Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 14

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Honestly I've researched so much in the past ~5 months in this project and now the ATD, I look at my initial list and I'm embarrassed. My list would be a *lot* different.

Nothing to ever be embarrassed about! The goal of the project is education - not an accurate top-120 list. The people whose lists change the most are often the people who learned the most, and if you’re doing that, you’re doing great!
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,885
13,680
Just going to play devils advocate a bit. You’ve obviously done your research and I’d like to understand where you’re coming from a bit more.

When you’re ranking these Ottawa players, are you putting extra weight on the Cup-winning/dynasty years of 1920, 1921, and 1923–and is that why Denneny grades out so low for you? Or do you think Denneny was just not as important in, say, 1924-1926 as well?

Denneny was clearly behind Nighbor as the most important contributor, but doesn’t he have a case for #2 over the whole 1920-1927 stretch, considering that Gerard and Benedict weren’t there for the end?

How important do you think Denneny was at his peak? If you were to rank the Ottawa players in each individual season, does Denneny ever finish #1 or #2 for a season?

(Edit: Meh, sorry the post came out longer than predicted. tl:dr: I can't answer most of your questions)

I wish I had taken more notes when I did my research a year ago, what is left now are the Boucher/Gerard biographies, the Nighbor posts I presented in the Top 100 Project covering every playoffs games of the dynasty, and the intuition/impressions I got when I did the reading.

I read almost the entire dynasty in one month, as one big story, and I can't tell you now whether Denneny was 2nd or 5th in any given season.I'd need to go back and re-read the entire thing, which I will, though not this week for obvious reasons of time.

I guess the essence of my impression of Denneny was presented in your great post from yesterday.Denneny seemed like ''one of the guys''.He didn't stood out for me.Maybe that's revisionism of my own reading experience, but that's all I have left today.He gives me a Brett Hull vibe for sure.If Dallas Stars game reports were written in 1920s newspaper style, Hull would read like Denneny.And I know, he did backcheck and so on, but the vibe it gives me is similar anyway.So it's all about the ambiguity of his contributions, which you covered in your post.Hull or Hatcher? Even if we watch the games, ambiguity can still exist as to who contributes more.

Sure, he was there for the entire 1920-1927 stretch, whereas guys like Benedict and Gerard weren't.Fair enough.But George Boucher was also there for the whole stretch, and I'm not convinced Denneny was more important.Boucher looked like a better playoff performer, and he was the one providing the leadership at the tail end of the dynasty when Gerard wasn't there anymore.And can we rank Boucher over Gerard?

Moreover, since my post you quoted singled out Gerard as needing to be ranked over Denneny in priority, a couple of things:

- Gerard was the one who created the nurturing and winning culture around the franchise.Like a school founder.He helped Boucher and Clancy in particular, and Boucher emulated him as team captain after his retirement, so his spirit lived on.I have Gerard in my Top 5 all-time great captains.A Beliveau and Toews type.I put a lot of weight on this.
- Gerard was a Serge Savard-type, not friendly to spectacular game reports, but instrumental to team success, especially a defensive team like the Senators.
- Gerard also has that great game for Toronto in 1922, giving him four cups in a row.
- Gerard's retirement is excusable moreso than usual injuries.
- Gerard's importance to the community says a lot about his influence.His obituary is impressive; anybody who came into contact with him left with a good impression and respected him.
- In a nutshell, I see Eddie Gerard as a foundational player; incredibly important not just on the ice, but off the ice on the human side.Given Ottawa's ability to replace players, the culture must have something to do with this, where almost every player who played on those teams had a fine career during or afterward.

Some quotes form his obituary (and King Clancy story):

Serge Savard type:

Clint Benedict said:
"The second one to go in a great team, the late Jack Darragh, who could play left or right wing and now Eddie, one of the best defencemen that ever played in front of me.I have yet to see a player who could flip the puck on the end of his stick as Eddie could, it seemed to be a specialty of his own, when circling the nets.I could relax when the puck was on the end of Eddie's stick, knowing it would reach the other end of the rink, when Eddie had it.Believe me when I say I am sorry of his passing."

