Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 20

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Procedure
    • You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
    • The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
    • A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

    Eligible Voters
    • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
    • Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

    Guidelines
    • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
    • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
    • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
    • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

    House Rules
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

    The actual voting period will open up on Friday, March 29th at midnight and continue through Sunday, March 31st at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, April 1st.


    Vote 20 Candidates
    • Bernie Parent
    • Brian Leetch
    • Dave Keon
    • Eddie Gerard
    • Eric Lindros
    • Erik Karlsson
    • Jarome Iginla
    • Jiri Holecek
    • Johnny Bower
    • Mark Howe
    • Martin St. Louis
    • Norm Ullman
    • Pavel Bure
    • Peter Stastny
    • Russell Bowie
    • Serge Savard
    • Sid Abel
    • Toe Blake
    • Tony Esposito
    • Valeri Vasiliev
     
  2. vadim sharifijanov ugh

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  3. MXD Original #4

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    ... And Player 86 has landed.
     
  4. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Hart trophy shares (5% voting share minimum)

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
    Eric Lindros11114
    Tony Esposito11114
    Jarome Iginla213
    Martin St. Louis112
    Sid Abel112
    Bernie Parent112
    Norm Ullman112
    Johnny Bower112
    Mark Howe112
    Pavel Bure112
    Dave Keon112
    Toe Blake11
    Erik Karlsson11
    Brian Leetch0
    Peter Stastny0
    Serge Savard0
    I've listed the 16 players who spent all (or substantially all) of their careers in NHL - Russell Bowie, Eddie Gerard, Jiri Holocek and Valeri Vasiliev are excluded.

    Carried forward from last round - note that in 2002, Jarome Iginla tied for the Hart trophy, but he lost it to Jose Theodore, who had more first-place votes. This is the only time where I'm breaking a tie in the Hart trophy data that I've been presenting.

    Carried forward from last round - Peter Stastny being the only forward here without any "significant" Hart seasons doesn't look great. But keep in mind that he received Hart votes five times in his career. He had the misfortune of peaking at the same time and Gretzky, and voters only had three spots on their ballot each year - so it was tough for another offensive forward to fight for the last two votes.

    Trivia - the only players with 3+ "significant" Hart seasons, WWII to today, who aren't yet up for discussion - Rod Langway, Doug Gilmour, Markus Naslund, Claude Giroux, and Ryan Getzlaf.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  5. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    VsX summary

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th10th7YR10YR
    Martin St. Louis108105.310089.586.279.378.376.372.767.392.486.3
    Norm Ullman10010094.492.385.777.876.275.872.57289.584.7
    Peter Stastny10098.394.686.584.780.774.171.361.256.688.480.8
    Sid Abel10010092.490.776.876.27573.358.314.887.375.8
    Jarome Iginla106.792.586.983.982.580.97470.169.168.686.781.5
    Toe Blake106.885.983.783.383.381.979.47572.762.186.381.4
    Pavel Bure 100.0 98.9 95.8 89.2 76.7 74.3 61.4 51.7 50.5 28.8 85.2 72.7
    Eric Lindros10095.886.981.180.87872.562.85150.78576
    Erik Karlsson92.185.180.479.876.760.845.524.623.974.356.9
    Dave Keon84.476.974.372.672.170.269.269.160.258.274.370.7
    Brian Leetch87.982.376.571.670.865.861.158.658.654.973.768.8
    Mark Howe67.258.25453.748.147.343.842.236.127.353.247.8
    Serge Savard49.64039.538.537.5362928.419.817.938.633.6
    Pavel Bure is the only new candidate on this list - the other four are goalies and/or spent their career outside of the NHL.

    For those curious, there are still two more players with 7-year scores of 90+ who aren't up for voting - Sweeney Schriner and Adam Oates.

