Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 15

[Canadiens1958]

To put it another way,

Durnan allowed 1 or fewer GA in 15 of 45 playoff games (33%) 2 or fewer GA in 25 of 45 playoff games (56%)
Broda allowed 1 or fewer GA in 38 of 101 playoff games (38%). 2 or fewer GA in 64 of 101 playoff games (63%)
But in 6 of Broda's 101 playoff games, he (or at least his team defense) was really bad.

_____________________

Anecdotally:

Durnan may have never allowed more than 4 goals in a game, but overall, his two most famous playoffs are very bad. 1945 - arguably the biggest upset of all-time as the Canadiens were defeated by the war-decimated Maple Leafs, as Frank McCool outdueled Bill Durnan. And 1950, when Durnan retired in the middle of the playoffs due at least in part to nerves. Durnan seems to have been quite good in the playoffs outside those two notorious seasons.

Broda, of course, gets credit, as one of the backbones of a dynasty, generally listed with Billy Smith as among the most clutch goaltenders ever.
_________

Averaged out:

Durnan regular season GAA: 2.37
Durnan playoff GAA: 2.07

Broda regular season GAA: 2.53
Broda playoff GAA: 1.98

The averaged out numbers fit their reputations - Broda was better on a per-game basis in the playoffs. Durnan was better on a per-game basis in the regular season. Broda maintained these averages over many more games than Durnan did (101-45 playoff GP, 629-383 regular season GP).

1945 Durnan allowed 15 goals in 6 games = 2.42 GAA, OT adjustment while McCool allowed 21.

1944-45 Montreal Canadiens Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

1938 Finals, sub.500 Chicago upset Toronto in the finals, Broda allowed 10 goals in 4 goals =2.50 GAA

1937-38 Chicago Black Hawks Schedule and Results | Hockey-Reference.com

So 1945 Durnan, did better than 1938 Broda when you look at the complete picture.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

1945 Durnan allowed 15 goals in 6 games = 2.42 GAA, OT adjustment while McCool allowed 21.

1944-45 Montreal Canadiens Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

1938 Finals, sub.500 Chicago upset Toronto in the finals, Broda allowed 10 goals in 4 goals =2.50 GAA

1937-38 Chicago Black Hawks Schedule and Results | Hockey-Reference.com

So 1945 Durnan, did better than 1938 Broda when you look at the complete picture.

The point of bringing up 1945 is just how much better the Canadiens roster was than anyone else. They lost 4-2 to a team that was mostly AHLers, and Durnan's GAA was mediocre (for the era).

 

[wetcoast]

"Proper" as in academic? Thanks, I'm already familiar with it, but I'm not writing a thesis here and I don't expect every reader of my post to know Latin or the academic jargon.

KISS all day long is the way to go.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The point of bringing up 1945 is just how much better the Canadiens roster was than anyone else. They lost 4-2 to a team that was mostly AHLers, and Durnan's GAA was mediocre (for the era).

1945 Leafs had 3 future HHOFers and a vastly superior coach. Montreal had 6 future HHOFers.

And the 1938 Blackhawks were what 14-25-9 ,vs Toronto 24-15-9, Earl Seibert -1 HHOfer and a ragtag collection featuring the owners whimsical collection of US university players plus odds and end against the Leafs 5 future HHOFers.

 

[DannyGallivan]

KISS all day long is the way to go.

Hrumph! Mrs. Gallivan wishes! Oh wait... you mean keep it simple. Never mind.

 

[Batis]

Based on reading the quotes it seems to me that the North American contemporary views of Firsov are somewhat mixed with some like Marshall Johnston, Scotty Bowman, Seth Martin and Jack McLeod (naming Firsov in the same sentence as Esposito calling them exemplary when it comes to puck possession) talking very, very highly about Firsov while others like Morris Mott and to some degree David Bauer seem to have been somewhat less impressed. The European contemporary views of Firsov seems to have been almost exclusively very positive with both his teammates (Kharlamov and co), his longtime coach (Tarasov) and opponents (Ketola) calling him either the top Soviet player of all time, the greatest forward of the 60's or a perfect hockey player.

As for another interesting view on Soviet hockey of the late 60's we have Carl Brewers opinion on the Soviets after having trained with CSKA Moscow in 1968.