Nurturing of young players:

King Clancy Story said:
On the defence we had Eddie Gerard, who started his career as a forward with the Ottawa Vics in 1908.He was one of the youngest players ever to take part in a Stanley Cup series, playing for Vics against Wanderers at the age of 17.By the end of the war he was captain of the Senators, and a wonderful defenceman.I must give full credit to Eddie.He helped me more than any other player I ever knew.

Before I'm finished with this narrative, maybe you'll be thinking that far too often I say this player was great and that player was great; that I build too many pedestals for these stars of the past to stand on.But there's no question about Gerard being a fabulous hockey player.They talk about Doug Harvey and Eddie Shore and one or two other legendary defencemen.Gerard was in that class - a brilliant skater and a fine team man.

I mentioned that he helped me a lot.To start with, I played my first game as a professional in a pair of Eddie Gerard's skates.He gave them to my dad one day and otld him to pass them on to me.Eddie wanted me to get off to a good start in hockey, and what better way to do this than to make sure I was wearing a first-class pair of skates.

I got out on the ice, an 18 year old kid with no experience, and there was Gerard coming over to me to point out one thing and another about the game, giving me all the help he could.I have to say he was a wonderful inspiration to me.It was a dream come true to stand out there on the defence beside the one player who'd been my idol for years.It was Gerard who taught me to skate in a straight line.He told me to take the shortest route to the goal, to go straight up the middle.Eddie was a straightaway hockey player; he never took two strides if he could get there in one
.

Leadership:

Georges Boucher said:
"I cannot say how sorry I am to hear of Eddie's death.I have played with many athletes in my time, but no finer type than the same Eddie.He was a grand sportsman, not only a great athlete but a born leader.He was as much a coach as he was a player in the best days of the Ottawa Hockey Club.We all followed his advice and profited by his example."

Sprague Cleghorn said:
"Eddie Gerard was the ideal type of hockey player," said Sprague Cleghorn."When I played on the defence with him for the Senators and we were winning world championships we were a team that didn't have a coach.We didn't need one.Every man on the team knew how to play his position, and Eddie Gerard knew more than any of us.He was a great puck-carrier, a fine blocking defenceman and he had all the courage in the world.He was a brainy hockey player and a natural leader on the ice.I am more than sorry to learn about Eddie's death."
 
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BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,885
13,680
Good quotes, but... I mean I expect a lot of superlatives when a guy dies.

The sheer size of his obituary is a statement in his favor.

And Gerard was actually player-coach prior to the dynasty, so it's not like they came out of nowhere.He wasn't coach anymore in the dynasty, but probably he still acted as one unofficially.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,885
13,680
@overpass sorry for the wall of text, but I should also tell you I value playoffs performances more than the average voter, as well as leadership qualities, so you can make the mental adjustment to my claims.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,831
16,318
I read almost the entire dynasty in one month, as one big story, and I can't tell you now whether Denneny was 2nd or 5th in any given season.I'd need to go back and re-read the entire thing, which I will, though not this week for obvious reasons of time.

out of curiosity what exactly does "read the dynasty" mean?
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,155
14,475
I was going to do a longer discussion on Dit Clapper, but my wife probably doesn't want me to spend tonight writing an essay about a man. (Looks like I ended up writing an essay anyway).

- Argument for: Clapper was one of only ten players who had the minimum three-year waiting period for the Hall of Fame waived. The others? Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Lemieux, Beliveau, Richard, Kelly, Lindsay and Sawchuk - seriously impressive company.
- Counter-argument: the Hall, especially in its earliest days, made some strange decisions. Clapper is by far the weakest player on that list.
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? Not very. It speaks to the fact that he was well-respected, but I don't think we should rest our case on a questionable decision from the 1940's.

