Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 12

[Kyle McMahon]

Some commentary and with you/without you examples for Sprague Cleghorn:

Cleghorn spent several years with the Wanderers in the NHA. The Wanderers were no longer as strong personnel-wise as they had been in the years preceding the NHA, but still remained quite competitive. They tied Ottawa for 1st place in 1914-15, and weak goaltending (unknown Charlie McCarthy tending goal for Wanderers compared to Clint Benedict in Ottawa) was said to be the difference.

The next season is quite telling. The Wanderers started off hot, going 7-1. At that point Cleghorn was injured for the season and the team absolutely tanked, going 3-13 the rest of the way. Gordon Roberts and Harry Hyland both saw their scoring diminish considerably compared to the previous year.

Ottawa, great as they were, dropped from 19-5 in 1919-20 to 14-10 the next season after Cleghorn was released. Toronto picked him up for the second half of the season and went 10-4 with Cleghorn in tow after only being 5-5 in the first half. It's fair to note that Ottawa did win the first half of the season (guaranteeing a spot in the playoff) so they may have coasted somewhat in the second half with little at stake. They did easily defeat Toronto in the NHL Final.

Montreal, featuring Cleghorn, Morenz, and Joliat, won the Stanley Cup in 1924, and lost in the Final to Victoria in 1925. They were league leaders in both GF and GA that season. Cleghorn moved to the Bruins for 1925-26. Montreal's GA ballooned to almost the worst number in the league. Georges Vezina's loss certainly explains some of that, but the loss of Cleghorn was surely significant as well. Their offense also suffered a significant setback. Meanwhile, the Bruins suddenly went from a dreadful 6-24 expansion team to respectable 17-15-4, with the league's top offense. Cleghorn was the only notable addition to a team that featured few players of any historical repute.

Despite his long career, Cleghorn seldom found himself surrounded by great lineups. Two years with the Nighbor-era Senators and two with the Morenz-era Canadiens are really the only elite teams he got to play for. Two Stanley Cups (one with Ottawa, one with Canadiens) and a two losses in the Final (one with Canadiens, one with Bruins) is a pretty good track record in my estimation. The Wanderers just weren't that great during his prime-aged seasons, and there's at least some evidence that Cleghorn's presence is what kept them respectable. There is also reason to believe Cleghorn was a bigger driver of his teams' offense than I previously believed.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Some commentary and with you/without you examples for Sprague Cleghorn:

Cleghorn spent several years with the Wanderers in the NHA. The Wanderers were no longer as strong personnel-wise as they had been in the years preceding the NHA, but still remained quite competitive. They tied Ottawa for 1st place in 1914-15, and weak goaltending (unknown Charlie McCarthy tending goal for Wanderers compared to Clint Benedict in Ottawa) was said to be the difference.

The next season is quite telling. The Wanderers started off hot, going 7-1. At that point Cleghorn was injured for the season and the team absolutely tanked, going 3-13 the rest of the way. Gordon Roberts and Harry Hyland both saw their scoring diminish considerably compared to the previous year.

Ottawa, great as they were, dropped from 19-5 in 1919-20 to 14-10 the next season after Cleghorn was released. Toronto picked him up for the second half of the season and went 10-4 with Cleghorn in tow after only being 5-5 in the first half. It's fair to note that Ottawa did win the first half of the season (guaranteeing a spot in the playoff) so they may have coasted somewhat in the second half with little at stake. They did easily defeat Toronto in the NHL Final.

Montreal, featuring Cleghorn, Morenz, and Joliat, won the Stanley Cup in 1924, and lost in the Final to Victoria in 1925. They were league leaders in both GF and GA that season. Cleghorn moved to the Bruins for 1925-26. Montreal's GA ballooned to almost the worst number in the league. Georges Vezina's loss certainly explains some of that, but the loss of Cleghorn was surely significant as well. Their offense also suffered a significant setback. Meanwhile, the Bruins suddenly went from a dreadful 6-24 expansion team to respectable 17-15-4, with the league's top offense. Cleghorn was the only notable addition to a team that featured few players of any historical repute.

