Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 19

[Nick Hansen]

Didn't Keon play in a very defensive system? From what I've read the Toronto Maple Leafs of the 60's seems like an all-time defensive team. Sort of like the Boston Bruins were around their cup final visits and to some extent still is.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

One additonal factoid about Ullman - under anything even close to modern voting methods, he almost certainly wins the 1964-65 Hart Trophy.

For those who dont know, during much of the Original 6, writers voted for a 1st half and 2nd half MVP, then added the votes together for the actual Hart winner. The numbers listed show 1st and 2nd half voting:

1964-65
HART: (324/324, 162-162)
1. Bobby Hull, Chi LW 103 (88-15)
2. Norm Ullman, Det C 96 (22-74)
3. Gordie Howe, Det RW 35 (9-26)
4. Roger Crozier, Det G 24 (8-16)
5. Charlie Hodge, Mtl G 16 (16-0)
6. Henri Richard, Mtl C 15 (11-4)
7. Stan Mikita, Chi C 14 (1-13)
8. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 5 (1-4)
T9. Alex Delvecchio, Det C/LW 4 (0-4)
T9. Johnny Bower, Tor G 4 (0-4)
T9. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl D 4 (3-1)

Hull dominated 1st half voting, but missed 9 games in the 2nd half, and Ullman dominated 2nd half voting.

Stan Mikita ended up leading the league in scoring, while Ullman finished a close second in points. Hull's injury also helped Ullman win the goal scoring title.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That is true but Keon was always five years younger yet he was productive and successful in the NHL from the start while Ullman missed a golden opportunity in the 1956-57 season centering Howe and Lindsay, going roughly 10 years before his break through season in 1964-65, scoring his career high 42 goals then regressing to his usual level.

Fact of the matter is that looking at their second season, Keon scored 9 more points playing with Armstrong and Duff than Ullman did with Howe and Lindsay. Also second year Earl Reibel outscored -15 points, second year Ullman playing with Howe and Lindsay.

Ullman simply had one memorable 42 goal season where he outscored Bobby Hull by 3 goals, Hull missing 9 games. Ullman was the only player to do so in a six season stretch. Otherwise he would be long forgotten.

8 top 10 finishes in points, 9 top 10 finishes in goals, 9 top 10 finishes in assists, 11 NHL All-Star games. But you're right that 1964-65 was his best season.

I really think your problem with Ullman is simply that he didn't win the Cup.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I guess i have more respect for the guy who actually coached them than this.

Balancing against the opinion of Scotty Bowman who coached against Keon and Ullman.

Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, I was gonna call up Bowman here as well. I don't mean to devalue Imlach...but I don't know...the numbers don't do Keon justice and they really flatter Ullman to my eyes...

 

[kruezer]

I feel like - very roughly - that taking Ullman over Keon is like taking Kuznetsov or even Tavares, but that's pushing it, over Patrice Bergeron...it's like "yeahhhhh...but is it really worth it on the ice...?"

Probably not.

Amend that: likely not.

Maybe Backstrom? Backstrom seems like a lowercase Ullman to me though, so even that’s probably not fair.

 

[Canadiens1958]

8 top 10 finishes in points, 9 top 10 finishes in goals, 9 top 10 finishes in assists, 11 NHL All-Star games. But you're right that 1964-65 was his best season.

I really think your problem with Ullman is simply that he didn't win the Cup.

Neither did Mark Howe who I support.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ullman and Backstrom make some sense. I undercut Ullman's defensive ability a bit by selecting the players I did...

 

[wetcoast]

Players miss games but even the most fragile sneak in a complete season or two. Mark Howe never did. Keenan and Mark Howe, Imlach and Dave Keon. Fond of both players but two of the worst examples using coaches comments.

The Dman that missed the most time and had the least number of complete seasons this round is Savard.

Howe should rank higher than Savard and it's not even really close, unless one ignores Howes WHA career and why would one even do that?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Didn't Keon play in a very defensive system? From what I've read the Toronto Maple Leafs of the 60's seems like an all-time defensive team. Sort of like the Boston Bruins were around their cup final visits and to some extent still is.

Yes, it was a very defensive system. Still, Keon wasn't an all-time great playmaker. The March 5, 1968 edition of The Sun had this to say right after Mahovlich was traded to Detroit:

"One of the unexplained longtime mysteries in Toronto has been Imlach's insistence of partnering Frank with Dave Keon. Keon is a fine centre except for one slight abberation - either he can't or won't pass to his left. Mahovlich understandably grew a little tired of breaking down the left wing and seldom getting the puck."

Remember earlier that Red Kelly was given a lot of credit for Mahovlich's breakout season. (Kelly retired after the 1967 Cup).