- Argument for: he was the first player in NHL history to player 20 seasons. Clapper retired in 1947 and still held that record outright as late as 1965 (Howe tied him the next year).
- Counter-argument: granted, you have to be a good player to play a long time. But we're talking about the top 100 players of all-time here - there should be more to his case than merely hanging on. There was a point in time when Doug Mohns, Dean Prentice, Eric Nesterenko and Ron Stewart had among the longest careers in NHL history - good for them, but that doesn't inherently prove that they were great. I know 20 is a nice round number, but Clapper only played six games (held scoreless) that final year. And the last four years before that, the NHL was watered-down due to WWII.
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? I don't find this one very convincing either. Good for Clapper for having a long career, but it's not a strong argument in the context of this project.

- Argument for: he was the only player in NHL history to be an all-star at multiple positions (not even Red Kelly, who got a lot of mileage for his strong performance as a centre in the second half of his career, can claim this).
- Counter-argument: they aren't really comparable. Maybe Clapper was a bit better as a forward (compared to Kelly), but the Wing/Leaf was far better as a defenseman. Clapper was a four-time all-star on D and a two-time all-star upfront - but is that necessarily better than Mahovlich (nine-time all-star), MacInnis (seven-time), Horton (six-time) or Durnan (six-time)? Are we just rewarding versatility for the sake of versatility here?
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? This is a solid one. I debate whether this is more of a quirk/gimmick, or a key attribute. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with a player spending his whole career at one position - as is the case for the overwhelming majority of star players. But this would speak to Clapper's hockey sense and willingness to do what's needed to support his team.

- Argument for: Clapper is the only Bruin to win three Stanley Cup.
- Counter-argument: the Bruins under-achieved during most of Clapper's career. Shore was criticized for a disappointing playoff resume, and rightfully so, and Clapper shouldn't escape that criticism. I realize that Clapper was at defense for two of these victories, but one goal in 28 playoff games (along with six assists) is unimpressive, even by the standards of that low-scoring era. The Bruins were first in the regular season standings seven times (six outright, once tied) - so walking away with three Stanley Cups is disappointing.
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? There isn't a lot of information about how Clapper, as an individual, performed in the postseason. We know that his teams were generally disappointing, and his offensive numbers usually weren't great. Three Cups is great, but relative to the length of his career, the size of the league, and the strength of his team, I find it underwhelming.

- Argument for: Clapper retired 5th all-time in scoring, behind only Cowley, Howe, Stewart and Blake - with half his career on the blueline.
- Counter-argument: none of those players are even up for discussion yet - that tells you something right there. (They're all great players, but their scoring totals were inflated by longer schedules compared to the previous generation). Clapper was only top ten in scoring twice - and in one of those seasons (1930) he finished behind his centre Cooney Weiland - and that was a weird season where the NHL changed their rules partway through as some teams took advantage of the sudden liberalization of forward passing. Clapper may not have been a major offensive catalyst - he only led his teams in scoring once in his career (1932 - and the Bruins were bad that year - two points out of last place - so perhaps he wasn't good enough to be the lead player on a strong team), and was second on the team once more (the aforementioned 1930 season). Clapper really only has one semi-notable season according to VsX (his score is barely better than MacInnis's - and Chopper spent his whole career as D).
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? Not a great argument - regular season offense isn't his forte.

- Argument for: Clapper was a two-time Hart finalist (a close runner-up to his teammate Cowley in 1941, and third behind Goodfellow and Apps in 1943). Only one player up this round, Bill Durnan, matches this - and one of his seasons as a finalist was during the talent-depleted WWII.
- Counter-argument: his record looks good against the competition - but three players largely pre-dated the Hart, and two more are defensemen (in the post-Norris era), who rarely get consideration. Selanne may have only been a finalist once, but I find his three top-five finishes much more impressive. Also note that Clapper's two Hart nominations came during the days when defensemen were far more likely to get consideration for that trophy, compared to the past 65 years.
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? Superficially this one looks good against this group, but there's a lot of context that needs to be considered here.