Despite his long career, Cleghorn seldom found himself surrounded by great lineups. Two years with the Nighbor-era Senators and two with the Morenz-era Canadiens are really the only elite teams he got to play for. Two Stanley Cups (one with Ottawa, one with Canadiens) and a two losses in the Final (one with Canadiens, one with Bruins) is a pretty good track record in my estimation. The Wanderers just weren't that great during his prime-aged seasons, and there's at least some evidence that Cleghorn's presence is what kept them respectable. There is also reason to believe Cleghorn was a bigger driver of his teams' offense than I previously believed.

Great post.

Just a minor correction, Cleghorn won two SCs with Ottawa (20 & 21).

I just voted.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Chris Pronger

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1995-96	13	1.00	1.33	-25%
1996-97	6	1.00	1.00	0%
1997-98	10	0.80	0.57	40%
1998-99	13	0.83	0.77	8%
1999-00	7	1.00	1.00	0%
2000-01	15	2.67	0.75	256%
2001-02	9	2.25	0.60	275%
2002-03	7	1.75	0.67	163%
2003-04	5	1.50	0.71	110%
2005-06	24	1.59	0.86	84%
2006-07	19	2.00	1.16	73%
2007-08	6	0.50	0.88	-43%
2008-09	13	1.50	0.77	95%
2009-10	23	1.23	1.04	18%
2010-11	3	-	0.85	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

By this metric, Pronger is one of the greatest playoff performers of all-time. His R-On is in the same range as Potvin, Lidstrom, Coffey and Chelios - but he achieved that playing on far weaker teams. There's no way to word this delicately, but the extent that Pronger helped his team at ES (that is, looking at the percentage difference between R-On and R-Off) is actually in the same range as Bobby Orr. Of course, nobody is suggesting that Pronger is as good as #4, but Pronger had an absolutely massive impact on his team's ES performance, which isn't necessarily obvious from his traditional stats. The only HOFer with a worse playoff R-Off was Mark Howe, who was just barely behind Pronger. We all knew how important Pronger was on his deep playoff runs in 2006 and 2007, but he was actually generally very good (though inconsistent) before the lockout as well.

Andy Bathgate

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1961-62	6	0.29	1.22	-77%
1963-64	14	0.67	1.77	-62%
1964-65	6	0.50	2.75	-82%
1965-66	12	2.00	1.13	78%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It's hard to read Bathgate's numbers. On the one hand, three of his four playoff runs have him put up awful results, both objectively and relative to his team. On the other hand, it's a small sample size (38 games), and only one of them was with the Rangers. We have no information about how Bathgate did during his peak in the 1950s. I'd probably call this one "incomplete" rather than "fail".

Bernie Geoffrion

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	8	10.00	1.78	463%
1960-61	4	999.99	0.82	122121%
1961-62	5	-	0.82	-100%
1962-63	5	0.33	0.22	50%
1963-64	7	0.33	1.57	-79%
1966-67	4	-	0.20	-100%
1967-68	1	1.00	0.67	50%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Boom Boom had great regular seasons in 1960 and 1961, and followed it up with excellent postseasons in both cases. After that, the results are bleak. Are we being unfair by mostly looking at numbers from past his prime? Or does this support the notion that if Geoffrion wasn't scoring, he wasn't bringing much value to the rink?

Frank Mahovlich

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	10	0.67	0.88	-24%
1960-61	5	0.25	0.44	-44%
1961-62	12	0.83	1.50	-44%
1962-63	9	1.33	2.88	-54%
1963-64	14	1.00	1.40	-29%
1964-65	6	1.25	3.50	-64%
1965-66	4	-	0.67	-100%
1966-67	12	0.50	1.20	-58%
1969-70	4	0.14	0.80	-82%
1970-71	20	1.11	1.41	-21%
1971-72	6	0.55	1.40	-61%
1972-73	17	1.00	1.95	-49%
1973-74	6	0.50	1.10	-55%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I was surprised by the uniformly negative results for the Big M. He has a very poor R-On ratio (among HOF forwards with 100+ playoff games, only Ciccarelli has a worse ratio, and he's not much behind Selanne and Thornton). He also played in one some of the strongest teams (again, amongst HOF forwards with 100+ playoff games, the only ones who had higher R-Off ratios were Anderson and Messier; Cournoyer and Esposito were close behind). The only forwards (again with 100+ games) with a worse career R-On to R-Off ratios were Troy Murray, Pat Verbeek, and Shawn Thornton. Even in 1971 (when Mahovlich led the postseason in goals and points), he had a bad ES ratio. Can anyone shed some light? Was he hugely reliant on the PP? Or awful defensively?

