Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 14

[seventieslord]

The first statement is wrong. Neil Colville did that, too, at a tougher position (generally speaking) as a forward as well.
The second statement is relevant only if there's a premium to be a Bruin.

Goodfellow and Siebert too. I bet I'm missing another.

 

[MXD]

Goodfellow and Siebert too. I bet I'm missing another.

Pretty sure Seibert's only AST's were on D : however, you're 100% right for Goodfellow.

EDIT : Or maybe not?

 

[MXD]

Never knew that (or forgot it). I stand corrected. And embarrassed.

Shit happens

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yes, Durnan did beat out real competition for the 1st Team AS in 1947, 1949, and 1950.

Should we care that in 1948, the only season in there when Durnan didn't lead the league in GAA, he finished 3rd behind Broda (GAA leader among starting goalies) and Brimsek?

Anyway, Durnan's 1949 looks to be a legit great season, as he was Hart runner up.

So what happened?

As his team got weaker, did not make the playoffs in 1948 due to injuries, Durnan magically became better as the NHL became stronger.

This leaves two explanations.

Durnan was always good, the Canadiens never replaced him. Just coincidence that Durnan entered the NHL during WWII when he had the edge in negotiating.

Your 1st AST nonsense is simply a poor attempt at denigrating an excellent goalie. The voting was done by the six NHL coaches from 1946-47 onwards, previously from 1943-44 you had weighed media voting:

Award & All-Star Voting (1912-present)

Two distinct formats, eliminating bias and self-interest yet clearly choosing Durnan as the 1st AST goalie, six out of seven years.

 

[seventieslord]

Pretty sure Seibert's only AST's were on D : however, you're 100% right for Goodfellow.

I didn't say Seibert...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Goodfellow and Siebert too. I bet I'm missing another.

Not seeing that.

When were they all-stars as forwards?

 

[MXD]

I didn't say Seibert...

And I meant to say Siebert. Babe.

Is there any difference in pronounciation?

 

[Canadiens1958]

And I meant to say Siebert. Babe.

Is there any difference in pronounciation?

Traditional English, yes. SEE - bert, SIGH-bert.

 

[MXD]

...what a Pejorative Sluredly backwards language.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Is there evidence that he performed at a noticeably worse level in his first three 1st Team All-Star seasons than his 4th, 5th, and 6th 1st Team All-Star selections?

If we can’t give the value of those seasons context based on his competition, can we give it context based on himself? I’ve never read anyone suggest his game had improved substantially from 1947-onward - just that the proclamations of him as the best goaltender ever had increased (likely with the confirmation that he could replicate his performance in a stronger league).

See, this is the key point. If Durnan's war-time AST selections and reputation is being kicked to the curb, it's essentially being suggested that he was much better at age 33 and 34 than he was at age 29 and 30. That seems rather unlikely.

Without getting caught up too much is awards voting evidence, I think the overall takeaway ought to be that Durnan was arguably the best goaltender in hockey for a 7 season period of time. It's unfortunate that Broda and Brimsek were not in the NHL for a couple of those seasons, but there's no reason to think they would have completely buried Durnan if they had been. They didn't do so in several years when all were in the league together.

Furthermore, Brimsek is already listed. The group as a whole is in agreement that he was better than Durnan (which I agree with), so obviously the non-trophy counting evidence has indeed been examined and it was concluded that it overstates Durnan's case in relation to Brimsek. Broda is not available, and one could certainly argue he should have come up along with Durnan for comparison, but nothing that can be done about that. If Durnan isn't worthy of being high on the ballot this round, it makes more sense to explain why he's inferior to the other candidates than to explain why he ought to be behind Brimsek. He already is behind him.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I know it's rough because it's a binary response...but a still-cooling-on-the-ledge Bill Durnan was not mentioned in that oft-referenced 1950 CP poll...it does mention Turk Broda, a contemporary, active goalie getting one vote...

Just saying it to say it. If Durnan really was as dominant, or the most dominant goalie of his era or all time, boy, would it ever be fresh on the voters' minds...

Very small potatoes...but it might be a little tiny, baby puzzle piece to keep in the back of your head...

 

[seventieslord]

Pretty sure Seibert's only AST's were on D : however, you're 100% right for Goodfellow.

EDIT : Or maybe not?

Yeah, maybe not. The failing seventieslord was spreading fake news. Sorry folks. SAD!!!

 

[MXD]

Yeah, maybe not. The failing seventieslord was spreading fake news. Sorry folks. SAD!!!