    Carried forward from last round - Two listed players are active - Kane and Karlsson. Kane is having an excellent season (currently 3rd in scoring) and if he holds off, his 7-year and 10-year scores would jump to approximate 92 and 86 respectively. Karlsson isn't having a great year by his standards, and his 7-year score won't change, but his 10-year score should increase to about 61. (Pretty amazing that he already matches Leetch's 7-yr score, though the American has him beat on longevity and playoffs).
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  6. Kyle McMahon Registered User

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    Glad we'll get to at least discuss Russell Bowie for the sake of historical completeness.
     
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  7. seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    So, Parent, Holecek, Bower, Bowie, and Bure? yawn... all the interesting top-100 candidates were added last round.
     
  8. seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    It's not. Or at least it's not meant to be. For one thing, I prefer Kane to Toews. I just think what Kane (and Keith) bring is a little less replaceable, a little more unique for their position. And Kane shouldn't have to be on Toews' line to outperform the team's differential. his R-off is influenced slightly more by the combined TOI of the 3rd and 4th lines, than the Toews line, so all he had to do was outperform the average of those, and he didn't do that.

    You're right, of course. My bad...

    That's true of course, we cannot be 100% certain that it wasn't just a misdirection.

    Just curious, can anyone in here say that these single video clips that C1958 uses to try to disprove contemporary accounts and paint a player a certain way, have ever really compelled them? Have you ever looked at them and thought, "that must be how every play in their career must have gone", as opposed to "that was one play of thousands that they participated in"?

    My goal was never to "dismiss" him but to temper the enthusiasm surrounding his offensive results. You're right that Howe didn't seem to have a major impact on his numbers until their last two seasons together.



    I don't mind playing the "what if" game with guys who went off to war, but let me remind you again: 16 seasons with a 60 VsX score to 8. Six seasons with 80+ to four. Abel scored a 58 the year before he left, and a 68 when he came back. What exactly do you project he would have accomplished offensively during those three years at 25, 26, 27?

    This is why adjusted +/- is so useful. Instead of cherrypicking one or two seasons we think a player performed greatly or poorly, we can actually quantify how much they impacted the team's goal differential. Ullman had a few excellent seasons in Detroit by this metric, and a couple decent ones, and in the end was just a -19 (adjusted) over the course of eight seasons, with Gordie Howe's line as his main off-ice comparable. When in Toronto, despite being older, he showed what kind of figures he could put up without a generational talent on another line, and was a +55 over 8 seasons.

    Anyone who was ten or more years younger than Ullman got to play their entire career in that environment, and you're concerned about giving him credit for what he did from age 32-39 in that environment?


    That's not what I mean. By stature, I mean "having such status that you are up for discussion in the later stages of a top-100 project". I'm comparing him not to what I expect Eric Lindros to have accomplished, I'm comparing him to what I expect a top-100 player to have accomplished.
     
  9. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Might as well post my third and final "standard" post now - playoff R-on/R-off. Not much to talk about since only one new player qualifies - Pavel Bure.

    SeasonGames R ON R OFFINCREASE
    1991-9213 1.50 1.389%
    1992-9312 1.00 1.17-14%
    1993-9424 1.38 1.40-1%
    1994-9511 0.89 0.6244%
    1999-004 0.50 0.500%

    Mixed results. He played well in 1994, but was at almost exactly the same level as the rest of his team. For his career (overall), his level of performance in the postseason is almost identical to Iginla (but he put up the same results on much stronger teams on average).

    The overall summary (with all the commentary being found in the previous thread):

    PLAYERGAMESR-ONR-OFF RATIO
    Mark Howe101 1.54 0.87 0.76
    Dave Keon92 1.24 0.74 0.67
    Erik Karlsson48 1.19 0.77 0.54
    Peter Stastny93 0.97 0.75 0.29
    Jarome Iginla81 1.13 0.94 0.21
    Brian Leetch95 1.02 0.88 0.15
    Eric Lindros53 1.18 1.12 0.05
    Pavel Bure64 1.14 1.09 0.05
    Martin St. Louis107 1.01 1.02 -
    Serge Savard130 1.35 1.38- 0.02
    Norm Ullman87 0.73 0.79- 0.08
     
  10. Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Try to understand video analysis. Mike Farkas , myself, a few others do.

