Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 14

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Feb 11, 2019.

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  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Procedure
    • You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
    • The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
    • A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

    Eligible Voters
    • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
    • Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

    Guidelines
    • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
    • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
    • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
    • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

    House Rules
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

    The actual voting period will open up on Friday, February 15th at midnight and continue through Sunday, February 17th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, February 18th.


    Vote 14 Candidates
    • Al MacInnis
    • Bill Durnan
    • Clint Benedict
    • Cy Denneny
    • Dickie Moore
    • Dit Clapper
    • Frank Mahovlich
    • Georges Vezina
    • Joe Malone
    • Teemu Selanne
    • Tim Horton
     
  2. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    First(ov) :P
     
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  3. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Hart trophy voting results

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
    Bill Durnan1113
    Teemu Selanne123
    Dit Clapper112
    Frank Mahovlich112
    Clint Benedict11
    Al MacInnis11
    Dickie Moore0
    Cy Denneny0
    Georges Vezina0
    Joe Malone0
    Tim Horton0

    No Hart trophy winners in the group, and only two runner-ups (both of whom did so during the 1940s, perhaps the NHL's weakest decade - though neither did so during the talent vacuum of WWII).

    Dickie Moore won consecutive Art Ross trophies but finished 5th and 8th in Hart voting (both cases he earned insufficient votes to qualify for these rankings - so he's not listed above). It wasn't due to being one-dimensional - he was a solid defensive player. He was behind two teammates (Harvey and H. Richard) in 1958, then behind another (Beliveau) in 1959.

    Keep in mind that the Hart trophy wasn't awarded until the 1923-24 season. That was Joe Malone's last season (he only scored one point in ten games). Vezina played two seasons in the Hart era (plus a partial game in 1925-26). Two great Senators, Denneny and Benedict, played until 1928-29 and 1929-30 respectively - so it's probably fair to ask why they didn't get much more Hart consideration.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  4. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    VsX (1927 to 2018)

    Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 7YR 10YR
    Teemu Selanne 100.0 100.0 94.5 90.4 90.0 89.2 84.9 82.5 80.8 75.0 92.7 88.7
    Frank Mahovlich 93.3 90.1 89.4 88.1 87.9 84.5 81.4 81.1 72.9 71.8 87.8 84.1
    Dickie Moore 118.3 115.7 80.0 76.7 75.3 70.4 61.7 48.8 48.6 47.8 85.4 74.3
    Dit Clapper 98.4 78.7 78.0 69.8 65.1 63.6 62.5 59.1 59.1 55.6 73.7 69.0
    Al MacInnis 89.6 70.4 69.8 68.3 66.4 65.4 63.4 57.9 56.3 53.8 70.5 66.1
    Tim Horton 50.8 45.2 40.0 37.4 37.2 36.6 35.9 35.7 33.7 32.6 40.4 38.5

    VsX probably has limited usage for this round- three goalies, and two more forwards whose careers primarily or entirely dated the consolidation of North American hockey (I only keep track of this back to 1926-27).

    Mahovlich and Moore end up with pretty similar seven year scores, but their career arcs are completely different. Moore has by far the best two years between them, but Mahovlich has the next best eight.

    Denneny was runner-up in scoring five times, had one very narrow victory in the scoring race, and finished a close third another time. On paper, his VsX score should be almost exactly 100. But this was entirely before NHL consolidation - so his score needs to be discounted, but it's a question of how much.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  5. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Disappointing list of new candidates. Durnan and Benedict over Charlie Gardiner? I thought that was settled decisively in the goalies project? Durnan's career is no longer than Gardiner's, but it's tainted by the war years and a really weak playoff record.

    Denneny and Moore over Firsov? Wish I was surprised. Moore at least had the "if you don't care about longevity" angle.

    Can we just add Vezina, Horton and MacInnis and punt the rest? :D

    Maybe we can get an intetesting discussion on Malone at least.
     
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  6. Dr John Carlson Light is all over us

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    The first round where the new candidates significantly diverge from my original list. Not feeling inspired by most of this new group.

    I'd have Denneny as the 5th or 6th best member of those Ottawa teams after Nighbor, Benedict, Boucher, Gerard, and maybe Cleghorn although he didn't spend much time there. In his defense, it's no shame to be considered lesser than those players, but it feels like it'd be reaching too far down for him at this point.

    All project long I've been lower on players with short primes, so Moore and Durnan will take some convincing. Also, I remember reading a post somewhere on this board that showed Malone's ridiculous stats against Nighbor-less Ottawa in I think 1917-18. Anybody have that?
     
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  7. MXD Original #4

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    FFS. I can understand Benedict ahead of Gardiner. Durnan I just ... dont.
     