Goodfellow did get some considerable Hart support at both positions, which is possibly why you were mixed up (and so did I, because I was 100% certain for Goodfellow once you mentionned it)

 

[Michael Farkas]

Seventies, they were talking about Reg Noble on Fox & Friends this morning...

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Fair question. To review my opinion on this.

I think its meaningful that when they played together Malone was subservient to Lalonde, especially in the POs. Malone probably would have filled the same role as Denneny if he was on the Senators, so I should at least take away the solidly part of my comment.

I'm not sure that Denneny was the better RS producer though. Cy had 12 meaningful years after he arrived at 24. Malone had 11 after he arrived at 21. Malone lead his league in scoring 3 times, and was top two another two times. Cy was 1st once and 2nd 5 times (he had a third too, but that same season Malone was fourth and played 4 less games so that's probably a wash). Cy only had 1 injury shortened campaign though whereas Malone had 2 and played 1 less meaningful season so Cy does add career value.

They are very close upon review, I think I'd take Malone for having done more with less though in terms of teammates in the RS.

Does Cy's superior PO record put him over the top? Does anyone with a copy of Trail of the SC have any info on Malone's SC play? He produced offensively in 11/12, but Jack McDonald led the team in scoring over the 2 games. He dominated game 1 in 12/13 but didn't play in game 2, not sure why.

Malone's Stanley Cup play in 1912 and 1913 is practically irrelevant, unfortunately. Quebec played challengers from Moncton of the Maritime league in 1912. This was a complete mismatch. Louis Berlinquette is the only Moncton player whose name is at all recognizable to history. It was the same story the next season, Sydney being the hapless challengers in this year. The book doesn't state why Malone didn't play in the second game, but I would suspect him (and Rusty Crawford) sat out in order to possibly make the second game remotely competitive. Quebec still won the second game 6-2, but at least that's better than the 14-3 laugher in the first one, in which Malone scored 9 goals.

Victoria of the PCHA challenged Quebec, however the Bulldogs refused to put the Stanley Cup on the line unless Victoria travelled to Quebec for the series, which they would not. The teams played a three-game exhibition, which Victoria won 2-1, decisively winning the third game. There is actually no mention at all of this in The Trail, so I can't provide any further details.

However, we can credit Malone for heroics in the regular season finale in 1912. Quebec and Ottawa were tied in the standings with one game left to play; the winner would be the league champion*. Ottawa led the game in the late stages until Malone scored in the final minute to keep the Bulldogs hopes alive. He then scored the winning goal in OT. [*The result of this game left Quebec at 10-8 for the season, Ottawa at 9-8. The Senators had to replay a protested game against the Wanderers from earlier in the season in hopes of forcing a playoff against Quebec. They lost, and Quebec were the champions.]

Looking at the NHA as a whole, 1912 looks to be a somewhat weak year personnel-wise. The top eight scorers only features three HOFers, including Malone. 1913 was much stronger. Lalonde and Hyland returned from the West, Frank Nighbor made his debut, as did Punch Broadbent. Malone and his new teammate Tommy Smith were a dominant 1-2 in the scoring race this season, in spite of increased competition. Quebec went 16-4 and easily won the league.

To run down the rest of Malone's NHA career...

Tommy Smith kept his scoring barrage going in 1914 (39 goals to easily lead the league), but Malone fell back to the pack (24 goals). Malone did play three less games though, and could have possibly been nursing an injury at some point. The NHA had largely the same personnel this season (Quebec did lose Jack McDonald to Onatrio), and Quebec battled with Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa for first place in a close race (Ontario and the Wanderers were both lousy). They came up a game short.

Malone missed 8 games injured in 1915, and Quebec fared poorly in his absence, unable to produce much offense. Tommy Smith (who split the season between Ontario and Quebec) again won the scoring title handily. The Trail mentions that he returned to Quebec mid-season (Malone's missed games were in the middle of the year), so the Bulldogs were probably without either of them for a few games. Pro-rated, Malone projects to be around fourth place in the scoring race. Quebec was a decent third place at 11-9, and might have won the league had Malone not been hurt.

Quebec returned the same lineup for 1916, but were not so strong in this season. Malone battled with Lalonde and Denneny for the scoring lead, but Tommy Smith fell way off. The Bulldogs finished in third place, well behind the league winners Montreal.

1917 was a great year for Malone, as he tied Frank Nighbor for the scoring title, but Quebec narrowly missed qualifying for the playoffs, which pitted the first half schedule winner versus the second half winner in this season. This was the point where the Bulldogs began to fall apart as a franchise. It's probably a testament to Malone that he almost got them into the playoffs. Ottawa and Montreal had much better goaltending and more star power on their rosters by this point.