In 1967-1968 Brewer played in the Minors (Muskegon Mohawks, International Hockey League). Afterwards he joined Finnish club IFK Helsinki for the 1968-1969 season as playing coach and led them to the championship. Obviously it was during this stint in Finland that Anatoly Tarasov got in touch with him, more precisely in September 1968. Here's the report the Canadian Press published in December 1968:

Former Toronto Maple Leaf defenceman Carl Brewer has been used as a guinea pig by the Russians to learn the intricacies of National Hockey League play.
Russian Coach Anatoly Tarasov talked Brewer into working out with the Russians last September and wrote about the experience in a Soviet weekly sports publication.
Scott Young, writing in The Globe Magazine, said he learned of Brewer's workout by having Tarasov's article translated from Russian last November during a trip to Russia.
Tarasov said in the article he talked with Brewer in a Helsinki motel room after the Russians had defeated Finland 12-3 in a game and persuaded him to practice with the Soviet team the next day.
Tarasov wrote that he had seen Brewer play in the NHL and for Canada in the 1967 world championships at Vienna and had a great admiration for his skills.
"For the first time I could observe a Canadian professional, make him perform all the exercises, get to know his manner of playing and compare it to ours," Tarasov said.
The Russian coach used Brewer as a forward in preliminary scrimmages, putting him with two of his best players because "he will be pleased with such companionship...and I will be able to compare his technique and hockey with that of our masters."
"First we had limbering up, where Brewer together with [Veniamin] Alexandrov and [Anatoly] Firsov had to waltz and perform other athletic tricks: jump, squat, pass the puck, take it in different ways from the opponent. Our players are used to all these exercises, that is why they overdid Brewer in them."
"In the tactics exercise with three forwards attacking the goal against two defencemen, Brewer (on defence) was quite at home. I made no remarks at first. Each forward tried to get the upper hand over Brewer alone by skating around him, but he would be driven to the corner and done with. But then I changed the tactics. They danced around Brewer with different rhythms, rushed to him unexpectedly, tried to hit him before he hit them, and sometimes our guest was rather at a loss...but more often he was brilliant."
"He was a real fighter, decisive, thoughtful, self-possessed. Coming close to him our fellows would get into sort of a trap, with their sticks, arms or even heads clasped under his arm, or his stick stuck between their feet."
Turning to the intra-squad game that followed, Tarasov wrote: "...Brewer was superb in his zone especially when the opponent was slow and akward. He not only took the puck, but also knocked the player down. But when the player was quick and active, Brewer was rather in difficulty."
The Russian coach said he asked Brewer how the Soviet team would do against NHL teams and Brewer replied the Russians would win first and then lose later.
"Professionals wouldn't consider you worthy opponents until you beat them," Brewer said. "And the point is that your tactics and ways are unfamiliar to them, so at first that would be to your advantage."

Speaking about Brewer and other circumstancial evidence it is perhaps worth noting that in the tournament when Firsov and Brewer played against each other (1967 WHC) Firsov led the all-star voting among forwards while Brewer led the all-star voting among defencemen. It was however Firsov who was voted the best player of the tournament recieving 50 percent of the votes according to this.

Presumably from the same source (Finnish hockey yearbook Jääkiekkokirja), 1967 edition:

1967
GOALTENDERS: Carl Wetzel 42.5 % of the votes
DEFENCEMEN: Carl Brewer 83 %, Aleksandr Ragulin 42.5 %
FORWARDS: Anatoli Firsov 99 %, Veniamin Aleksandrov 79 %, Aleksandr Almetov 47 %

(It's also mentioned that Finnish goalie Urpo Ylönen got 20.5 % of the goalie votes, but we don't get to know where that put him in the ranking.)

BEST PLAYER: Anatoli Firsov 50 % of the votes.

So Firsov did once beat out an NHL post season all-star defenceman in a voting as well. Brewer was voted on NHL post season all-star teams both before (1 first team selection and 2 second team selections) and after this tournament (1 second team selection). It is also worth noting that Firsov was the top forward according to both the media and the directorate while Brewer "only" led the the media vote with Davydov getting the directorate award. So Firsov was a more unanimous decision as the top forward while also being voted the top player of the tournament. Yes this is just one tournament but since we are bringing up circumstancial evidence it is at least one more piece of that.