    There are aspects of a players game that contemporary media, newspapers do not touch mainly because they could not see them from the catwalk at the arena.

    Prime example when a video of Howie Morenz was presented for consideration, participants commented on his strong skating and edge work. This was not done by Morenz specifically for the video. A player does not change his skating unless injured. So it is reasonable to conclude that a player skated that way all the time. Example of an injury influencing skating is Saku Koivu who lost some lateral mobility after his first knee injury.

    Norm Ullman. Years ago before the short shift game, the center was the prime forechecker. The great forecheckers varied their arcs, angles, depth so that they could get back. Otherwise savy defencemen would get in their way creating an odd man situation the other way. Should not happen to an 11 year veteran. Happened multiple times with Ullman in the hilites of the game shown and during his career. Other videos are out there from other games showing the same mistake.
     
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  11. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    Interesting to see Bower and Parent, I had 4 goalies between Esposito and those two on my goalie list, Lundqvist, Luongo, Worters and Tiny Thompson. (none made my top 120)
     
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  12. Dr John Carlson Light is all over us

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    4 of the 5 new candidates go directly to the bottom of the list for me (or near it). Holecek is a bit more interesting but I think I may have overrated him on my round 1 list after further reading.

    Bowie is interesting too... I ranked Tommy Phillips on my R1 list but not Bowie. Curious to see his case.
     
  13. ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    And that's, like... a good thing, right?!
     
  14. Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Further, to the use of videos and Norm Ullman.

    1964 SC Finals game 1,going into OT but Wings are on the PP.



    Norm Ullman,last man back at the Leaf blue line. Does the game go to OT?

    Watch 2+ minutes. GWG at 19:58, 3rd period by Bob Pulford.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  15. wetcoast Registered User

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    I'm really surprised at seeing Parent here and even Bure to an extent.

    That being said I can't see either player getting a ton of traction.
     
  16. Kyle McMahon Registered User

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    My gut instinct when going down the list and asking myself "is this guy a top 100 player" found me answering "yes" for Leetch, Keon, Gerard, Abel, and Savard. With two newcomers Bowie and Holocek to be determined.

    Parent doesn't do it for me. Was he really even a better-than-average NHL starter for more than five or six seasons? Just not long enough, even with the two Cup-winning Smythe runs.

    Bower isn't a great deal different in my eyes. Only hitting the 50 GP threshold five times in a career that long doesn't exactly scream top 100 player of all time.

    Bure is an easy no. I'm not sure if Patrick Kane would have found my ballot in this round if he were still available, and surely he's passed Bure by now.
     
  17. seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Patent was always above average. He had very good save percentagpe all the time. Not only that, he faced a ton of power plays so that likely underrates him. However, he did only have two seasons worthy of this list.
     
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  18. blogofmike Registered User

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    Bernie Parent can't make a great longevity case. But he can make a stellar peak case.

    In 1974 Parent shared a Vezina with Tony O. The Flyers had the most PP opportunities against (422). Esposito's Chicago Blackhawks had the least (208). Flyer penalties made life difficult for their goalie. Parent maintained league leads in GAA and save percentage. Given the degree of difficulty of having a difficult high PK situation, Parent may have knocked more GA off the board during his short prime than Esposito did over his very long one.

    EDIT: @seventieslord beat me to it. I blame Canadian Club
     
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  19. zffssk On Break

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    Now that playoff chokers like Joe Thornton are part of the list, I hope the players who contributed to multiple championships will have their turn.

    Eddie Gerard, Serge Savard and Dave Keon will likely form my Top 3.All key players to dynasties.