Marcel Dionne

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1975-76	9	1.00	0.64	57%
1976-77	9	0.69	0.82	-16%
1977-78	2	-	0.38	-100%
1978-79	2	-	-	#DIV/0!
1979-80	4	0.50	0.50	0%
1980-81	4	0.25	0.42	-40%
1981-82	10	1.33	0.69	93%
1984-85	3	0.67	0.50	33%
1986-87	6	-	0.60	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As expected, Dionne's results are pretty bad. Even when scoring around a point per game, his teams were badly outscored when he was on the ice. This is consistent with what overpass showed before. The good news (relatively speaking) is he didn't hurt his teams - they were basically just was bad when he was off the ice. But to emphasize how awful his R-On was - I previously said that Ciccarelli had the worst R-On of any HOF forward with 100+ playoff games. He was still almost 23% better than Dionne.

Tim Horton

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	10	0.64	1.00	-36%
1960-61	5	0.33	0.40	-17%
1961-62	12	0.82	1.46	-44%
1962-63	10	3.00	2.00	50%
1963-64	14	1.13	1.40	-19%
1964-65	6	1.50	3.00	-50%
1965-66	4	0.33	0.60	-44%
1966-67	12	0.75	1.43	-48%
1968-69	4	0.40	-	#DIV/0!
1969-70	6	0.63	0.36	72%
1970-71	13	1.11	0.79	41%
1971-72	4	1.20	0.11	980%
1972-73	6	0.60	0.86	-30%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

A mixed bag, but more disappointing than not. Horton's R-on during the Leafs dynasty was objectively quite strong, but the R-Off was even stronger. After, both numbers drop precipitously. Overall, Horton's R-Off is basically as bad as the metric for Bourque and Pronger, but his R-On is well behind theirs. Still, I don't think this is uncommon for primarily defensive defensemen (the results for Stevens and Langway look similar).

 

[BenchBrawl]

Chris Pronger

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1995-96	13	1.00	1.33	-25%
1996-97	6	1.00	1.00	0%
1997-98	10	0.80	0.57	40%
1998-99	13	0.83	0.77	8%
1999-00	7	1.00	1.00	0%
2000-01	15	2.67	0.75	256%
2001-02	9	2.25	0.60	275%
2002-03	7	1.75	0.67	163%
2003-04	5	1.50	0.71	110%
2005-06	24	1.59	0.86	84%
2006-07	19	2.00	1.16	73%
2007-08	6	0.50	0.88	-43%
2008-09	13	1.50	0.77	95%
2009-10	23	1.23	1.04	18%
2010-11	3	-	0.85	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

By this metric, Pronger is one of the greatest playoff performers of all-time. His R-On is in the same range as Potvin, Lidstrom, Coffey and Chelios - but he achieved that playing on far weaker teams. There's no way to word this delicately, but the extent that Pronger helped his team at ES (that is, looking at the percentage difference between R-On and R-Off) is actually in the same range as Bobby Orr. Of course, nobody is suggesting that Pronger is as good as #4, but Pronger had an absolutely massive impact on his team's ES performance, which isn't necessarily obvious from his traditional stats. The only HOFer with a worse playoff R-Off was Mark Howe, who was just barely behind Pronger. We all knew how important Pronger was on his deep playoff runs in 2006 and 2007, but he was actually generally very good (though inconsistent) before the lockout as well.

Andy Bathgate

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1961-62	6	0.29	1.22	-77%
1963-64	14	0.67	1.77	-62%
1964-65	6	0.50	2.75	-82%
1965-66	12	2.00	1.13	78%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It's hard to read Bathgate's numbers. On the one hand, three of his four playoff runs have him put up awful results, both objectively and relative to his team. On the other hand, it's a small sample size (38 games), and only one of them was with the Rangers. We have no information about how Bathgate did during his peak in the 1950s. I'd probably call this one "incomplete" rather than "fail".