 

[DN28]

And we know why tony Hand won't come up for discussion right? It was the level of competition that he played against putting up those video game numbers.

Surely we must use the same analysis to look at every players level of competition right?
or does it only apply to guys Tony Hand and Erich Kühnhackl who while being very good players, even more so for Eric played on really weak hockey national teams.

It was an exaggeration to prove a point, obviously Hand doesn't apply here due to the level of competition he lays against, even though he showed quite well as a 19 year old in a short 3 game stint with the WHL Victoria cougars going 3-4-4-8 before returning home to Scotland because he was homesick.

Of Course Firsov became a better player than Tony Hand (Hand playing back in the UK did extremely little for his development) but Firsov also faced very weak competition in the pond he was dominant in (international events).

How many other top 100 or even 200 players would lose exhibition games after training with their professional team for a long period of time to a put together junior team with s a couple of other players, like firsov did in the 60's tour that C1958 has documented?

Glossing over that major point seems very bewildering, especially when wingers like Hull and Kurri are available this round.

Even if one does think that Firsov is a top 120ish player is he really better than hull who led the NHL in goals for 3 consecutive years from 90-92 by a margin of 70 goals over the 2nd place Steve Yzerman.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Let that sink in for a minute, even if Brett hull was injured and plays zero games in 91-92, his 2 season goal scoring would equal what Steve Yzerman did in the 3 year time period.

Hull, as mentioned upthread also was a very good international player in best on best tournaments, also was very good in playoff play and has great longevity.

To the bolded, I agree to the extent that those USSR vs. Junior Canadiens (or other junior teams) results do give me a pause, but didn´t Junior Canadiens have a history of also engaging with actual NHL teams at some point (60s or 50s?) - and with reasonable success? I recall reading it somewhere but couldn´t google it now.

I´ve taken a look at the game reports that have been posted so far and thought some circumstances need to be highlighted.

December 11, 1964. USSR defeats Junior Canadiens 3:2 despite the Canadiens, coached by Bowman, employed Doug Harvey for 50 minutes of the game. Gump Worsley was added to the team too. Young Serge Savard was a member of the Canadiens. So they weren´t quite the "juniors".. Firsov recorded 1 point (0+1). On the other hand, it´s true that both Harvey and Worsley weren´t very impressed by the Soviets (Source 1, Source 2).

December 14, 1965. USSR defeats OHA Junior All-Stars Team 4:3. This team included young Bobby Orr. Firsov recorded 3 points (1+2) from this game.

December 15, 1965. USSR loses to Junior Canadiens 1:2. The game´s star was Jacques Plante. From bigger names, again young Serge Savard and Jacques Lemaire seemingly participated. Firsov assisted on the lone Soviet goal (0+1). In terms of Soviet tours and encounters with various Canadian teams on Canadian soil however, Montreal Gazette´s report indicates that USSR losses were rare: “The game marked the first time that a Canadian team has beaten the Russians since 1962 when Windsor Bulldogs defeated them 9-2, their lone loss in nine games. (…) It was only the fourth defeat in four Russian tours of Canada starting in 1957 when Russia had 5-2-1 record. In three previous visits to the Forum the Russians won 6-3, 5-2 and 3-2.” Although post-game comments by Plante are similarly unfavourable to Soviets as were those made by Harvey and Worsley previous year.

December 29, 1969. USSR loses to Junior Canadiens 3:9. From the Canadiens´ side, Guy Lapointe, Gilbert Perreault, Rick Martin are probably the most recognizable names. This version of Montreal Junior Canadiens has been designated as “the greatest junior hockey team of all time” per English Wiki and similarly per this site too. Junior Canadiens won the Memorial Cup twice in row (1969, 1970). I couldn´t find the information whether Firsov played this game, but the report itself mentions that only 7 players from the Soviet team, that won last World Championship, also participated on this tour. Looking at the names, it seems that Tarasov himself picked rather his own “Junior Soviets” team…

Honest question:
What is negative or doubtful about Firsov´s play at these games?

 

[Canadiens1958]

To the bolded, I agree to the extent that those USSR vs. Junior Canadiens (or other junior teams) results do give me a pause, but didn´t Junior Canadiens have a history of also engaging with actual NHL teams at some point (60s or 50s?) - and with reasonable success? I recall reading it somewhere but couldn´t google it now.