  8. Kyle McMahon Registered User

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    I'm usually on the opposite side of the fence when it comes to older eras/newer eras...but seeing Denneny and Malone and still no Brett Hull is a surprise to me.

    I like Durnan. I don't think there should really be a big gap between him and Frank Brimsek. I'm actually pretty high on all three of these goaltenders among this group.

    A bit surprised Horton didn't get in last round, he'll be a contender for the top of my ballot.

    Dickie Moore is a bit of an unusual case. Injuries definitely derailed things, but it's hard to overlook the lack of what we'd consider great seasons for players at this stage. Not a lot of meat on that bone outside of the two scoring title seasons.

    Clapper is almost the complete opposite. The NHL's first 20-year man. He seems to have been valued as highly as Schmidt and Cowley on those circa-1940 Bruins teams.

    I prefer Malone to Denneny right now between the two real old timers, but not sure if I'd have him over Benedict or Vezina. Malone won championships as the key player on his team, while in Denneny's case it seems that almost every piece of non-scoring stat evidence points to him being more of an elite support player than a driving force to his teams.
     
  9. Dennis Bonvie Registered User

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    I had Durnan ahead of both Benedict & Gardiner.

    Firsov is disappointing. Clearly some voters failed to recognize him at all.

    Glad to finally see Dit Clapper, the only all-star at forward & defense in NHL history.
     
  10. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    Ctrl+Z on this round...
     
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  11. Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Dickie Moore, two time Ross winner, assigned to check Gordie Howe and Andy Bathgate. Complete hockey player.
     
  12. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    From the Wingers Project:


    Teemu Selanne: Playoff Evaluation

    While we all recognize that he does not have that singular, dominant, Conn Smythe caliber run on his resume, a lot of what he has done gets lost in the shuffle when people look at his cumulative playoff totals.

    Consider this: we've been looking at seven-year VsX in the project so that we can better gauge the type of player these players were in their prime. Selanne happens to have exactly seven top-ten finishes in scoring. So what did Selanne's playoffs look like in those seven seasons?

    First, let's look at how his teams performed in the playoffs during Selanne's seven top-ten finishes.

    Team Playoff Record: 8-19, 68/90 GF/GA

    They were pretty bad, lasting only five series, winning just one series. The teams that eliminated Selanne's teams had between 93-101 points. Hebert and Shtalenkov in 1997 provided the only goaltending in these runs that even exceeded .900 - not surprisingly being the tandem that won the only series in Selanne's seven best years, but even they were ultimately and understandably bested by the 1997 Detroit Red Wings who were on their 14-2 steak to close out the playoffs.

    The teams Selanne played for in his seven best years did not put him in a situation conducive to a Conn Smythe-caliber run. People's instincts seem to be to put the blame on Selanne, the star player, but how did Selanne perform on an individual level in the playoffs following his seven top-ten seasons?

    27 GP, 19 G, 27 PTS, 3 GWGs (1 OT)

    He scored 28% of his teams' playoff goals, points on 40% of his teams' playoff goals, three of his teams' eight GWGs, and he was the team-leading goal scorer in every series. Those aren't exactly the ratios one would expect, given his reputation. If he had better support in his best years - whether it be defensively or offensively - he stood a very good chance of having a signature playoff run a la Pavel Bure in 1994 (who thankfully had Kirk McLean and Trevor Linden playing excellent hockey), but the individual runs were all too short. As a whole, however, despite playing for a team that only won 8 of 27 games, Teemu Selanne was an excellent playoff performer in his seven best seasons.


    Of course, the NHL playoffs aren't the only measure of how Selanne played during pressure games. He played a lot of international hockey in his career. Consider this: the NHL has sent players to the Olympics five times. Despite playing for a team that is never one of the top-three favorites, Selanne's teams have won four Olympic medals in those five tournaments. Individually, he was the tournament's leading scorer in 1998, the tournament's leading scorer in 2006, and the tournament's Most Valuable Player in 2014. That's three of the five tournaments where Selanne was a major star.

    People tend to brush off the 2014 selection as a parting-gift, but the circumstances weren't much different than how Joe Sakic won the MVP in 2002: like Sakic who was also not the leading scorer of the 2002 Olympics (trailing Sundin by 3 points), Selanne (trailing Kessel by 2 points) was the leading scorer of the playoff round (and in Selanne's case, he scored both of Finland's GWGs against Russia and the USA - goals that broke a tie in both games). And besides, if you're that against a player being named Most Valuable of a tournament that he wasn't the leading scorer of, remind yourself that Selanne already did that twice.