Bernie Geoffrion

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	8	10.00	1.78	463%
1960-61	4	999.99	0.82	122121%
1961-62	5	-	0.82	-100%
1962-63	5	0.33	0.22	50%
1963-64	7	0.33	1.57	-79%
1966-67	4	-	0.20	-100%
1967-68	1	1.00	0.67	50%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Boom Boom had great regular seasons in 1960 and 1961, and followed it up with excellent postseasons in both cases. After that, the results are bleak. Are we being unfair by mostly looking at numbers from past his prime? Or does this support the notion that if Geoffrion wasn't scoring, he wasn't bringing much value to the rink?

Frank Mahovlich

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	10	0.67	0.88	-24%
1960-61	5	0.25	0.44	-44%
1961-62	12	0.83	1.50	-44%
1962-63	9	1.33	2.88	-54%
1963-64	14	1.00	1.40	-29%
1964-65	6	1.25	3.50	-64%
1965-66	4	-	0.67	-100%
1966-67	12	0.50	1.20	-58%
1969-70	4	0.14	0.80	-82%
1970-71	20	1.11	1.41	-21%
1971-72	6	0.55	1.40	-61%
1972-73	17	1.00	1.95	-49%
1973-74	6	0.50	1.10	-55%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I was surprised by the uniformly negative results for the Big M. He has a very poor R-On ratio (among HOF forwards with 100+ playoff games, only Ciccarelli has a worse ratio, and he's not much behind Selanne and Thornton). He also played in one some of the strongest teams (again, amongst HOF forwards with 100+ playoff games, the only ones who had higher R-Off ratios were Anderson and Messier; Cournoyer and Esposito were close behind). The only forwards (again with 100+ games) with a worse career R-On to R-Off ratios were Troy Murray, Pat Verbeek, and Shawn Thornton. Even in 1971 (when Mahovlich led the postseason in goals and points), he had a bad ES ratio. Can anyone shed some light? Was he hugely reliant on the PP? Or awful defensively?

Marcel Dionne

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1975-76	9	1.00	0.64	57%
1976-77	9	0.69	0.82	-16%
1977-78	2	-	0.38	-100%
1978-79	2	-	-	#DIV/0!
1979-80	4	0.50	0.50	0%
1980-81	4	0.25	0.42	-40%
1981-82	10	1.33	0.69	93%
1984-85	3	0.67	0.50	33%
1986-87	6	-	0.60	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As expected, Dionne's results are pretty bad. Even when scoring around a point per game, his teams were badly outscored when he was on the ice. This is consistent with what overpass showed before. The good news (relatively speaking) is he didn't hurt his teams - they were basically just was bad when he was off the ice. But to emphasize how awful his R-On was - I previously said that Ciccarelli had the worst R-On of any HOF forward with 100+ playoff games. He was still almost 23% better than Dionne.

Tim Horton

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	10	0.64	1.00	-36%
1960-61	5	0.33	0.40	-17%
1961-62	12	0.82	1.46	-44%
1962-63	10	3.00	2.00	50%
1963-64	14	1.13	1.40	-19%
1964-65	6	1.50	3.00	-50%
1965-66	4	0.33	0.60	-44%
1966-67	12	0.75	1.43	-48%
1968-69	4	0.40	-	#DIV/0!
1969-70	6	0.63	0.36	72%
1970-71	13	1.11	0.79	41%
1971-72	4	1.20	0.11	980%
1972-73	6	0.60	0.86	-30%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

A mixed bag, but more disappointing than not. Horton's R-on during the Leafs dynasty was objectively quite strong, but the R-Off was even stronger. After, both numbers drop precipitously. Overall, Horton's R-Off is basically as bad as the metric for Bourque and Pronger, but his R-On is well behind theirs. Still, I don't think this is uncommon for primarily defensive defensemen (the results for Stevens and Langway look similar).

Thank you for this.

Makes me feel good that I ranked Pronger at 3rd.Could have gone higher.

Those Pronger numbers are backing my intuition about him.