- Argument for: partly covered before, but six year-end all-star selections (even if you don't give bonus points for them being at two different positions) is impressive. Three straight first-team selections is excellent.
- Counter-argument: I already explained why this doesn't stand out against half the people up this round (and many of them - Vezina, Malone, Denneny, Benedict - spent most or all of their careers before the NHL awarded year-end all-stars). Besides, I'm not overly impressed by several of his selections. In 1935, when Clapper was on the second team at RW, he only received a single first place vote, compared to Charlie Conacher's 32. Voting for defensemen was a gong show during this era, as there were supposed to be separate votes for LD and RD, but it's obvious from the results that there was a lot of confusion as to who belonged in which position. Also, his 1944 selection can be discounted pretty heavily due to the talent vacuum of WWII.
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? Solid, but with caveats.

Overall I think it's too early for Clapper. There's a lot to like about him - he was healthy, consistent, versatile, and seemed to be a great team player. That would also make him very valuable in an ATD setting. But if we're talking strictly about his historical ranking, unless we're giving a lot of credit for the novelty of him being the NHL's only multi-positional all-star, his resume seems too thin for this round - lots of forgettable years, a low offensive peak (which came during a fluky season), and an underwhelming playoff resume. I also don't know how good he was defensively (he was huge for his era, but a pretty gentle player - but I can't find much about his actual defensive ability). His time will come, but I don't think we're there yet.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,885
13,680
But then, I almost feel bad for saying all of this, because maybe Cy Denneny deserves more.The ambiguity makes it tough to rank him.

Denneny had the reputation of being a sharpshooter even out-west.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,810
16,548
- Argument for: he was the only player in NHL history to be an all-star at multiple positions (not even Red Kelly, who got a lot of mileage for his strong performance as a centre in the second half of his career, can claim this).
- Counter-argument: they aren't really comparable. Maybe Clapper was a bit better as a forward (compared to Kelly), but the Wing/Leaf was far better as a defenseman. Clapper was a four-time all-star on D and a two-time all-star upfront - but is that necessarily better than Mahovlich (nine-time all-star), MacInnis (seven-time), Horton (six-time) or Durnan (six-time)? Are we just rewarding versatility for the sake of versatility here?
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? This is a solid one. I debate whether this is more of a quirk/gimmick, or a key attribute. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with a player spending his whole career at one position - as is the case for the overwhelming majority of star players. But this would speak to Clapper's hockey sense and willingness to do what's needed to support his team.

.

It doesn't change anything on substance (AKA, the underlined), but the argument is based on a faulty premise.
Clapper was the first to do it, but he isn't the only one : Neil Colville did so, too : AST2 as a Center in 1939 and 1940; AST2 as a D-Men in 1948).
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,154
7,284
Regina, SK
Nothing to ever be embarrassed about! The goal of the project is education - not an accurate top-120 list. The people whose lists change the most are often the people who learned the most, and if you’re doing that, you’re doing great!

Can we, as a group, admit that we're embarrassed some players aren't coming up for discussion until way too late, and DO something about it?
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
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Brooklyn
I was going to do a longer discussion on Dit Clapper, but my wife probably doesn't want me to spend tonight writing an essay about a man. (Looks like I ended up writing an essay anyway).

- Argument for: Clapper was one of only ten players who had the minimum three-year waiting period for the Hall of Fame waived. The others? Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Lemieux, Beliveau, Richard, Kelly, Lindsay and Sawchuk - seriously impressive company.
- Counter-argument: the Hall, especially in its earliest days, made some strange decisions. Clapper is by far the weakest player on that list.
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? Not very. It speaks to the fact that he was well-respected, but I don't think we should rest our case on a questionable decision from the 1940's.

- Argument for: he was the first player in NHL history to player 20 seasons. Clapper retired in 1947 and still held that record outright as late as 1965 (Howe tied him the next year).
- Counter-argument: granted, you have to be a good player to play a long time. But we're talking about the top 100 players of all-time here - there should be more to his case than merely hanging on. There was a point in time when Doug Mohns, Dean Prentice, Eric Nesterenko and Ron Stewart had among the longest careers in NHL history - good for them, but that doesn't inherently prove that they were great. I know 20 is a nice round number, but Clapper only played six games (held scoreless) that final year. And the last four years before that, the NHL was watered-down due to WWII.
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? I don't find this one very convincing either. Good for Clapper for having a long career, but it's not a strong argument in the context of this project.