    If a player stuck behind the Iron Curtain was the leading scorer of two best-on-best tournaments and the Most Valuable Player of a third, how would you treat that? Performing that well in an Olympic tournament once is nice, but not necessarily reflective of anything. Three times out of five though? That's a pattern of elevated performance under pressure.

    He also scored 4-5-9 in the 10 World Cup games that were held while he was an NHL player, and in terms of non-best-on-best games, he was the leading goal scorer of the 1992 Olympics and the 1999 World Championship Most Valuable Player as well (that's the tournament a player goes to after their team posts an .874 series against Detroit...).


    So how did Selanne get the reputation? Everything after his best seasons - things that would be otherwise ignored had his teams gone deeper in the playoffs when he was a top-ten player - makes up a much bigger percentage of his playoff resume. Despite spending 37.2% of his regular season games as a top-ten scorer, Selanne played just 20.8% of his playoff games in those years. In addition to his seven top-ten finishes, Selanne had another four seasons above a point-per-game. He made the playoffs twice in those years: the 2006 and 2007 (Mighty) Ducks.

    Team Playoff Record: 25-12, 104/81 GF/GA

    And here are Selanne's playoff stats for what are the 8th and 9th best seasons of his career relative to his peers.

    37 GP, 11 G, 29 PTS, 4 GWGs (1 OT)

    He was no longer a point-per-game player in the playoffs in his 8th and 9th best seasons, and while it is clear that he did not meet his regular season expectations on the powerplay in these runs, he was just as good at even-strength as he was in the accompanying regular seasons. 10 of his 11 playoff goals came at even-strength (0.27 per-game, same as in the regular season) despite him scoring 49% of his goals on the powerplay in the accompanying regular season. It wasn't a matter of him wilting under pressure; teams game-planned around Selanne being the league's best power-play goal scorer.

    And these weren't exactly pushover defensive teams he was facing: of the seven playoff series in these two years, the (Mighty) Ducks faced both Jennings winners, two more top-five defensive teams, another top-ten defensive team, and Chris Pronger's Oilers. The closest thing they had to a break were the 2006 Avalanche, and not surprisingly, the Mighty Ducks swept them and Selanne was a point-per-game player.

    Selanne was the team's leading playoff scorer in 2006, and tied for 2nd in 2007 behind breakout star Ryan Getzlaf. Cumulatively, no Anaheim player posted even a .80 point-per-game figure over their two deep runs, with only two players having anything above 0.65, so it isn't as if Selanne was a passenger; he was still the best offensive player over the two years.

    1. Selanne, 11-18-29 (0.78)
    2. Getzlaf, 10-14-24 (0.65)
    3. McDonald, 12-11-23 (0.62)
    4. S. Niedermayer, 5-17-22 (0.59)
    5. Perry, 6-12-18 (0.56)
    6. Beauchemin, 7-10-17 (0.47)
    6. Penner, 6-11-17 (0.50)
    6. Pahlsson, 5-12-17 (0.46)
    9. Marchant, 3-13-16 (0.59)
    10. Pronger, 3-12-15 (0.79)

    I remind you, this is analysis of how Selanne played in the playoffs in the 8th and 9th best seasons of his career relative to his peers.

    During these two runs, he scored big goals in big games. In 2006, Selanne had a game-tying goal in Game 6 against favored Calgary waived off for interference that happened after the puck was in the net...

    ...so Selanne scored the game-tying goal again, and then scored the opening goal (and GWG) in Game 7.

    In 2007, the team faced adversity in only one series. Down 2-1 in the Conference Finals to Detroit, Selanne scored 6 points in the final 3 games to help take the series, including the last-minute game-tying assist in Game 5, and the OT GWG in the same game.

    He wasn't as good as Scott Niedermayer or Chris Pronger (who played for Anaheim in 2007 but not 2006), but he was the next best player on the team in his 8th and 9th best seasons. People sometimes point to rounds where Selanne did not score enough points, but if you look at that list of Anaheim players, every one of them was held to 2 points or less in a series at least three times except for Selanne (once in seven series) and Pronger (once in four series). It might not have been the offensive contribution of his peak years, but it was still the most consistent series-to-series offensive contribution of a team that went deep twice.


    The remaining portion of Selanne's career - the sub-point-per-game seasons caused by injury or age (all of them in his 30s or 40s) - contained the following anchor of a playoff record:

    66 GP, 14 G, 32 PTS

    Included in these are playoffs such as 2001, probably Selanne's best regular season of this sample.

    But just because these years make up the largest sample of Selanne's playoff career does not mean that they should be reflective of how he was as a pressure performer. At that point, you're double-counting injury and age against him. We know why he wasn't particularly good in these 66 playoff games: he wasn't a particularly good player when he appeared in them.