    I'm extremely tempted to put Russell Bowie inside my Top 5 for the sake of historical completeness; his generation paved the way.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  20. ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    We've advanced worse options. But then, we've also left better ones on the cutting-room floor, so-to-speak.
    Yeah, you're probably right about him not getting much traction. But he deserves a hearing, all the same. I'm happy that Parent was honored by 'NHL-Top-100,' even if some think that puts him more in the company of Jonathan Toews and Mike Gartner than in the company of Syl Apps and Charlie Gardiner. I'm happy because he earned it- and it shouldn't be particularly controversial.
    And that's the ONE thing with which I'm struggling- even though I've sort of made the point elsewhere. Thornton was breveted last Round- comfortably, even... while in the meantime, back around the pipes, Tony Esposito was used for target-practice. I don't understand sky-high on Thornton and abysmally down on Tony O as a thought-process. It's Lovecraft/City of R'lyeh/non-Euclidian Geometry stuff. [Again, to clarify, I thought I was maintaining consistency by feeling not particularly moved by either.]

    We'll have a deeper look into matters this Round. Dave Keon missed by a hair- and is lauded, not without reason, as a playoff god. In a parallel manner, we have Bernie Parent, who, as much as any individual in my lifetime this side of Big-Four divinity Mario Lemieux (not even excepting Crosby), was personally responsible for back-to-back Stanley Cup celebrations. How much does that count for? Maybe not enough.

    I'll tell you this, though- when I was making my Prelim List, I (for one) thought it should count for something.
     
  21. sr edler whom

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    Bowie is a hard player to evaluate even within his own era. Some of the reports on him gives me Selänne vibes, and not the good ones (linemate chemistry, passing game) but the opposite (opportunistic scorer).

    Bure I like, of course. That's probably not a secret around here...
     
  22. DN28 Registered User

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    Vasiliev, part 2, 1979-1982

    This is the continuation of my Saturday´s post on Vasiliev, his possibilities and hypotheticals with him in the NHL, and just a general overview of the situation with European defensemen during Valeri´s career.

    I´ve stopped before 1979. This was probably the best season of Vasiliev´s career, no one can argue that there was some better d-man outside NHL than him in this instance. At the end of the season, the Soviet hockey federation and the newspaper Izvestia decided to conduct a poll to determine the best hockey player in Europe, so called 'Izvestia Golden Stick' for the 1st time, and Vasiliev was voted as 2nd best player only behind Mikhailov, ahead of Kharlamov, Makarov, Tretiak.. and all the other non-Soviet players as well. Since the entire top 6 was occupied by Soviets exclusively, 'Futbol-Khokkey' magazine did not bother to conduct their yearly SPOTY voting and simply accept this one instead.

    Vasiliev became the Directoriate´s choice for best d-man and also appeared on the WHC all-star team alongside Bubla. Bubla had another great season (3rd in GS voting) but this is decidedly below Vasiliev, whose team absolutely dominated the ´79 Championship. It was one of the greatest team performance on any tournament ever, Soviets ran over the other teams like a knife through butter.

    Overall, if there is one season in Vasiliev´s resumé, where you can argue he´d be a 1st NHL all-star / Norris calibre d-man, it´s this one. No one other d-man looks to be really close to him. And this time, it seems that there were not that very many forwards better than him, and no Euro goalie who had some truly memorable season as well. 1979 is sometimes also brought up as a year when the Soviet hockey program peaked. It´s likely based on their WHC 79 performance as mentioned above, but also on the Challenge Cup ´79 outcome, where the Soviets won 3-game series over NHL all-stars in a relatively comfortable fashion. Vasiliev was the most productive d-man of both teams (0+3 / 3 games), and he became an assist leader of the series with his 3 assists, since all other skaters had 0, 1 or 2 assists at max. Hence, I call this a range between 1st-3rd in Norris / All-star voting for the 1979.

    We have 1980 next in order. This might be uneasy to evaluate, because first thing that comes to my mind is the 'Miracle on ice' - a notorious and big Soviet loss... But how was Vasiliev himself doing? Pretty good, I´d say that he remained a, more or less, unquestionable top d-man of Europe. Fetisov hadn´t fully recovered yet. All the Czechoslovak d-men had weak ´80 seasons and I don´t see anyone else significant on the Swedish or Finnish side either. Vasiliev finished 5th in SPOTY voting as the only Russian D who received meaningful voting support (the next best D was Pervukhin who finished 13th with just 2 second-place votes). Valeri fared even better in Izvestia voting, as he was voted 3rd, only behind a pair of RWers Makarov and Mikhailov. No other d-man ended up in the top 10 of this Izvestia voting.