This encapsulates Malone's NHA career. I'll review his NHL seasons later on and post anything interesting.

 

[blogofmike]

Furthermore, Brimsek is already listed. The group as a whole is in agreement that he was better than Durnan (which I agree with), so obviously the non-trophy counting evidence has indeed been examined and it was concluded that it overstates Durnan's case in relation to Brimsek.

It's fair (and apparently not uncommon) to have that opinion, but if the two of them hypothetically had the same calibre of backup goalie, we could see how they did compared to those backups.

Goaltender	Team	Year	GP	W	L	T	GAA
Frank Brimsek	Boston	1946	34	16	14	4	3.26
Paul Bibeault	Boston	1946	16	8	4	4	2.81
Paul Bibeault	Montreal	1946	10	4	6	0	3.00
Bill Durnan	Montreal	1946	40	24	11	5	2.60

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Not enough sample size to conclude that Durnan > Brimsek based off of this alone, but the Transitive Property of Paul Bibeault at least suggests that it wasn't necessarily superb defense that was driving those low GAA totals in Montreal.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

A woefully insufficient sample-size to make any significant conclusion at all. Exhibits constructed like this were used by two or three of the more clueless Chicago fans (in 2015) to assert that Scott Darling was a superior option to Corey Crawford.

To return to the bigger picture of the nominees, I thought I'd add some passing thoughts- and hope that I can return later to add some details-

My primary concern this Round is Selänne. I re-read Vote 4 of the Wingers project. At the end of that discussion, that particular Panel placed Selänne ahead of Mahovlich- Denneny- Moore... Now, it's good that we break our own ground here, and not make derivative conclusions-- but I think that their conclusion that Selänne should lead our quartet of Wingers was the right one.

Selänne's NHL Centers from the time he broke into the league until about age 30: Zhamnov, Zhamnov, Zhamnov, Zhamnov, Rucchin, Rucchin, Rucchin, Rucchin and... Matt Cullen, I guess(?) And now I ask (rhetorically), who was centering Denneny and Moore for those equivalent years? Hey, Mahovlich, too.

I feel like Dit Clapper deserves a serious perusal- and not just a process-pass somewhere onto the middle-to-lower half of our ballots. His NHL career got off to a slow start (by the standards of 'top-100' players), but then he has that in common with Al MacInnis. I won't go as far as to say he's elite at TWO positions- but I suppose that's just semantics. He was a very good Winger- and an absolutely elite Defenseman who (it was earlier pointed out) was uniquely recognized as a Hall-of-Famer while still active. Yeah- I love my career-value Defensemen.

I'm past the point of thinking I'll change any minds on the Vézina-Benedict comparison. Maybe the rest of you have it right, all along. I still remain convinced that Vézina's more classic (for its time) netminding style shaped much of the prose-praise asserting his superiority. I also think that Benedict's success with the Maroons points to the fact that he was more than an Ottawa-system beneficiary. [But then- I said that about Plante's stint in St Louis, too- and y'all placed Plante lower than I would've.]

Should get deeper into Malone, as well... and give him a fair hearing- but it still feels too soon for him.

I took a look at Durnan's place in the 'Goaltenders' project. He came up earlier than some had anticipated given his placing on the group's Composite List. By the time the discussion ran its course, though, he dropped three placings (among goalies) from where he was preliminarily. History repeating?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Possibly. Stewart appears to be a historically poor defensive player.

I would also add in the fact that Stewart was an awful playmaker. In an era where assists were starting to be recorded more regularly, he really didn't get a lot. Malone's goals to assists ratio looks more like a guy like Lalonde in his own time, while Stewart was an outlier.

As point producers, I think it looks really similar to their goals records: Malone looks better in pure peak/prime (98 to 91), Stewart pulls even in the long run (88 to 87). So I think it's fair that Malone's up for voting sooner. Still, like Denneny/Malone, it looks like Stewart may be a standout the moment he's up for voting.

To be clear, this "VsX equivalence" that you use for pre-1926 players doesn't make adjustments for the low number of assists given out?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A woefully insufficient sample-size to make any significant conclusion at all. Exhibits constructed like this were used by two or three of the more clueless Chicago fans (in 2015) to assert that Scott Darling was a superior option to Corey Crawford.

To return to the bigger picture of the nominees, I thought I'd add some passing thoughts- and hope that I can return later to add some details-

My primary concern this Round is Selänne. I re-read Vote 4 of the Wingers project. At the end of that discussion, that particular Panel placed Selänne ahead of Mahovlich- Denneny- Moore... Now, it's good that we break our own ground here, and not make derivative conclusions-- but I think that their conclusion that Selänne should lead our quartet of Wingers was the right one.