I´ve taken a look at the game reports that have been posted so far and thought some circumstances need to be highlighted.

December 11, 1964. USSR defeats Junior Canadiens 3:2 despite the Canadiens, coached by Bowman, employed Doug Harvey for 50 minutes of the game. Gump Worsley was added to the team too. Young Serge Savard was a member of the Canadiens. So they weren´t quite the "juniors".. Firsov recorded 1 point (0+1). On the other hand, it´s true that both Harvey and Worsley weren´t very impressed by the Soviets (Source 1, Source 2).

December 14, 1965. USSR defeats OHA Junior All-Stars Team 4:3. This team included young Bobby Orr. Firsov recorded 3 points (1+2) from this game.

December 15, 1965. USSR loses to Junior Canadiens 1:2. The game´s star was Jacques Plante. From bigger names, again young Serge Savard and Jacques Lemaire seemingly participated. Firsov assisted on the lone Soviet goal (0+1). In terms of Soviet tours and encounters with various Canadian teams on Canadian soil however, Montreal Gazette´s report indicates that USSR losses were rare: “The game marked the first time that a Canadian team has beaten the Russians since 1962 when Windsor Bulldogs defeated them 9-2, their lone loss in nine games. (…) It was only the fourth defeat in four Russian tours of Canada starting in 1957 when Russia had 5-2-1 record. In three previous visits to the Forum the Russians won 6-3, 5-2 and 3-2.” Although post-game comments by Plante are similarly unfavourable to Soviets as were those made by Harvey and Worsley previous year.

December 29, 1969. USSR loses to Junior Canadiens 3:9. From the Canadiens´ side, Guy Lapointe, Gilbert Perreault, Rick Martin are probably the most recognizable names. This version of Montreal Junior Canadiens has been designated as “the greatest junior hockey team of all time” per English Wiki and similarly per this site too. Junior Canadiens won the Memorial Cup twice in row (1969, 1970). I couldn´t find the information whether Firsov played this game, but the report itself mentions that only 7 players from the Soviet team, that won last World Championship, also participated on this tour. Looking at the names, it seems that Tarasov himself picked rather his own “Junior Soviets” team…

Honest question:
What is negative or doubtful about Firsov´s play at these games?

1956-57 Junior Canadiens played the four USA
NHL, losing 3 beating the weak Blackhawks. Posted about these games on HF but do not know if they survived migration.

1956-57 and 1957-58 Junior Canadiens also played in two leagues. A Junior and a Senior league. They had an older goalie for the Senior league games.

Firsov was on the 1969 tour but did not play against the Junior Canadiens.

What is negative or doubtful?

1.) Juniors do not have their adult strength.In Canada such games against NHL teams are forgotten after the money raised is deposited. Soviets took them seriously.

2.)Almost 40 years old, Doug Harvey played 50 minutes against the Soviets. Jacques Plante without the benefit of training camp or game action beat the Soviets.

Says something about the Soviets and how good they were at that time.

 

[VMBM]

Some quotes on Firsov from Finnish hockey books that might be relevant. The books are Talviurheilun sankarit (2nd ed. 1979, Voitto Raatikainen et al., hockey writer Jyrki Laelma) and Huippu-urheilun maailma 2 (1979, Antero Raevuori et al.). The translations have been done in a bit of haste, but I think they're understandable at least (?).

Firstly, an excerpt concerning Firsov and the rule change in 1969 (body checking):

Jyrki Laelma
Firsov was a dark, smallish player, who had plenty of strength - he could play at the elite level even when body checking was allowed in all zones of the ice.