- Argument for: he was the only player in NHL history to be an all-star at multiple positions (not even Red Kelly, who got a lot of mileage for his strong performance as a centre in the second half of his career, can claim this).
- Counter-argument: they aren't really comparable. Maybe Clapper was a bit better as a forward (compared to Kelly), but the Wing/Leaf was far better as a defenseman. Clapper was a four-time all-star on D and a two-time all-star upfront - but is that necessarily better than Mahovlich (nine-time all-star), MacInnis (seven-time), Horton (six-time) or Durnan (six-time)? Are we just rewarding versatility for the sake of versatility here?
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? This is a solid one. I debate whether this is more of a quirk/gimmick, or a key attribute. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with a player spending his whole career at one position - as is the case for the overwhelming majority of star players. But this would speak to Clapper's hockey sense and willingness to do what's needed to support his team.

- Argument for: Clapper is the only Bruin to win three Stanley Cup.
- Counter-argument: the Bruins under-achieved during most of Clapper's career. Shore was criticized for a disappointing playoff resume, and rightfully so, and Clapper shouldn't escape that criticism. I realize that Clapper was at defense for two of these victories, but one goal in 28 playoff games (along with six assists) is unimpressive, even by the standards of that low-scoring era. The Bruins were first in the regular season standings seven times (six outright, once tied) - so walking away with three Stanley Cups is disappointing.
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? There isn't a lot of information about how Clapper, as an individual, performed in the postseason. We know that his teams were generally disappointing, and his offensive numbers usually weren't great. Three Cups is great, but relative to the length of his career, the size of the league, and the strength of his team, I find it underwhelming.

- Argument for: Clapper retired 5th all-time in scoring, behind only Cowley, Howe, Stewart and Blake - with half his career on the blueline.
- Counter-argument: none of those players are even up for discussion yet - that tells you something right there. (They're all great players, but their scoring totals were inflated by longer schedules compared to the previous generation). Clapper was only top ten in scoring twice - and in one of those seasons (1930) he finished behind his centre Cooney Weiland - and that was a weird season where the NHL changed their rules partway through as some teams took advantage of the sudden liberalization of forward passing. Clapper may not have been a major offensive catalyst - he only led his teams in scoring once in his career (1932 - and the Bruins were bad that year - two points out of last place - so perhaps he wasn't good enough to be the lead player on a strong team), and was second on the team once more (the aforementioned 1930 season). Clapper really only has one semi-notable season according to VsX (his score is barely better than MacInnis's - and Chopper spent his whole career as D).
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? Not a great argument - regular season offense isn't his forte.

- Argument for: Clapper was a two-time Hart finalist (a close runner-up to his teammate Cowley in 1941, and third behind Goodfellow and Apps in 1943). Only one player up this round, Bill Durnan, matches this - and one of his seasons as a finalist was during the talent-depleted WWII.
- Counter-argument: his record looks good against the competition - but three players largely pre-dated the Hart, and two more are defensemen (in the post-Norris era), who rarely get consideration. Selanne may have only been a finalist once, but I find his three top-five finishes much more impressive. Also note that Clapper's two Hart nominations came during the days when defensemen were far more likely to get consideration for that trophy, compared to the past 65 years.
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? Superficially this one looks good against this group, but there's a lot of context that needs to be considered here.

- Argument for: partly covered before, but six year-end all-star selections (even if you don't give bonus points for them being at two different positions) is impressive. Three straight first-team selections is excellent.
- Counter-argument: I already explained why this doesn't stand out against half the people up this round (and many of them - Vezina, Malone, Denneny, Benedict - spent most or all of their careers before the NHL awarded year-end all-stars). Besides, I'm not overly impressed by several of his selections. In 1935, when Clapper was on the second team at RW, he only received a single first place vote, compared to Charlie Conacher's 32. Voting for defensemen was a gong show during this era, as there were supposed to be separate votes for LD and RD, but it's obvious from the results that there was a lot of confusion as to who belonged in which position. Also, his 1944 selection can be discounted pretty heavily due to the talent vacuum of WWII.
- How good of a pro-Clapper argument is this? Solid, but with caveats.