    On the other side, Vasiliev´s performance at OG 1980 doesn´t look that great at first glance but we have very limited information about his play.. Only thing I can look at, is his point production: 3 points in 7 games, which was not very much. In fact, all five remaining Soviet d-men that played at Lake Placid, scored more than Vasiliev. Unfortunately, I could not find +/- anywhere which could have been interesting. There were no individual awards handed out at those Olympics, so we don´t have much information in terms of which defensemen starred there.

    Ultimately, what you make of this season depends on what you choose to prefer: either still excellent voting record (only Mikhailov, Makarov considered as conclusively better skaters), or questionable performance of the Soviet Nationals at Olympics, including - supposedly - questionable performance of Vasiliev himself... Since he had great seasons 79 and 81, and since, in general, I have my trust in these votings, I´ll go with relatively high estimation here: 2nd-4th in Norris / NHL all-star for the 1980.

    For the following 80-81 season, Vasiliev got promoted as the captain of USSR after Mikhailov´s departure. It may not look like a big deal given that Valeri´s captaincy lasted only 2 seasons, but it´s remarkable that Viktor Tikhonov with his dictatorial, semi-paranoic regime would have picked a non-CSKA player to captain the National team. Really shows the trust that Vasiliev earned among Soviet hockey people after decade of his service.

    Anyway, Vasiliev added one of his best WHC performance yet in 1981. He was voted into All-star team once more, and this time together with Larry Robinson. Both of them got equal amount of media votes (37 ballots). Robinson was picked by the Directoriate, so we might conclude that the Canadien was slightly better. Vasiliev was for third time in a row voted as the best Soviet D - 6th in SPOTY, Kasatonov was 8th, Fetisov did not get any votes. Izvestia voting? Vasiliev ended up 8th, but it looks like he was 2nd best Euro d-man according to this vote, as Mats Waltin (SWE) probably finished 6th.

    How would have Vasiliev done in NHL award votings? It would have to had been worse than previous two years, right? Vasiliev was probably still the best d-man in Europe, but didn´t appear in the top 5 lists of Soviets / Europeans from this season. Robinson seems like an interesting comparison since he and the Russian co-led the championship 1981 media vote. Robinson was solid 3rd in both Norris and NHL All-star d-men votings in this season, I think that´s the maximum what Vasiliev could have achieved here too. 3rd-5th in Norris / All-star for the 1981.

    We´re getting to the final season. At Canada Cup 81, Vasiliev got to the point where he was most certainly outplayed by the Fetisov-Kasatonov duo. Valeri had 1 point, was +2, while Fetisov had 8 points, +3, and Kasatonov was even named to CC´ All-star team with his 11 points in 7 games, +3. The second Canada Cup d-man who was honoured by the writers became the CSSR´ Arnold Kadlec. It´s nice however, that Vasiliev as a captain led his National team to one of its greatest successes.

    Subsequent ´82 WHC is dominated by Fetisov-Kasatonov pair again. Fetisov had the 'best defenseman' award and both enjoyed very generous media all-star vote treatment once the tournament was over. Vasiliev didn´t get into 2nd AS team too but only thanks to weird voting format. Valeri actually got the 3rd biggest voting support but Miroslav Dvorak from CSSR and Craig Hartsburg as the best Canadian d-man were the '2nd teamers' instead.

    SPOTY 1982 - Vasiliev ends up 8th in his last big season. Fetisov is 1st, it was first time any Soviet D won the award. Despite seemingly better international performances, Kasatonov was voted below both, at 9th place. Regarding these 'Soviet MVPs', it can be mentioned that A. Maltsev, Dinamo Moscow star together with Vasiliev for the past 10-12 years and Vasiliev´s direct competitor in this, had better voting record than Vasiliev in each of these last three seasons (80, 81, 82). So Vasiliev was seemingly not the number one in his club team in the early 1980s despite all of his qualities.