Selänne's NHL Centers from the time he broke into the league until about age 30: Zhamnov, Zhamnov, Zhamnov, Zhamnov, Rucchin, Rucchin, Rucchin, Rucchin and... Matt Cullen, I guess(?) And now I ask (rhetorically), who was centering Denneny and Moore for those equivalent years? Hey, Mahovlich, too.

I feel like Dit Clapper deserves a serious perusal- and not just a process-pass somewhere onto the middle-to-lower half of our ballots. His NHL career got off to a slow start (by the standards of 'top-100' players), but then he has that in common with Al MacInnis. I won't go as far as to say he's elite at TWO positions- but I suppose that's just semantics. He was a very good Winger- and an absolutely elite Defenseman who (it was earlier pointed out) was uniquely recognized as a Hall-of-Famer while still active. Yeah- I love my career-value Defensemen.

I'm past the point of thinking I'll change any minds on the Vézina-Benedict comparison. Maybe the rest of you have it right, all along. I still remain convinced that Vézina's more classic (for its time) netminding style shaped much of the prose-praise asserting his superiority. I also think that Benedict's success with the Maroons points to the fact that he was more than an Ottawa-system beneficiary. [But then- I said that about Plante's stint in St Louis, too- and y'all placed Plante lower than I would've.]

Should get deeper into Malone, as well... and give him a fair hearing- but it still feels too soon for him.

I took a look at Durnan's place in the 'Goaltenders' project. He came up earlier than some had anticipated given his placing on the group's Composite List. By the time the discussion ran its course, though, he dropped three placings (among goalies) from where he was preliminarily. History repeating?

I'm not really thrilled to vote for Selanne at this point, myself, but it looks like he has a great chance at #4 on my ballot by default.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

See, this is the key point. If Durnan's war-time AST selections and reputation is being kicked to the curb, it's essentially being suggested that he was much better at age 33 and 34 than he was at age 29 and 30. That seems rather unlikely.

Without getting caught up too much is awards voting evidence, I think the overall takeaway ought to be that Durnan was arguably the best goaltender in hockey for a 7 season period of time. It's unfortunate that Broda and Brimsek were not in the NHL for a couple of those seasons, but there's no reason to think they would have completely buried Durnan if they had been. They didn't do so in several years when all were in the league together.

Furthermore, Brimsek is already listed. The group as a whole is in agreement that he was better than Durnan (which I agree with), so obviously the non-trophy counting evidence has indeed been examined and it was concluded that it overstates Durnan's case in relation to Brimsek. Broda is not available, and one could certainly argue he should have come up along with Durnan for comparison, but nothing that can be done about that. If Durnan isn't worthy of being high on the ballot this round, it makes more sense to explain why he's inferior to the other candidates than to explain why he ought to be behind Brimsek. He already is behind him.

The thing with Bill Durnan is that, when our list is finished, he'll probably have the worst combination of longevity and playoff performances vs expectations of anyone on the entire list. So his case really rests on his regular season peak performance, and I just think there is a lot of unknown there.

Against basically zero competition, he was a 1st Team AS 3 times in a row. Then against real competition, he was a 1st Team AS 3 of 4 years, the years that just so happen to correspond with when he led the league in GAA. Newspaper articles at the time are split as to whether Durnan is actually the best in the league.

____________________

IMO, the best case with Durnan is that he was just as good as Frank Brimsek for 7 years (albeit with less playoff success). But shouldn't that make him go much farther behind Brimsek than something like 10 spots (and only one spot among all-time goalies)?

____________________

Among short career goalies, Dryden > Gardiner > Durnan in terms of playoff performances. Also note that it seems to have been more universal (based on contemporary press) that Gardiner was the best in the league than Durnan was.

___________________

Durnan vs Vezina? Vezina was probably the best goalie in the world for large parts of 16 years. Durnan was possibly the best goalie in the world for 7 years.

_____________________

Durnan vs Benedict? I'm probably lower on Benedict than most here - I think that the case for Benedict relies mostly on wins and GAA, and Alec Connell sure did well in those categories when he replaced Benedict in Ottawa. Although Benedict's performance with the Maroons does reinforce his greatness. But how great? I think contemporary opinion had Durnan closer to Brimsek than Benedict to Vezina. But close enough to make up for the fact that Benedict was a great goalie for twice as long as Durnan and had more playoff success? I don't know.