 

[wetcoast]

Watched some more Howe games last night...I can't imagine him not being at the top of my ballot this round...switched positions, switched leagues, crossed through eras, was the kingpin for defensive Flyers teams that did run into a buzzsaw at every pass, otherwise he'd have a couple 'chips...he's pretty much a wagon...

This is how I remember him as well.

So smooth, so efficient and most importantly so effective.

 

[ted2019]

Unless things change, this will most likely be my final order for this vote.
1. Nels Stewart. Nothing has changed my mind in regards to him and his positioning.
2. Mark Howe. I think myself and Mr. Farkas are the leaders in the clubhouse for Howe's cheerleading section. I see nothing that has been posted to change my mind on Howe.
3. Eric Lindros. Was near the top of my last vote list and no one except for Howe has surpassed him.
4. Eddie Gerard. My appreciation of him has grown since vote 1. I undervalued him and I see the error of my ways.

5/6/7/8 ( no particular order) Dave Keon, Serge Savard, Sid Abel, Valeri Vasiliev
9,10,11,12 ( again with the order) Peter Stastny, Joe Thornton, Bill Gadsby ( I overvalued him at the beginning), Norm Ullman

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Stock ticker update at close of business- Friday, March 22...

"Magnificent Seven" [Iginla, Vasiliev, Leetch, Abel, Lindros, Gadsby, Keith] holding firm. Not a lot of buzz around Abel- and in a 20-player Battle Royale, enthusiasm is key, My concern for the under-valuing of Abel & Gadsby is starting to approach my concern for the possible under-valuing of Lindros.

Stock down: Tony Esposito. As a childhood fan, Tony Esposito gave me a lot of positive regular-season memories.

Regular Season memories. NHL isn't EPL, though.

Stock moderately up: Norm Ullman. Is it enough? I don't know. But the more I look, the I see.

Stock slightly up: Dave Keon. Probably still NRing him, but deserves a look before we dim the lights.

Stock slightly down: Mark Howe. The guy the Panelists of the Defensemen Project had behind Gadsby- and Leetch- and Vasiliev, (and level-pegging with Quackenbush [one of my late-cuts]) is a curious case. Do I think he's a "Top-100" player? Sure. But here's the thing: A) there are un-nominateds better than he is. B) There are advancers worse than he is- and {most importantly} much of the current crop of nominees are people I have in front. Numbers game. Oh, well. Mark Howe was on his way to a "Hall of Good" career as a Forward, then played upper half HoF defense in the bigger show. In the meantime, Sid Abel could have been a legit upper-half Hall of Famer as a Left Wing OR as a Center. Puts him in rare air.

Stock slightly down: Št'astný. Maybe I made a mistake listing him.

Stock slightly up: Serge Savard. I can be talked into considering him better than Thornton. And possibly Št'astný. And I always had him North of Karlsson.

Players outside "The Seven" have flaws so apparent that I wouldn't be gutted if any of them missed the Top-100, not even Kane- a player I'd gladly mark for. Just get my Samurai safely through The Village, and I'll be happy with what you do with the other three.

 

[Captain Bowie]

OK, I've finalized my list to the point where I have 9 of the ranked players decided, and 6 of the unranked players decided. I have to rank one more player out of the following:

Abel
Blake
Savard
Keon
Gerard

Make your cases.

 

[seventieslord]

Yeah, I was gonna call up Bowman here as well. I don't mean to devalue Imlach...but I don't know...the numbers don't do Keon justice and they really flatter Ullman to my eyes...

That's true about Keon but I just don't see how you can say that about Ullman. It doesn't fit with what was said about him during this career.

Edit: actually, the numbers do Keon justice, if you look at the right numbers.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I have a vague idea of what was said about him, man, that wasn't a go-to guy...that was just a good guy...really good even...but not great for me.

I don't know, I'm getting crippled at a bar right now so this will piss some people off...but you know how Ryan Getzlaf is better than Henrik Sedin, even though Henrik Sedin has "X" and Getzlaf probably doesn't...but you just know...it's like that. Not even for Keon vs Ullman, just against Ullman...he wasn't great. He wasn't better than Francis...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I have a vague idea of what was said about him, man, that wasn't a go-to guy...that was just a good guy...really good even...but not great for me.

I don't know, I'm getting crippled at a bar right now so this will piss some people off...but you know how Ryan Getzlaf is better than Henrik Sedin, even though Henrik Sedin has "X" and Getzlaf probably doesn't...but you just know...it's like that. Not even for Keon vs Ullman, just against Ullman...he wasn't great. He wasn't better than Francis...

Ullman's scoring and Hart records are way better than Francis'

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ullman's scoring and Hart records are way better than Francis'

Now,now.Francis twice lead in RS assists and won a Selke. Buddy O'Connor won a Hart.