 

[ted2019]

So Stevens should be voted in already and Brodeur should be coming-up soon?

Or is it the other way around?

I think Stevens should already be up for vote.

 

[ted2019]

Thank you for this.

Makes me feel good that I ranked Pronger at 3rd.Could have gone higher.

Those Pronger numbers are backing my intuition about him.

Pronger is my top spot for sure.

 

[ted2019]

voted

 

[ted2019]

Mahovlich is not my NR. Pronger is.

Why/how is Pronger NR for you? He's a top 3 candidate this round.

 

[seventieslord]

Why/how is Pronger NR for you? He's a top 3 candidate this round.

I don't know about top-3, but he should be given strong consideration by all. Mahovlich looks like an easy NR after those numbers from Hockey Outsider. Like seriously, how does that happen?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Pronger was basically the last great vilain in the NHL.

WWF style.

 

[The Macho King]

Pronger was basically the last great vilain in the NHL.

WWF style.

Eh - he got his tires pumped so much the last few seasons of his career that it kind of took the edge off of his villainy.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Is Kennedy significantly better than guys like Fedorov, Gilmour and Keon?

NoYesYes

It sure looks like Seibert's all-star record is the best among those three, fairly easily, and even if you completely remove the war years and partial war year.

Someone convince me Horton and Pronger should be ahead - with something other than "they played more recently", please.

Can't do it, because they shouldn't.

Despite his long career, Cleghorn seldom found himself surrounded by great lineups.

This Round has Dionne, Bathgate, and Seibert up for discussion- so the "Cleghorn seldom had great lineups" note is like an un-rosined bow right across the strings. And- as long as I've brought up Bathgate's name, I'd like to talk about him as a serious candidate this Round. [Probably in vain... but I'll give it a little bit of a go.] Almost alone among Wingers that we've discussed to this point, he's never led the league in goals. [His near-misses weren't as close as Jágr's. Still, he led in even-strength goals once- c.f.: Jágr 3x] However, he led the league in Assists twice. So- who was finishing off those chances Bathgate was creating? Let's look.

Oh, dear.

What he could have accomplished with above-average teammates is almost beyond conjecture. It even makes Dionne's support look fine by comparison.

I feel like [the Defensemen comparison] really favours Cleghorn. He was definitely the best of his era, while these other guys were definitely not. Do we downplay his era so much that they should rank ahead of him? At first glance, I see no reason to.

Yeah- this was my longest 'think' of the Round-- and upon reflection, ChiTownPhilly Airways has decided to assess Cleghorn the excess-baggage fee. I dinged Shore for Filthy-Factor, I dinged Clarke for Filthy-Factor, I dinged Lindsay for Filthy-Factor... and Cleghorn's filthier than any of 'em. I have enough shower-gel to wash myself off if voting for him next Round, but not this one.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Chris Pronger

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1995-96	13	1.00	1.33	-25%
1996-97	6	1.00	1.00	0%
1997-98	10	0.80	0.57	40%
1998-99	13	0.83	0.77	8%
1999-00	7	1.00	1.00	0%
2000-01	15	2.67	0.75	256%
2001-02	9	2.25	0.60	275%
2002-03	7	1.75	0.67	163%
2003-04	5	1.50	0.71	110%
2005-06	24	1.59	0.86	84%
2006-07	19	2.00	1.16	73%
2007-08	6	0.50	0.88	-43%
2008-09	13	1.50	0.77	95%
2009-10	23	1.23	1.04	18%
2010-11	3	-	0.85	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

By this metric, Pronger is one of the greatest playoff performers of all-time. His R-On is in the same range as Potvin, Lidstrom, Coffey and Chelios - but he achieved that playing on far weaker teams. There's no way to word this delicately, but the extent that Pronger helped his team at ES (that is, looking at the percentage difference between R-On and R-Off) is actually in the same range as Bobby Orr. Of course, nobody is suggesting that Pronger is as good as #4, but Pronger had an absolutely massive impact on his team's ES performance, which isn't necessarily obvious from his traditional stats. The only HOFer with a worse playoff R-Off was Mark Howe, who was just barely behind Pronger. We all knew how important Pronger was on his deep playoff runs in 2006 and 2007, but he was actually generally very good (though inconsistent) before the lockout as well.