_____________________

Durnan vs the defensemen and forwards here - you have to really value Durnan's regular season peak to have him ahead of them. The only other guy this round with longevity as lacking as Durnan is Dickie Moore, and his playoff record is much better than Durnan's.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

THIS IS THE FULL COMPARISON OF VEZINA AND BENEDICT THAT I DID IN THE GOALIES PROJECT. I ALREADY POSTED THE VEZINA-SPECIFIC STUFF LAST ROUND

Vezina and Benedict Part 1 (contemporary opinions)

Attempting to create a chronology of the two, based mostly on newspaper accounts from the Goalies before 1950 thread. This post focuses on accounts from their careers. I'll make another post on what people where saying about them in the decades after they retired

Early in his career, Benedict was already considered just as good as Percy Leseuer, the greatest goalie in Ottawa history to that point

It is whispered around hockey circles that Benedict, the great Ottawa goalkeeper who some say is just as good as Percy Leseuer, is dissatisfied with his position in the capital...

Ottawa Citizen, Dec 2, 1913

1910s: Vezina was considered the best goalie in the NHA/NHL and likely the world (commentary was by Nalyd Psycho)

There ???(I assume "is a") strong possibility that the National Hockey assiciation will this year be without the services of its most brilliant goalkeeper, Vezina of the Canadiens.

This paper was poorly scanned, but it was about a proposed deal that when Lalonde was playing out West, Vezina would be traded straight up for him to bring Lalonde back to Montreal.

During the intermission he hustled George Vezina, recognized as the best goal-keeper in the NHA, into one of the Guards uniforms.

This was from an a game where NHA all-stars played an army team. For the third period, the coach of the army team (Vezina's coach on the Habs.) snuck Vezina into the army teams goal. Here is the scoring per period:
1st: 4-1 NHA
2nd: 5-1 NHA
3rd: 3-1 Army

George Vezina, the brilliant goal-keeper of the Canadiens, often said to be as good as two men, jumped into prominence when he joined the Habitants in 1911. Born in Chicoutimi twenty-eight years ago, Vezina started playing goals when a youngster. Manager George Kennedy witnessed a game in which he was playing in 1910, and immediately signed him up. Ever since he has played in front of the nets for the Flying Frenchmen, and today is one of the highest payed goal-tenders in the business.

Vezina, George: Goalkeeper, 28 years old, and from Chicoutimi. Joined the Canadiens in 1910 and made good on the jump. The most consistent goalkeeper in the N.H.A. and as clean a player as the game knows. His success is largely consequent upon the fact that he attends stricktly to business all the time, and never tries to pull any funny stuff.

...the goaltenders, who have demonstrated that they can stop the hard shots a la George Vezina and Hugh Lehman.

From a Regina paper, infers that Lehman is the class of the West and Vezina of the East.

Georges Vezina, goalkeeper of the Montreal Canadiens, who is conceded to be the best net guardian in the game.

early 1920s: Opinion seems to be split between Benedict and Vezina:

Another development at Ottawa was the signing of Clint Benedict to occupy the nets for the Ottawa team during the forthcoming season Clint is generally regarded as the second best to George Vezina of the Flying Frenchmen.

The Senators and Benedict continued their roll into the 1920-1921 season. For the second consecutive year, Benedict was lauded as the best netminder in the NHL, even though Ottawa had dropped to second in the standings.

He certainly impressed a young rookie who joined the Senators before the 1921-1922 season – Francis “King” Clancy.
“He was superb. A lot of people say that Georges Vezina was the greatest goaltender in those early days of hockey, but if you look at the records you’ll see that Clint Benedict…had a better average.”

-Great Goaltenders: Stars of Hockey’s Golden Age by Jim Barber (note that Clancy appears to be referred to GAA).

Benedict was heavily criticized in 1924 for his alcohol-influenced failings during the playoffs, and was sold to the expansion Montreal Maroons

It wasn't until the Ottawa Senators were bounced from the first round of the Stanley Cup playoffs that team brass came down hard on their goalie.

Throughout the season, he had tested their patience and created dissension in the dressing room.

In January, they said, he showed up so drunk for an overnight train trip to Toronto, he had to be carried to his berth by a couple of teammates.

At least twice in February he turned up late for practice. Too "ill" to suit up for a game later in the month, he was replaced by a seldom-used backup goalie who lost an important game. The team doctor told management liquor was the cause. Fans were told he was fighting the flu.

On the day of the Senators' first playoff game in mid-March, management said, he had beer sent up to his hotel room, where he drank steadily all afternoon. Still woozy when he strapped on the pads that evening, he let in two soft goals in a 3-0 loss, one of them from centre ice.