Neither is a Top 100 nor is Ullman.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ullman's scoring and Hart records are way better than Francis'

Strictly calling eye test. Feel free to disregard.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

OK, I've finalized my list to the point where I have 9 of the ranked players decided, and 6 of the unranked players decided. I have to rank one more player out of the following:
Abel
Blake
Savard
Keon
Gerard
Make your cases.

If limiting the discussion to simply the five names presented here- then I'd say that your inclinations are serving you well, at least as far as these players are concerned. [Think Greek: Alpha-Beta-Gamma's the way to go. At least we seem to agree on alpha-beta, anyway.]

Your mind's more made up than mine is. I'm only sure of seven of my vote-recipients. I'll forgive myself by saying that, in a Round where we're discussing a SuperSized set of candidates, it should take me longer to make up my mind.

Funny thing I saw re: Blake when making the Prelim List. He played through the War- but didn't really Cowleyize the League like you might have thought he'd have a chance to. Still, an on-time nominee- a player we shouldn't overlook... but in back of Sid Abel, regardless.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

OK, I've finalized my list to the point where I have 9 of the ranked players decided, and 6 of the unranked players decided. I have to rank one more player out of the following:

Abel
Blake
Savard
Keon
Gerard

Make your cases.

Take Keon.

Great, great defensive player.

First time I saw Gretzky play was in his rookie year against the Whalers in Hartford. When the great one was on the ice, Keon was always nearby. Didn't shadow him, but clearly aware of him. Whalers won, Gretzky had no points. Same result in the other game in Hartford that year. Oilers only scored 2 goals in the 2 games. Granted, Gretzky was still a teen and Keon was a 39 year-old veteran who knew all the tricks. Still, Gretzky did put up 137 points against the rest of the league.

 

[MXD]

Stock ticker update at close of business- Friday, March 22...

"Magnificent Seven" [Iginla, Vasiliev, Leetch, Abel, Lindros, Gadsby, Keith] holding firm. Not a lot of buzz around Abel- and in a 20-player Battle Royale, enthusiasm is key, My concern for the under-valuing of Abel & Gadsby is starting to approach my concern for the possible under-valuing of Lindros.

Stock down: Tony Esposito. As a childhood fan, Tony Esposito gave me a lot of positive regular-season memories.

Regular Season memories. NHL isn't EPL, though.

Stock moderately up: Norm Ullman. Is it enough? I don't know. But the more I look, the I see.

Stock slightly up: Dave Keon. Probably still NRing him, but deserves a look before we dim the lights.

Stock slightly down: Mark Howe. The guy the Panelists of the Defensemen Project had behind Gadsby- and Leetch- and Vasiliev, (and level-pegging with Quackenbush [one of my late-cuts]) is a curious case. Do I think he's a "Top-100" player? Sure. But here's the thing: A) there are un-nominateds better than he is. B) There are advancers worse than he is- and {most importantly} much of the current crop of nominees are people I have in front. Numbers game. Oh, well. Mark Howe was on his way to a "Hall of Good" career as a Forward, then played upper half HoF defense in the bigger show. In the meantime, Sid Abel could have been a legit upper-half Hall of Famer as a Left Wing OR as a Center. Puts him in rare air.

Stock slightly down: Št'astný. Maybe I made a mistake listing him.

Stock slightly up: Serge Savard. I can be talked into considering him better than Thornton. And possibly Št'astný. And I always had him North of Karlsson.

Players outside "The Seven" have flaws so apparent that I wouldn't be gutted if any of them missed the Top-100, not even Kane- a player I'd gladly mark for. Just get my Samurai safely through The Village, and I'll be happy with what you do with the other three.

I... I really like what you're doing. Your detailed takes and all.
But you really have the uncanny capacity of coming up to the opposite conclusion as I am based on what's at our disposal.

Mark Howe stock slightly down? That's... not really what has been going on.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Someone should probably sell Abel here as more than just Howe's center, I think he has more to offer...is there a good bio on him at least...?

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I... I really like what you're doing. Your detailed takes and all.
But you really have the uncanny capacity of coming up to the opposite conclusion as I am based on what's at our disposal.

Mark Howe stock slightly down? That's... not really what has been going on.

You're right inasmuch as the guy who probably wouldn't have survived a tiebreak with Quackenbush six years ago seems to have caught a buzzwave here. It's just that I'm not along for the ride right now.

If I could defenestrate Cowley or Brett Hull to make room for Mark Howe, I would.

Beyond my semi-non-negotiable seven, my current opinions after that are pretty humble (except for Karlsson, who's kind of in my "not-under-any-circumstances" column). If someone is going to lift Mark Howe over My Personal Fan Favorite Kane, I'll disagree somewhat- but won't howl in protest.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Someone should probably sell Abel here as more than just Howe's center, I think he has more to offer...is there a good bio on him at least...?

Since he was verifiably productive without Howe, AND played a mentoring role to Howe (fellow Saskatchewanian[?]), AND was top-drawer at two positions... yeah.