and I think I had forgotten about this when I put together my initial list) is he didn't get a lot of personal recognition. He was a first-team all-star in 1961 (and runner-up for the Hart trophy), but was never again a year-end all-star (remember that pre-1982, the Vezina trophy is a team statistical award, essentially the same as the Jennings trophy today). It's damaging for his case that even in his other really strong seasons where he played lots of games (1960; 1964; 1966; 1968), he never earned a year-end all-star spot, finishing 3rd, 3rd, 4th, and out of the top three (one of those years we just have the top three in voting).
Comparing him to Esposito, Tony-O dwarfs Bower in regular season career value. Bower was a bit better per game, but Esposito has close to another decade of strong play. Bower has a much better playoff resume though.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
ES VsX Summary
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]
ES VsX attempts to put all players on a more even playing field. Raw points (and by extension, VsX) can be skewed by players getting an inordinately high or low number of PP opportunities.
Norm Ullman, unsurprisingly, is far up at the head of the class - he's almost as much ahead of Lindros in 7 year scores as Lindros is ahead of Bure.
Lindros, considering games missed, does remarkably well - on a per-game basis he'd certainly be the best here.
I expected Keon to do better - I thought that once easy PP points were removed he'd start to look more even with the rest of the pack, but I guess these are some elite producers any way you slice it.
Edit: added Toe Blake, as I had forgotten that ES/PP/SH stats now go back beyond the start of his career. He does decidedly worse than anyone aside from Keon - it's important to note that I do not have a WW2 fudge in the ES numbers (yet) so he would do a little worse if that was done; however, he didn't exactly pad his ES numbers in 43, 44, and 45 either so I don't want to overstate the impact it'd have. He'd still rank exactly where he does now.
| Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th | 7yr | 10yr |
| Norm Ullman | 128 | 110 | 98 | 96 | 95 | 92 | 88 | 86 | 86 | 83 | 101.0 | 96.2 |
| Eric Lindros | 115 | 100 | 100 | 97 | 97 | 84 | 77 | 67 | 63 | 52 | 95.7 | 85.2 |
| Jarome Iginla | 110 | 108 | 95 | 90 | 90 | 84 | 82 | 80 | 75 | 73 | 94.1 | 88.7 |
| Martin St. Louis | 100 | 97 | 97 | 94 | 93 | 88 | 86 | 83 | 75 | 72 | 93.6 | 88.5 |
| Pater Stastny | 110 | 107 | 98 | 95 | 83 | 82 | 74 | 64 | 62 | 58 | 92.7 | 83.3 |
| Pavel Bure | 122 | 100 | 93 | 84 | 84 | 75 | 60 | 60 | 60 | 46 | 88.3 | 78.4 |
| Toe Blake | 100 | 100 | 92 | 82 | 82 | 78 | 76 | 72 | 67 | 61 | 81.0 | 81.0 |
| Dave Keon | 98 | 81 | 76 | 75 | 74 | 70 | 69 | 68 | 68 | 65 | 77.6 | 74.4 |
ES VsX attempts to put all players on a more even playing field. Raw points (and by extension, VsX) can be skewed by players getting an inordinately high or low number of PP opportunities.
Norm Ullman, unsurprisingly, is far up at the head of the class - he's almost as much ahead of Lindros in 7 year scores as Lindros is ahead of Bure.
Lindros, considering games missed, does remarkably well - on a per-game basis he'd certainly be the best here.
I expected Keon to do better - I thought that once easy PP points were removed he'd start to look more even with the rest of the pack, but I guess these are some elite producers any way you slice it.
Edit: added Toe Blake, as I had forgotten that ES/PP/SH stats now go back beyond the start of his career. He does decidedly worse than anyone aside from Keon - it's important to note that I do not have a WW2 fudge in the ES numbers (yet) so he would do a little worse if that was done; however, he didn't exactly pad his ES numbers in 43, 44, and 45 either so I don't want to overstate the impact it'd have. He'd still rank exactly where he does now.
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