About Firsov's performances against (amateur) Canadians, and the interest he gathered:

Huippu-urheilun maailma 2
There was no one who could push him away if it was shoulder to shoulder, beat [him] on faceoffs, make [him] lose balance with legal bodychecks.
Still Canada's national team players tried their best, targeted him time after time; nine times the Soviet Union faced them during January 1969, nine times they lost in front of their home crowd, when in Winnipeg, when in Vancouver, when in Toronto. The most devastating news came from Montreal*; USSR had won 10-2, Anatoli Firsov had scored 6 goals!
After that tour, the offers from NHL recruiters were now sky-high - 100 000 dollars right away and plenty of more once they sit at the negotiation table.
The answer from Anatoli Firsov was [always] the same, short and clear: "The Soviet players will never sell themselves for dollars!"
The NHL did not get the piece of gold they craved for their professional leagues and Anatoli Firsov did not get the gold he was not allowed to crave. (...)
Anatoli Firsov's performances during [only] one tour hardly would have made the heads of Canadian hockey executives spin; the secret was that he had already been spinning them during many winters. A loss and a tie had been mishaps for the Reds, wins everyday occurrencies. At the amateur level, the homeland of hockey was hopelessly inferior to the Soviet Union; the only question was what would happen in a game where Canada had all their best players.
"Many times we have asked your professionals to play in our country, but they haven't done that," explained Anatoli Tarasov and spread his hands. Canada's national team coach Jack McLeod followed up as if it was the same sentence: "Of course... The professionals want millions** for the games, which you don't want to pay!"
Maybe it was good that the confrontations did not take place as long as Anatoli Firsov continued his career; he would have caused Canada's proud professionals to have a permament emotional wound. Now he settled for taking away the self-respect from Swedish, Finnish, Czechoslovak, American and Canadian amateurs.

* This game (but played in Ottawa, rather)
** Sic!

Now, the latter excerpt should definitely be taken with a grain of salt (I'm sure no one would have figured that out without me saying so ), as it is a bit vague, not to mention extravagant (the part about Firsov's hypothetical encounter with the NHL professionals). In any case, at least it indicates that Firsov did impress in games vs Canadians in Canada and that there was interest for him to play in the NHL.

And lastly, about the Firsov vs Bobrov rift:

Huippu-urheilun maailma 2
Soon after the Winter Olympic Games in Sapporo, a surprise had followed a surprise.
Anatoli Tarasov and Arkadi Chernyshev were dropped from the national team management and moved to other assignments. They were replaced by Vsevolod Bobrov, 1950s superstar, and Nikolai Puchkov, 1950s top goalie (...)
To Anatoli Firsov, this was a slap in the face, since Anatoli Tarasov was more to him than a father. So emotion dictated the words which his mouth spoke, not sense and judgement: ''The swap is wrong, stupid! I won't accept it. We still need Tarasov. I don't respect Bobrov... He is a total zero!"
"Firsov will not come to Prague, his condition doesn't endure a long tournament," explained Vsevolod Bobrov to journalists, when the Soviet Union faced Finland in a game in Tampere March 28th.
The words were not believed and explanations were made up; from somewhere spread even the news that Anatoli Firsov had stomache cancer.
The most rational thought was also the truth: when the superstar and the head coach don't fit in the same boat, the other has to stay on shore. That was Anatoli Firsov's part. He was never seen in the World Championships again, not on the national team either; he still played for CSKA, though.

 

[Theokritos]

Now, the latter excerpt should definitely be taken with a grain of salt (I'm sure no one would have figured that out without me saying so ), as it is a bit vague, not to mention extravagant (the part about Firsov's hypothetical encounter with the NHL professionals). In any case, at least it indicates that Firsov did impress in games vs Canadians in Canada and that there was interest for him to play in the NHL.

Yeah, that part is somewhat hyperbolic.

The alleged $100k offer was from the Los Angeles Kings. In February 1969 their GM Larry Regan said:
"We certainly didn't offer him any $100,000. But we'd love to have him. He's the best in Europe and would be a terrific attraction in Los Angeles." (Sourced from here.)

 

[Canadiens1958]

Some quotes on Firsov from Finnish hockey books that might be relevant. The books are Talviurheilun sankarit (2nd ed. 1979, Voitto Raatikainen et al., hockey writer Jyrki Laelma) and Huippu-urheilun maailma 2 (1979, Antero Raevuori et al.). The translations have been done in a bit of haste, but I think they're understandable at least (?).

Firstly, an excerpt concerning Firsov and the rule change in 1969 (body checking):


About Firsov's performances against (amateur) Canadians, and the interest he gathered:

* This game (but played in Ottawa, rather)
** Sic!