Overall I think it's too early for Clapper. There's a lot to like about him - he was healthy, consistent, versatile, and seemed to be a great team player. That would also make him very valuable in an ATD setting. But if we're talking strictly about his historical ranking, unless we're giving a lot of credit for the novelty of him being the NHL's only multi-positional all-star, his resume seems too thin for this round - lots of forgettable years, a low offensive peak (which came during a fluky season), and an underwhelming playoff resume. I also don't know how good he was defensively (he was huge for his era, but a pretty gentle player - but I can't find much about his actual defensive ability). His time will come, but I don't think we're there yet.

I think it's too early for Clapper too. But then I could say that about most of the players here... Someone other than Horton, MacInnis, Vezina, and Selanne has to make the top 5... And compared to the rest, Clapper doesn't look all that bad to me right now.

I dunno... maybe I have a change of heart on Malone
 
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Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,779
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Can we, as a group, admit that we're embarrassed some players aren't coming up for discussion until way too late, and DO something about it?

Why?

Seems that those who constantly push offence - VsX(offensive version only).

The counters from goals, assists, points, honours and awards, longevity - counting seasons, etc.

Are being exposed.

Ultimate irony, MF being criticized because he used videos from the early days to appreciate players.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Can we, as a group, admit that we're embarrassed some players aren't coming up for discussion until way too late, and DO something about it?

If there’s a push for it, I’m open to expanding the players eligible in each round and have been looking at which breaks I’ll use if there is a push for it.

I’ve heard two specific requests - one from someone who has seen the aggregate list and one from someone who hasn’t.

Unfortunately I can’t just make the aggregate list different just to accommodate specific players that any of you may feel deserves to have come up. That would be... problematic.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
If there’s a push for it, I’m open to expanding the players eligible in each round and have been looking at which breaks I’ll use if there is a push for it.

I’ve heard two specific requests - one from someone who has seen the aggregate list and one from someone who hasn’t.

Unfortunately I can’t just make the aggregate list different just to accommodate specific players that any of you may feel deserves to have come up. That would be... problematic.

IMO, anything you can do to expand the pool from the current 10-11 to 13-15 in future rounds would be a good thing. But then I'm pretty sure you already know I think that.
 
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quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
IMO, anything you can do to expand the pool from the current 10-11 to 13-15 in future rounds would be a good thing. But then I'm pretty sure you already know I think that.

You’re the request that hasn’t seen the aggregate list. If there are more people who haven’t seen it that want to expand the pool, I’m open to it, but it would have to be based on voting breaks.

The appeal for Firsov or Fedorov or specific others embarrassing us by not being eligible doesn’t do it for me, because y’all made the aggregate list.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,155
14,475
It doesn't change anything on substance (AKA, the underlined), but the argument is based on a faulty premise.
Clapper was the first to do it, but he isn't the only one : Neil Colville did so, too : AST2 as a Center in 1939 and 1940; AST2 as a D-Men in 1948).

Good catch. If anything, that slightly weakens Clapper's argument, as what he accomplished wasn't quite as novel.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,885
13,680
I'd be willing to go as far as having an open field, every player is eligible.So obviously, I'd also be in favor of a larger pool.

Let people push for who they think deserve to go in.
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,810
16,548
No issue with slightly expanding. Not 20 players or anything like that... I'd just like to have the option of not agreeing to the idea that Joe Malone is anywhere near the 79th best player of all-time. Which is exactly what I'll be doing this round.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,451
17,873
Connecticut
So some voters don't like the way things are going, so we should change the rules? Fix the problem? Because they know better?

I stand opposed to this power play for a bigger slice of the say. Let the rule of law and democracy itself be upheld! The semi- knowledgeable were allowed in, now we must live with their (ludicrous) decisions.
 

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