Later in the series, he ignored the coach's instructions to go to his hotel room early and spent the night knocking back beers with friends.

With the team now eliminated for the season, management decided it was time to offer the goalie to other teams to see who or what they could get in return.

When the goalie got wind of the plan, he sued the team for salary he said he was owed. The team made a counter-claim for breach of contract.

And then all hell broke loose in the community.

The Ottawa Senators, it seems, have a history of rocky relationships with their goalies. That story took place 84 years ago, and the goalie was Clint Benedict, a future hall-of-famer considered one of the game's great innovators and the first pro goalie to wear a mask during a game.

Ottawa Citizen, June 23, 2008

At the time of Vezina's death in 1925, he was considered the best goalie of all-time

2019 NOTE: After a close look at the voting data last round, Vezina beat Benedict 5-2 in votes.

Number One Team- Goal, Georges Vezina; defence, Sprague Cleghorn and Hod Stuart (deceased); center, Frank Nighbor; right wing, Allan, Scotty Davidson; left wing, Tommy Phillips (deceased)

"This was from a MacLeans article about the best Canadian hockey players. The article I'm quoting was critical of the list for East coast bias. And there were many things on the three teams that raised my eyebrows. But it is still useful to see how some regarded Vezina while he was alive." - Nalyd Psycho

After being sold to the Maroons, Benedict resumed his excellent play and was a key part in the team winning the Stanley Cup over his old team in 1926

He shutout his old team Ottawa in the final to win the NHA championships and shut out Victoria of the WCHL twice to win the Stanley Cup in 1926:

The trade rejuvenated Benedict. He played six years for Montreal, leading them to a Stanley Cup in their second season -- still a record for an expansion team -- by allowing only three goals in four playoff games against Victoria in the finals. In doing so, he became the first goalie to win the Cup for two teams.

The Ottawa Citizen, June 23, 2008

When Rangers and Maroons players got together to celebrate the Rangers' Stanley Cup win after the game Saturday night, Clint Benedict, maroons goalie, and one of the heros of the series, and Frank Boucher, whose goals brought the championship to the Rangers camp, went into a prolonged fanning bee at one end of the banquet hall.... Frankie put Benedict in an embarrassing position by recalling the times when, as a young player, he was want to listen to the them-Ottawa goalkeeper, from whom Frankie picked up many useful tricks.

Montreal Gazette, April 18, 1928

After Benedict's NHL career ended in 1930, he and Georges Vezina were considered the "kings of the net" and some did prefer Benedict

This article summarizes Benedict's career after it was announced he was sent down to the IHL to end his NHL career:

Benedict has been rated by many shrewd observers the greatest goaler hockey has ever known, over a period of years
...
Tall, and apparently gawky and awkward, with a shambling style of skating, Benedict possessed an eagle eye and the quickness of a cat. In the days when goalers were not allowed to drop to the ice to stop shots, Benedict was dubbed "Tumbling Clint," because he insisted on going to his knees to stop shots, and the records of those distant days indicate that he was penalized more than once for thus breaking the playing rules. Later, when it became permissible for a goaler to drop to any position he wished to stop a shot, Benedict became almost unbeatable. He and the late Georges Vezina were the admitted kings of the nets.
...
Known as one of the game's great "money players," Benedict has figured in half a score of play-off series.

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, Nov 13, 1930

Clint Benedict, one of the greatest goaltenders the game has ever produced... (will return to the NHL as a ref)

The return of Benedict to the league that he helped to make great will be welcomed all over the circuit

Ottawa Citizen, Dec 5, 1931

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vezina and Benedict 2 - Legacies

I'm focusing on opinions of people through the early 1950s - what people who saw them play thought about them after their careers.

The belief that Vezina was the best of his era seems fairly widespread

When you talk about goaltenders, you have to start with Georges Vezina. By an almost unanimous vote of hockey people, he was the greatest the game has ever had. I remember him fairly well.

In 1918 when I broke into the National League with Toronto, Vezina was with Les Canadians. He was near the end of his career, but was still a marvel in the nets, as I found out the first time I skated in on him.

I thought I had him beat, I thought I had a cinch goal, but he had figured exactly what I was going to do, and brushed aside the shot, as easily as you'd strike a match.

Vezina was a big fellow... I'd say he was about five feet 11 inches tall, without his skates on and he looked even taller in uniform because he always wore a red and blue toque. He had big hands and he used an exceptionally long stick.
...
He played a stand-up game, sliding from post to post, making save that seemed impossible by outguessing the puck carriers.