Now, the latter excerpt should definitely be taken with a grain of salt (I'm sure no one would have figured that out without me saying so ), as it is a bit vague, not to mention extravagant (the part about Firsov's hypothetical encounter with the NHL professionals). In any case, at least it indicates that Firsov did impress in games vs Canadians in Canada and that there was interest for him to play in the NHL.

And lastly, about the Firsov vs Bobrov rift:

1969 results from January were played under the old IIHF rules limiting bodychecking. Soviets went 9-0 on NA sized rinks. Dececmber 1969 under the new IIHF rules allowing unlimited bodychecking in 5 games against Canada, Soviets went 2-3 on NA sized rinks. Huge difference.

Details about the January 24, 1969 game against a depth Canadian National Team:

The Calgary Herald - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

 

[bobholly39]

Are any of the available wingers really better than Patrick Kane?

Kane in conversation for best in the world since the lock-out season (2013) and he too contributed to multiple championships.At least two years now where he was the best player in the league, 2016 and this year (tied with Kucherov), on pace for his 2nd Hart Trophy.Always produced since year one so longevity not a huge concern anymore.Clutch, thrives under pressure.Performed on dynastic and weak teams alike.

I think Kane is one modern player who will suffer in this project.

He doesn't have the longevity of a Chara or such to be near the end of his career where it's easier to get the whole picture.

And unlike guys like Crosby, Ovi or Malkin - who really established themselves as the best players in the world for many years since 2009 or before - Kane really started peaking at a higher level later on. ie my opinion on Kane is improving and i expect 5 years from now ill be higher on him than i was when i submitted vote 1. Needs a bit more time to age.

So - not sure Kane is the best comparable and certainly not a reason to not vote for wingers here.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Interesting January 29,1969 column by Hal Walker,Calgary Herald about the state of management, coaching, players on the Canadian National Team:

The Calgary Herald - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

 

[Theokritos]

December 11, 1964. USSR defeats Junior Canadiens 3:2 despite the Canadiens, coached by Bowman, employed Doug Harvey for 50 minutes of the game. Gump Worsley was added to the team too. Young Serge Savard was a member of the Canadiens. So they weren´t quite the "juniors".. Firsov recorded 1 point (0+1). On the other hand, it´s true that both Harvey and Worsley weren´t very impressed by the Soviets (Source 1, Source 2).
December 14, 1965. USSR defeats OHA Junior All-Stars Team 4:3. This team included young Bobby Orr. Firsov recorded 3 points (1+2) from this game.
December 15, 1965. USSR loses to Junior Canadiens 1:2. The game´s star was Jacques Plante. From bigger names, again young Serge Savard and Jacques Lemaire seemingly participated. Firsov assisted on the lone Soviet goal (0+1). In terms of Soviet tours and encounters with various Canadian teams on Canadian soil however, Montreal Gazette´s report indicates that USSR losses were rare: “The game marked the first time that a Canadian team has beaten the Russians since 1962 when Windsor Bulldogs defeated them 9-2, their lone loss in nine games. (…) It was only the fourth defeat in four Russian tours of Canada starting in 1957 when Russia had 5-2-1 record. In three previous visits to the Forum the Russians won 6-3, 5-2 and 3-2.” Although post-game comments by Plante are similarly unfavourable to Soviets as were those made by Harvey and Worsley previous year.

I'm sure that in 1964 and 1965 the Soviets were not quite "there" yet. The comment by Red Berenson from 1964 is pretty telling: "On a given night they might beat an NHL team but on another night a good junior team would beat them."

1969 results from January were played under the old IIHF rules limiting bodychecking. Soviets went 9-0 on NA sized rinks. Dececmber 1969 under the new IIHF rules allowing unlimited bodychecking in 5 games against Canada, Soviets went 2-3 on NA sized rinks. Huge difference.

No doubt the Soviets initially struggled when they first played Canadian teams under the new rules. And yet, three years later they upset Team Canada with a roster that had not changed fundamentally from 1969-1970.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1972 upset as in Soviets losing the Summit Series, on home ice, after a 3-1-1 advantage.

Anatoli Firsov was not fundamental to the 1969-1972 Soviet Roster.

 

[DannyGallivan]

1972 upset as in Soviets losing the Summit Series, on home ice, after a 3-1-1 advantage.