    Izvestia trophy 1982 - Vasiliev ends up 8th just as last year. Another similarity to previous season, he´s the best Soviet d-man according to European observers, but one non-Russian is voted ahead. This year, it´s Miroslav Dvorak, who was voted 5th. It´s definitely suspicious that Fetisov, who won his first SPOTY award, didn´t gather any votes in the same year with only partially different set of voters. We´ve discussed this when Fetisov and Makarov appeared in earlier votes, no need to dive into it now..

    So how did Vasiliev´s record stand here with some of these contradictions? I think Fetisov was absolutely better than him by this point, questionable Izvestia trophy voting notwithstanding. I´ll take Kasatonov instead of Vasiliev too - better CC 81 and better WHC 81. I know Vasiliev had better voting support but at least in the case of SPOTY it wasn´t big difference. Other than Soviet d-men, Dvorak could be argued to be prefered to Vasiliev. He was 3rd in GS voting, and as mentioned above, 5th in Izvestia compared to Valeri´s 8th place. I don´t know.. they look similar, Vasiliev had probably slightly better WHC than Dvorak. I´ll probably take Vasiliev here.

    In any case, it was fairly strong season for European defensemen and European hockey in general, which can´t really be said about the early 80s NHL Norris winning d-men (Carlyle in 81, Wilson in 82). Given how well Fetisov-Kasatonov performed throughout the season, I wouldn´t be surprised if they occupied the 1st all-star team in NHL together just as they did on international level. As far as Vasiliev goes, I don´t think him being the 3rd best Soviet d-man behind peaking Fetisov-Kasatonov pair should have prevented him from a hypothetical meaningful Norris placement in this particular season. Craig Hartsburg and Rod Langway could be used here as a proxy for Vasiliev. Hartsburg had the WHC 82 of similar quality, Vasiliev slightly better voting support but Hartsburg had to cope with adjustment to wider European rinks. Hartsburg was 4th in Norris / 5th in AST d-men voting in this season. Langway finished 8th-9th in 1982 Norris / AST d-men voting and his play at this championship was awful considering he was on his way to win the Norris the very next season. Americans couldn´t depend on Langway to get them even past Italy, as Italians beat the USA 7:5 and sent the Americans to Championship B-group to face the Romanians next season... Overall, I can´t see a good chance for Vasiliev at 2nd NHL all-star team when I´m putting Fetisov-Kasatonov pair above him. Valeri´s season was a bit weaker than his previous one, so the range where I put should be lowered as well, but not too much: 5th-7th in Norris / All-star for the 1982.
    _____________________

    SUMMARY:

    I´ve tried to provide some quick and simple explanation each season as to why Vasiliev would be this or that, so you can make your judgement based on what factors you yourself view as more vital. For example, I can see people lowering my 1980 estimation for the reason that Vasiliev should be punished more for the 'Miracle on ice' disaster. I can also see those people, who put primary emphasis on SPOTY voting, elevating my 1974 Vasiliev estimation since he had his 2nd best finish of his career (3rd place ahead of some big names..). I´m saying this to stress that I´m not putting these estimations out there as if they were 'set in stone', but they can be used by those who need some common ground for comparison with other NHL defensemen and candidates for the final top-100 list. And if nothing else, these estimations serve as a guideline of various highs and lows of Vasiliev´s career:

    1973: 5th-7th
    1974: 3rd-5th
    1975: 3rd-5th
    1976: 12th-14th
    1977: 5th-7th
    1978: 11th-13th
    1979: 1st-3rd
    1980: 2nd-4th
    1981: 3rd-5th
    1982: 5th-7th
     
    Batis, overg and Hockey Outsider like this.
  23. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    When given the choice between a forward and a goaltender of equal quality, this group will take the forward and more than likely an inferior defenseman too.
     