That was his strong point. Like all great goalers, he studied the styles of every forward in the league. He could sense what one of them would do under a given set of circumstances and was usually prepared. He guess wrong sometimes, of course, but not often.
...
I played against Vezina for three or four years. Many times he broke my heart by turning back what looked like a certain score. He was a real master. He had perfect co-ordination and an uncanny instinct.

Jack Adams then went on to say that due to changes in the nature of the position, Vezina might not actually be any more effective than the best recent goalies (Charlie Gardiner, John Ross Roach, and Tiny Thompson were named). Marty Barry was present for the interview and this is his reaction:

Adams was now striking at one of the legends of hockey. Marty Barry, sitting on a rubber table next to the Honey Walker, was startled. Never before had he heard anyone question Vezina's superiority. He was too surprised to interrupt and Adams went on (about the changes in the game making a goalie's job harder since Vezina's time)
...
"I see what you mean," said Barry, only half convinced.

The Sunday Sun, Feb 1, 1936

I think it's clear that rightly or wrongly by 1936 - 10 years after Vezina's death - "conventional wisdom" considered him the best goalie of the era - better than Clint Benedict, Hugh Lehman, or Hap Holmes.

Later, in 1953:

Jack Adams said he thought that the only old-timer who might measure up to the to the modern goalers was the immortal Georges Vezina himself.
...
But Vezina played in the days of parallel passing and kitty-bar-the-door when a lot of shots were fired from far out. We doubt if he would be as successful today unless he changed his style. But we think that Vezina, Clint Benedict, George Haimsworth, Roy Worters, and other great goalers of the past would be about to adapt to the changing conditions. They were only as good as they had to be.

Montreal Gazette, Mar 9, 1953

There are some who would picked Benedict, however

The boys were talking about goaltending greats in the aftergame discussion at Cornell last night and Jim McCafffrey was firm in his stand that Benedict was tops.... JP is willing to settle for Frank Brimsek among the present-day puck stoppers and calls Jack Crawford the best defenseman of all...

Ottawa Cititzen, March 10, 1943

In 1948, Kenny McKenize, hockey journalist and co-founder of The Hockey News called Benedict the greatest goaltender of all-time. He recalled a save Benedict made on Duke Keats that made Keats "so mad that he couldn't speak for 2 hours after the game."

Vancouver Sun, Oct 13, 1948

Did Benedict's Innovative Style Cause him to be Underrated by many who watched him play?

Nobody was a more accomplished faker than Clint Benedict. When Benedict needed to drop to ice level to make a save, he simply improvised a fall and then would innocently tell the official, "Sorry, I slipped." Fans of opposing teams rightfully grew disgusted with the prostrate Benedict and his attempts to circumvent the rules. "Bring your bed, Benny." was commonly heard in arenas wherever he played.

The Record, Kitchener-Ont, Oct 12, 1995

Hard numbers tell only so much of his story, however. Where Vézina played a conventional stand-up style that left his pads dry at game's end, Benedict was the Dominik Hasek of his time, flopping in his crease like a fish out of water.
Every modern-day goaltender owes a little of their butterfly or pad-stacking technique to Benedict, whose dropping to the ice bullied the new-born NHL to introduce a rule in 1918 allowing a goaler to leave his skates.
Indeed, he had been nicknamed "Praying Benny" by sarcastic Toronto fans for his habit of falling to his knees, allegedly to thank the Lord during a scramble or after a save.
"If you did it a little bit sneaky and made it look accidental,you could fall on the puck without being penalized," Benedict said in 1964.

Montreal Gazette, June 2, 2008

It was only remembered by a few hard-case hockey fans that Benedict, who died in a hospital at the age of 82, helped to literally change the face of modern hockey.

Despite all the credit given to Jacques Plante of the Montreal Canadiens for bringing the face mask to hockey goaltending in the 1960s, it was in fact Benedict who wore the first mask seen in the National Hockey League - in 1922.

He was also among the goalies who eventually forced NHL governors to allow them to drop to the ice to stop a shot - then forbidden by the rules.

"You had to be sneaky," Benedict once recalled. "You'd make a move, fake losing your balance or footing and put the officials on the spot - did I fall or did I intentionally go down?"

"It was fun because you were playing games with the officials."

The mask was more shortlived... "I wore it the next game and we lost. I blamed the mask and threw it away."

The Leader Post, Nov 22, 1976

 

[The Macho King]

How much of the rep can be explained by the Senators and Maroons folding? Just a general comment - players on teams that cease to exist have a huge uphill battle to get recognized.