Andy Bathgate

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1961-62	6	0.29	1.22	-77%
1963-64	14	0.67	1.77	-62%
1964-65	6	0.50	2.75	-82%
1965-66	12	2.00	1.13	78%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It's hard to read Bathgate's numbers. On the one hand, three of his four playoff runs have him put up awful results, both objectively and relative to his team. On the other hand, it's a small sample size (38 games), and only one of them was with the Rangers. We have no information about how Bathgate did during his peak in the 1950s. I'd probably call this one "incomplete" rather than "fail".

Bernie Geoffrion

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	8	10.00	1.78	463%
1960-61	4	999.99	0.82	122121%
1961-62	5	-	0.82	-100%
1962-63	5	0.33	0.22	50%
1963-64	7	0.33	1.57	-79%
1966-67	4	-	0.20	-100%
1967-68	1	1.00	0.67	50%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Boom Boom had great regular seasons in 1960 and 1961, and followed it up with excellent postseasons in both cases. After that, the results are bleak. Are we being unfair by mostly looking at numbers from past his prime? Or does this support the notion that if Geoffrion wasn't scoring, he wasn't bringing much value to the rink?

Frank Mahovlich

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	10	0.67	0.88	-24%
1960-61	5	0.25	0.44	-44%
1961-62	12	0.83	1.50	-44%
1962-63	9	1.33	2.88	-54%
1963-64	14	1.00	1.40	-29%
1964-65	6	1.25	3.50	-64%
1965-66	4	-	0.67	-100%
1966-67	12	0.50	1.20	-58%
1969-70	4	0.14	0.80	-82%
1970-71	20	1.11	1.41	-21%
1971-72	6	0.55	1.40	-61%
1972-73	17	1.00	1.95	-49%
1973-74	6	0.50	1.10	-55%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I was surprised by the uniformly negative results for the Big M. He has a very poor R-On ratio (among HOF forwards with 100+ playoff games, only Ciccarelli has a worse ratio, and he's not much behind Selanne and Thornton). He also played in one some of the strongest teams (again, amongst HOF forwards with 100+ playoff games, the only ones who had higher R-Off ratios were Anderson and Messier; Cournoyer and Esposito were close behind). The only forwards (again with 100+ games) with a worse career R-On to R-Off ratios were Troy Murray, Pat Verbeek, and Shawn Thornton. Even in 1971 (when Mahovlich led the postseason in goals and points), he had a bad ES ratio. Can anyone shed some light? Was he hugely reliant on the PP? Or awful defensively?

Marcel Dionne

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1975-76	9	1.00	0.64	57%
1976-77	9	0.69	0.82	-16%
1977-78	2	-	0.38	-100%
1978-79	2	-	-	#DIV/0!
1979-80	4	0.50	0.50	0%
1980-81	4	0.25	0.42	-40%
1981-82	10	1.33	0.69	93%
1984-85	3	0.67	0.50	33%
1986-87	6	-	0.60	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As expected, Dionne's results are pretty bad. Even when scoring around a point per game, his teams were badly outscored when he was on the ice. This is consistent with what overpass showed before. The good news (relatively speaking) is he didn't hurt his teams - they were basically just was bad when he was off the ice. But to emphasize how awful his R-On was - I previously said that Ciccarelli had the worst R-On of any HOF forward with 100+ playoff games. He was still almost 23% better than Dionne.

Tim Horton

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	10	0.64	1.00	-36%
1960-61	5	0.33	0.40	-17%
1961-62	12	0.82	1.46	-44%
1962-63	10	3.00	2.00	50%
1963-64	14	1.13	1.40	-19%
1964-65	6	1.50	3.00	-50%
1965-66	4	0.33	0.60	-44%
1966-67	12	0.75	1.43	-48%
1968-69	4	0.40	-	#DIV/0!
1969-70	6	0.63	0.36	72%
1970-71	13	1.11	0.79	41%
1971-72	4	1.20	0.11	980%
1972-73	6	0.60	0.86	-30%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

A mixed bag, but more disappointing than not. Horton's R-on during the Leafs dynasty was objectively quite strong, but the R-Off was even stronger. After, both numbers drop precipitously. Overall, Horton's R-Off is basically as bad as the metric for Bourque and Pronger, but his R-On is well behind theirs. Still, I don't think this is uncommon for primarily defensive defensemen (the results for Stevens and Langway look similar).