    Between how he performed in the playoffs when he was a top-ten player on a horrible team (19 goals in 27 games for 8-19 teams), how he performed in best-on-best tournaments (three exceptional Olympics), and how he was still the leading offensive contributor for the 2006 and 2007 (Mighty) Ducks (five points more than the 2nd place player), it's time to give some real consideration to Selanne.
     
  13. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    My top 3 remaining of Vezina, Horton and MacInnis will likely stay the same, however Selanne and Mahovlich no longer look out of place.
     
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  14. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    What are the post-season AS selections that we can use for Denneny and Malone to compare to the other scoring forwards in this round?
     
  15. seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    For anyone wondering, I have Joe Malone at 98 over 7 years, and 82 over 10 years. I have Denneny at 96 over 7 years, and 88 over 10 years. They both appear to be the premier offensive players of this round.
     
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  16. seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Durnan becomes the first player up for voting that was not in my top-100.
     
  17. BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    Clancy ahead of Cleghorn for sure!
     
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  18. BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    Joe Malone and Clint Benedict are interesting new candidates.Too bad Gardiner is not there to compare him to Vezina and Benedict.

    Durnan??!?!?

    Fine with Moore.He might be better than Geoffrion.

    No strong opinion on Clapper but it seems early.

    Malone > Denneny no doubt.Malone drove the play way more and had significantly more star power based on what I've read.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  19. BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    For Denneny and Benedict:

    My Ottawa Dynasty posts HERE.
     
  20. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Not sure why everyone is so low on Bill Durnan at this point of the project. A lot of 6x 1st Team All-Stars that we’re waiting on?

    We looked at quotes separating Vezina from the pack; anyone check Durnan’s reputation? Maybe the best received goaltender pre-Sawchuk who, yes, joined the depleted NHL during the war because he was in a position of leverage to get a better paycheck only to leave six Vezina Trophies later saying the money still wasn’t good enough.

    At the end of any given season when I was playing, I never seemed to have more than $2,000 in the bank, so I wasn't really getting anywhere that way. I wasn't educated and I had two girls to raise.”

    The weird structure to his career is a product of the era - not a mark against his ability.

    “When the Leafs found out about my injury they dropped me and I vowed that even when I got better never would I play pro hockey. I was disillusioned and figured if that was the kind of treatment I was to get, then hell, I didn't want any part of it. Besides, there wasn't much money involved; in those days they weren't paying anywhere near the money to be had today.”

    He wasn’t some unknown quantity between his injury in the early 1930s that led to the Maple Leafs releasing him and his eventually joining the NHL. Consider the Dick Irvin line about Durnan when he was holding down an accounting job: “It was obvious the amateur team had much better goaltending than the professional team that played in the same building.”

    Even just on the technical side of things, his lateral movement was fantastic and his ability to switch stick hands to the context of the opposition attack is more or less unreplicated.
     
  21. sr edler whom

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    Selänne this early when Bure probably won't even show up feels a bit weird, because everytime I saw them play against each other, well...

    Just goes to show what long careers means for broader perception.

    Also Denneny, I would have preferred someone from the Toronto/Seattle/Victoria combo-dynasty too, most preferably Walker or Cameron. Too many eyes on too many players from those Ottawa teams.
     
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  22. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    I think same for me...also doubles as the first guy not in my top 120 that made the list.

    Not taking questions at this time @qpq...


    (I will be, of course, open-minded to the notion that he belongs...somewhere on this list at all...but I'm going to need a lot, for his era and for the team he played on and how short his career is...in my estimation, he played in roughly one non-War-affected year at best...and his 2nd place team was promptly dispatched in 5 by a sub-.500 Rangers club led by Chuck Rayner and a bunch of meh...)
     
  23. MXD Original #4

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    I know Clapper wasn't in my Top-100 (nearly missed my Top-120 altogether); pretty sure Malone wasn't either.

    As for Durnan, it's not that I don't think he's a Top-100 player (I do) and it's not that he looks bad in this group (he doesn't that much, especially with the two aforementionned names). It's just that Gardiner is both easily comparable (there aren't many available goalies with such short careers) and, well, better.
     
  24. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    Yeah, Gardiner is my highest goalie remaining...but whatever, we can only play the hand we're dealt...

    Horton and Mahovlich should have already been in for my money...I have a lot of time for Dickie Moore this round certainly...he jumps off the page in game tape...
     
  25. MXD Original #4

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    Seriously, with the numbers posted by Hockey Outsider earlier, I highly question whether Mahovlich should even make it in the first place, despite looking great on tape.

    I mean, I get that he was somewhat stiffled offensively for most of his career, but if you're both stiffled and bleeding goals against, that's a serious issue.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
    Batis and TheDevilMadeMe like this.

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