That being said, Benedict is probably 3rd-4th most important player on that Sens dynasty, while Vezina didnt have nearly the supporting cast. Other than Lalonde, who was on those Montreal teams? Oh yeah and Cleghorn after 1921.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Where does Dit Clapper fit in?

Norris record Tim Horton

53-54: 4th
54-55: 6th
60-61: 6th
61-62: 5th
62-63: 3rd
63-64: 2nd
64-65: 4th
65-66: 9th
66-67: 4th
67-68: 3rd
68-69: 2nd
70-71: 12th
72-73: 9th

Norris record Al MacInnis

86-87: 6th
88-89: 3rd
89-90: 2nd
90-91: 2nd
93-94: 3rd
97-98: 8th
98-99: 1st
99-00: 8th
00-01: 7th
02-03: 2nd

All-Star record of Dit Clapper (D only):

37-38: 12th
38-39: 2nd
39-40: 1st
40-41: 1st
41-42: 6th
42-43: 6th
43-44: 4th
44-45: 9th

Overall records:

Horton: 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 6, 6, 9, 9, 12
MacInnis: 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 6, 7, 8
Clapper: 1, 1, 2, 4*,6, 6', 9*, 12
*war year
'partial war year

Clapper had a fantastic 3-year peak as a defenseman from 1938-39 to 1940-41, but he doesn't look to have been at that level ever again.
________________________

Compare to Brian Leetch, Bill Gadsby, and Borje Salming (3 more defensemen who finished about Clapper in the defensemen project):

Gadsby: 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 11
Salming: 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 10, 14
Leetch: 1, 1, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8, 11, 11

Clearly better records AS DEFENSEMEN ONLY than Clapper, as well.

____________________________

You pretty much have to put a lot of stock into Clapper's time at RW to rank him high this round.

Clapper at RW

Goals

1929-30 NHL 41 (2nd)

1930-31 NHL 22 (8th)

1934-35 NHL 22 (3rd)

1936-37 NHL 17 (10th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Assists

1929-30 NHL 20 (10th)

1931-32 NHL 22 (7th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Points

1929-30 NHL 61 (3rd)

1931-32 NHL 39 (8th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

My educated guess is that Clapper would have been 2nd Team RW in 1929-30 if there were voting.

No All-Star voting in 1929-30.

These are the top 5 scorers:

1.	Cooney Weiland* • BOS	73
2.	Frank Boucher* • NYR	62
3.	Dit Clapper* • BOS	61
4.	Bill Cook* • NYR	59
5.	Hec Kilrea • OTS	58

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

No other RW particularly close to Clapper and Cook. Based on this and Cook's reputation as a tough guy leader, I'd GUESS that Clapper finishes as the 2nd Team AS under Bill Cook. But it's just an educated guess - neither Clapper nor Cook finished with relevant Hart votes.

Clapper's Overall All-Star record:

As RW:
1929-30: 2nd (estimated based on performance)
1930-31: 2nd
1931-32: 4th
1934-35: 2nd
1935-36: 4th
1936-37: 4th

As D:
37-38: 12th
38-39: 2nd
39-40: 1st
40-41: 1st
41-42: 6th
42-43: 6th
43-44: 4th
44-45: 9th

__________________________________

Horton/Macinnis's Norris records compared to Clapper's FULL All-Star record:
Horton: 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 6, 6, 9, 9, 12
MacInnis: 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 6, 7, 8
Clapper: 1, 1, 2, 2#, 2#, 2#, 4#, 4#, 4#, 4*,6, 6', 9*, 12
*war year
'partial war year
#As RW

Conclusion: If you treat Clapper's placements as the 2nd or 4th best RW in the league as equivalent to being the 2nd or 4th best D, then his record looks very similar to Horton and MacInnis's.

Question: Should we treat Clapper's RW placements as equal in value to placing the same as a D?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How much of the rep can be explained by the Senators and Maroons folding? Just a general comment - players on teams that cease to exist have a huge uphill battle to get recognized.

That being said, Benedict is probably 3rd-4th most important player on that Sens dynasty, while Vezina didnt have nearly the supporting cast. Other than Lalonde, who was on those Montreal teams? Oh yeah and Cleghorn after 1921.

This is a good point. It's why I tried to focus on comments made before 1950 - theoretically, everyone commenting (if they were old enough and based in the east) would have had a chance to watch Benedict and Vezina play. Yeah... I realize that "in theory" doesn't mean "actually."

I do think that contemporary commentary while both men were still playing but near the end of their careers is more powerful though