Frank Mahovlich, defensively tended to get by on talent as opposed to commitment to a system. Results point this out.

Geoffrion. Correct.

Bathgate. 1950's would be worse. Canadiens and Boston lit him up. See Fleming Mackell and Dickie Moore.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't know about top-3, but he should be given strong consideration by all. Mahovlich looks like an easy NR after those numbers from Hockey Outsider. Like seriously, how does that happen?

Why does this one metric make Mahovlich an "easy NR"?

No one in this group was on more Cup winners. Its not like his coaches benched him because he was hurting his teams. Seems he still filled a role, that being point production. He led the Canadiens in scoring once and was 2nd the other time they won Cups together. Led the Leafs in playoff scoring in 1964, surprisingly leading the playoffs in assists.

Not saying the metric isn't a factor. But to say Mahovlich should be behind all others here because of it seems illogical.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Why does this one metric make Mahovlich an "easy NR"?

No one in this group was on more Cup winners. Its not like his coaches benched him because he was hurting his teams. Seems he still filled a role, that being point production. He led the Canadiens in scoring once and was 2nd the other time they won Cups together. Led the Leafs in playoff scoring in 1964, surprisingly leading the playoffs in assists.

Not saying the metric isn't a factor. But to say Mahovlich should be behind all others here because of it seems illogical.

Underlining the project's paradoxical relationship with scoring. Gretzky, Lemieux, a few others get a pass, others do not.

 

[kruezer]

Voted!

My next five to add from my original list are Firsov, Bowie, Vezina, Stuart, Selanne. I’d add in Joe Malone as a guy I underrated in R1 I’d be happy to see show up.

 

[MXD]

First of all, thanks for the very informative posts.

I knew right from the start that I had underrated Pronger in R1 and this thread explains very well why Pronger belongs with this group of D-Men as opposed to the group below (I had ranked Pronger right below Borje Salming in R1 -- and Salming clearly belongs to that group below).

Don't get me wrong : there are many things to dislike about Pronger (penalties, inconsistencies, longevity -- in this group of D's at least), but I feel pretty safe calling Chris Pronger the best ES player available this round (considering only post-WWII, and excluding Brimsek because it makes no sense to bring him in this discussion). That's clearly not enough to unseat the two players I consider the best in this group (Conacher and Brimsek), but that also means I'm not considering him along Dionne and Mahovlich for the last places.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Voted.

Tim Horton received votes for the Hart trophy in three different seasons (1962, 1969, and 1973), but he never broke the 5% threshold, so his score is zero in the table.

I'm still left wondering if [Cleghorn] could have remained in any league that gave two turds about player-safety.

Mahovlich is an easy NR.

Mahovlich is not my NR. Pronger is.

"I only regret that I have but one 'NR' to give for my ballot..."

 

[seventieslord]

Chris Pronger

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1995-96	13	1.00	1.33	-25%
1996-97	6	1.00	1.00	0%
1997-98	10	0.80	0.57	40%
1998-99	13	0.83	0.77	8%
1999-00	7	1.00	1.00	0%
2000-01	15	2.67	0.75	256%
2001-02	9	2.25	0.60	275%
2002-03	7	1.75	0.67	163%
2003-04	5	1.50	0.71	110%
2005-06	24	1.59	0.86	84%
2006-07	19	2.00	1.16	73%
2007-08	6	0.50	0.88	-43%
2008-09	13	1.50	0.77	95%
2009-10	23	1.23	1.04	18%
2010-11	3	-	0.85	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

By this metric, Pronger is one of the greatest playoff performers of all-time. His R-On is in the same range as Potvin, Lidstrom, Coffey and Chelios - but he achieved that playing on far weaker teams. There's no way to word this delicately, but the extent that Pronger helped his team at ES (that is, looking at the percentage difference between R-On and R-Off) is actually in the same range as Bobby Orr. Of course, nobody is suggesting that Pronger is as good as #4, but Pronger had an absolutely massive impact on his team's ES performance, which isn't necessarily obvious from his traditional stats. The only HOFer with a worse playoff R-Off was Mark Howe, who was just barely behind Pronger. We all knew how important Pronger was on his deep playoff runs in 2006 and 2007, but he was actually generally very good (though inconsistent) before the lockout as well.