  24. ted2019 Know your History

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    Bernie isn't even a top 120 player in my mind. Bure is kinda interesting as he's in the same boat as Lindros. When Bure was healthy, he was the goal scorer of his era and had incredible speed to boot. Unlike Lindros, Bure was never considered the most dominant player in the league during anytime in his career.
     
  25. ted2019 Know your History

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    Bio from TheDevilMadeMe:

    Russell Bowie's Offensive Dominance Over His Generation
    As promised, here is my essay on Russell Bowie. If you want to read quotes about how he played, they are all contained in the Dreakmur/Nalyd bio. Some of the stats here are directly lifted from that bio as well.

    I think a lot of GMs realize that Bowie was the leading goal scorer of his generation and probably didn't bring any non-offensive skills. But I think what might be lost in the conversation is the scale of Bowie's dominance.

    I. THE SCALE OF BOWIE'S DOMINATION

    Over the course of Bowie's athletic prime, he basically doubled the second best goal scorer

    From 1899 to 1908, Bowie scored 239 goals in 80 games (2.99 GPG). Blair Russell, the next closest scorer, had 109 goals in 67 games (1.62)

    Bowie scored 219% as many goals as his closest competitor - his advantage drops to "only" 184% on a per-game basis. (Compare to Wayne Gretzky who scored 187% as many points as 2nd place Mark Messier from 1979-80 to 1993-94).

    Even if you cherrypick the absolute best years of the best players of the decade, Bowie easily beats them - and remember, Bowie's prime lasted much longer than these guys

    Frank McGee vs. Russell Bowie (1903-1906)
    McGee = 71 goals
    Bowie = 106 goals
    Bowie beat McGee by 33% over the entire course of McGee's career

    Ernie Russell vs. Russell Bowie (1905-1908)
    Russell = 90 goals
    Bowie = 127 goals
    Bowie beat Russell by 29%

    Tommy Phillips vs. Russell Bowie (1905-1908)
    Phillips = 94 goals
    Bowie = 127 goals
    This is not quite comparable because these are different leagues, but is worth noting that Bowie, while probably not quite in his prime anymore, scored 26% more goals than Tommy Phillips during Phillips absolute prime.

    SIHR counted assists based off the detailed newspaper accounts in the era. This data suggests that Bowie could get the puck to his teammates better than most other players in the era.

    No players have assists recorded for them in 1901, 1902, or 1905.

    These are the only 5 seasons of his career for which we have assist data.
    • His finishes: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 7th
    • His VS2 scores: 100, 100, 100, 75, 60
    • His VS1 scores: 100, 89, 75, 56, 33

    At 0.50 assists per game, Bowie would be second to Alf Smith's 0.72 in reconstructed assists for the era, and he didn't have star linemates to pass to like Smith did.

    Bowie's league/competition
    Bowie played in the CAHL and the ECAHA, which were actually the same league under different names, between 1899 and 1908, which were not the only leagues in the world, but they were certainly the best leagues in the world. This line of leagues would eventually change its name to the NHA. The vast majority of hockey's top talents of the time were playing in these leagues.

    The Stanley Cup was usually controlled by these leagues (see the profile for more details).

    Iain Fyffe's blog shows just how much Bowie dominated his peers

    Iain uses a stastistical formula to rank players from the early eras for HHOF consideration. It's a stat-based formula so it does overrate Bowie's overall impact IMO, since he brings little but offense. But it does give a good idea of his statistical dominance over his peers on a yearly basis.