Canada finally gets some semblance of their skating legs back, play like a team, and storm back. Never an upset at all.

Now back to our regularly scheduled voting round discussion.

 

[Batis]

Anatoli Firsov was not fundamental to the 1969-1972 Soviet Roster.

The man who was voted the top LW ahead of Kharlamov for 3 straight WHC:s between 1969 and 1971, led the 1969 and 1971 WHC:s in both scoring and goalscoring, led the 1970 WHC in assists and had off the charts strong R ON/R OFF numbers at both the 1969 WHC and the 1972 Olympics was not fundamental to the 1969-1972 Soviet Rosters?

Perhaps it is not a coincidence that the Soviets lost their first international tournament in decade when Tarasov was removed from his post and Firsov was left off the team ahead of the 1972 WHC. And if I would get to choose between the teams I would take the Soviet team at the 1972 Olympics ahead of the 1972 WHC team or the 1972 Summit Series team every day of the week.

 

[Theokritos]

If people pretend the 7-3 in the first game of the Summit Series wasn't considered a major upset of epic proportions back in 1972 we might as well close the history forum for good. It's a completely ahistoric claim that goes against everything the NHL and the Canadian hockey community believed. If it appears less like an upset to you in hindsight, it's only because you retroactively acknowledge the lesson of the Summit Series: That the Soviets were much closer to the NHL than most people believed until that game in Montreal happened.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The man who was voted the top LW ahead of Kharlamov for 3 straight WHC:s between 1969 and 1971, led the 1969 and 1971 WHC:s in both scoring and goalscoring, led the 1970 WHC in assists and had off the charts strong R ON/R OFF numbers at both the 1969 WHC and the 1972 Olympics was not fundamental to the 1969-1972 Soviet Rosters?

Perhaps it is not a coincidence that the Soviets lost their first international tournament in decade when Tarasov was removed from his post and Firsov was left off the team ahead of the 1972 WHC. And if I would get to choose between the teams I would take the Soviet team at the 1972 Olympics ahead of the 1972 WHC team or the 1972 Summit Series team every day of the week.

Your issue is with another poster whose paradoxical statement I expanded upon.

 

[DannyGallivan]

If people pretend the 7-3 in the first game of the Summit Series wasn't considered a major upset of epic proportions back in 1972 we might as well close the history forum for good. It's a completely ahistoric claim that goes against everything the NHL and the Canadian hockey community believed. If it appears less like an upset to you in hindsight, it's only because you retroactively acknowledge the lesson of the Summit Series: That the Soviets were much closer to the NHL than most people believed until that game in Montreal happened.

.....ooooor, the Canadians were totally out of shape, over confident, were caught totally by surprise and no where near being a team. Oh, and they coulda used the two missing Bobbys.

But yes, even with all that, the poor scouting reports dictated that anything less than a 8-0 sweep would be an upset. It was an upset of historical proportions.

 

[Theokritos]

But yes, even with all that, the poor scouting reports dictated that anything less than a 8-0 sweep would be an upset. It was an upset of historical proportions.

In your last post you claimed the opposite:

Never an upset at all.

 

[Theokritos]

Your issue is with another poster whose paradoxical statement I expanded upon.

Nothing paradoxical about it. He was no less or more "fundamental" to his team than Gretzky to the Oilers.

 

[Canadiens1958]

So now outlier results in one game matter. History of the NHL is full of such results. Saw examples upthread when looking at Bill Durnan.

Interestingly, no Firsov proponents have compared him to contemporary NHL members of 1972 Summit series Team Canada. A litmus test that would not be favourable to Firsov.

 

[DannyGallivan]

In your last post you claimed the opposite:

That was in reference to Canada's comeback in Moscow.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So now outlier results in one game matter. History of the NHL is full of such results. Saw examples upthread when looking at Bill Durnan.

Interestingly, no Firsov proponents have compared him to contemporary NHL members of 1972 Summit series Team Canada. A litmus test that would not be favourable to Firsov.

Bill Durnan only played in the playoffs 6 times (out of a 7 season career). Of those 6 playoffs, 2 are what I would considered highly suspect performances. I wouldn't call that "outlier results."

To be fair to Durnan, nothing wrong at all with his other 4 playoffs, and he did win 2 Cups (albeit on a heavily favored team).