    Hockey Histrionics said:
    Russell Bowie is far and away the player with the most notable career from this era. He had several seasons that are simply massive, with his best being 1901, when he scored 24 goals despite missing one of his team's eight scheduled matches. The next-highest goal-scorer had 10 goals. Bowie scored more goals in seven games than the entire Quebec team did in eight games.​
    Later, Iain Fyffe calculated Gretzky and Orr's scores with his formula and concluded that Bowie's 1901 and 1903 seasons showed a Gretzky/Orr level dominance over his peers: http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com/2012/02/gretzorr-in-past.html

    Of all the seasons Iain studied (every season of hockey until 1927-28), Bowie had the 1st, 2nd, and 7th most dominant seasons (dominance defined as dominance over his peers):

    Hockey Historysis said:
    Bowie led the Canadian Amateur Hockey League (CAHL) in 1900/01 with 24 goals, despite his missing one of his team's eight matches. The next-best player had 10 goals. Hall-of-Fame forwards like Harry Trihey, Art Farrell, Rat Westwick, Bruce Stuart and Blair Russel could manage no more than 10 goals, yet Bowie put in 24. Bowie scored more goals than the entire Quebec hockey club did. Like Gretzky and Orr at their best, Bowie was playing the game at a different level.

    Havilland Routh and Art Hooper also pass the Gretzky-Orr threshold, but only for a single season each. Bowie possessing three of the top seven seasons here demonstrates that his appearance at the top of the list is no fluke. He had three seasons that were better than anything Howie Morenz or Cyclone Taylor ever did. It doesn't matter how great you believe Russell Bowie was; you're probably still underrating him.

    Bowies overall scoring finishes
    • Bowie led the major hockey world in goals 5 times: He led the CHL/ECHA in 1901, 1903, 1904, 1905, and 1908.
    • He finished 2nd in goals 3 times: 1902, 1906, 1907.
    • If you add in reconstructed assists for all players, Bowie led the major hockey world in points 7 times. He finished a close 2nd in goals in 1906 and 1907 to 2 different players, but reconstructed assists for every player would give him enough to finish 1st in points both seasons. He would still finish 2nd in points for 1902.
    II. THERE WAS NO GAP IN TIME BETWEEN RUSSELL BOWIE'S GENERATION AND CYCLONE TAYLOR / NEWSY LALONDE

    Senior Level Careers
    • Russell Bowie = 1899-1910
    • Cyclone Taylor = 1905-1923
    • Newsy Lalonde = 1904-1927

    Bowie retired from the ECHA in 1908 after the league became completely professional (he had this quaint notion about how hockey should be a purely amateur pursuit). Bowie led the ECHA in goals and points in 1907-08, the last season the league allowed amateur players, so it's highly likely he could have maintained that level in the top league.
    • A 23 year old Cyclone Taylor (at that point still a defenseman) joined the ECHA in 1907-08 during Bowie's last season there. He would remain in the league as it changed its name to the NHA in 1909-10 before heading out west in 1912-13.
    • A 23 year old Newsy Lalonde joined the league in 1909-10, the first year it was called the NHA. This would be Russel Bowie's last year of senior hockey in a different league
    III. SO WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE THE DOMINANT OFFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE GENERATION IMMEDIATELY BEFORE TAYLOR/LALONDE?

    Obviously, this is an impossible question to answer with precision. If we take the idea that "all generations are equal" seriously, Bowie actually dominated his generation more than Cyclone Taylor did. But there is good reason to believe that hockey took major strides between generations.

    At the end of Vol. 1 of The Trail of the Stanley Cup the author, Charles L. Coleman, selected his all-star team for 1893-1926. He considered Cyclone Taylor and Newsy Lalonde to be rovers, not forwards.

    The nominees for forwards were: Russell Bowie, Harry Broadbent, Jack Darragh, Cy Denneny, Frank Foyston, Harry Hyland, Joe Malone, Frank Nighbor, Didier Pitre, Gordon Roberts, and Ernie Russell

    He selected Russell Bowie, Joe Malone and Frank Nighbor.

    I don't think Coleman knew anything we don't when he put together his all-star team. He simply made a judgment call that Bowie had a more impressive career than the likes of Cy Denneny and Frank Foyston.

    Someone like Cy Denneny has a lot of extra ATD-value as a physical presence, but it is possible that Russell Bowie was actually a better goal scorer than Cy Denneny. I don't know if it's likely, but how far behind could he be?​
     

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