Andy Bathgate

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1961-62	6	0.29	1.22	-77%
1963-64	14	0.67	1.77	-62%
1964-65	6	0.50	2.75	-82%
1965-66	12	2.00	1.13	78%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It's hard to read Bathgate's numbers. On the one hand, three of his four playoff runs have him put up awful results, both objectively and relative to his team. On the other hand, it's a small sample size (38 games), and only one of them was with the Rangers. We have no information about how Bathgate did during his peak in the 1950s. I'd probably call this one "incomplete" rather than "fail".

Bernie Geoffrion

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	8	10.00	1.78	463%
1960-61	4	999.99	0.82	122121%
1961-62	5	-	0.82	-100%
1962-63	5	0.33	0.22	50%
1963-64	7	0.33	1.57	-79%
1966-67	4	-	0.20	-100%
1967-68	1	1.00	0.67	50%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Boom Boom had great regular seasons in 1960 and 1961, and followed it up with excellent postseasons in both cases. After that, the results are bleak. Are we being unfair by mostly looking at numbers from past his prime? Or does this support the notion that if Geoffrion wasn't scoring, he wasn't bringing much value to the rink?

Frank Mahovlich

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	10	0.67	0.88	-24%
1960-61	5	0.25	0.44	-44%
1961-62	12	0.83	1.50	-44%
1962-63	9	1.33	2.88	-54%
1963-64	14	1.00	1.40	-29%
1964-65	6	1.25	3.50	-64%
1965-66	4	-	0.67	-100%
1966-67	12	0.50	1.20	-58%
1969-70	4	0.14	0.80	-82%
1970-71	20	1.11	1.41	-21%
1971-72	6	0.55	1.40	-61%
1972-73	17	1.00	1.95	-49%
1973-74	6	0.50	1.10	-55%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I was surprised by the uniformly negative results for the Big M. He has a very poor R-On ratio (among HOF forwards with 100+ playoff games, only Ciccarelli has a worse ratio, and he's not much behind Selanne and Thornton). He also played in one some of the strongest teams (again, amongst HOF forwards with 100+ playoff games, the only ones who had higher R-Off ratios were Anderson and Messier; Cournoyer and Esposito were close behind). The only forwards (again with 100+ games) with a worse career R-On to R-Off ratios were Troy Murray, Pat Verbeek, and Shawn Thornton. Even in 1971 (when Mahovlich led the postseason in goals and points), he had a bad ES ratio. Can anyone shed some light? Was he hugely reliant on the PP? Or awful defensively?

Marcel Dionne

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1975-76	9	1.00	0.64	57%
1976-77	9	0.69	0.82	-16%
1977-78	2	-	0.38	-100%
1978-79	2	-	-	#DIV/0!
1979-80	4	0.50	0.50	0%
1980-81	4	0.25	0.42	-40%
1981-82	10	1.33	0.69	93%
1984-85	3	0.67	0.50	33%
1986-87	6	-	0.60	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As expected, Dionne's results are pretty bad. Even when scoring around a point per game, his teams were badly outscored when he was on the ice. This is consistent with what overpass showed before. The good news (relatively speaking) is he didn't hurt his teams - they were basically just was bad when he was off the ice. But to emphasize how awful his R-On was - I previously said that Ciccarelli had the worst R-On of any HOF forward with 100+ playoff games. He was still almost 23% better than Dionne.

Tim Horton

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	10	0.64	1.00	-36%
1960-61	5	0.33	0.40	-17%
1961-62	12	0.82	1.46	-44%
1962-63	10	3.00	2.00	50%
1963-64	14	1.13	1.40	-19%
1964-65	6	1.50	3.00	-50%
1965-66	4	0.33	0.60	-44%
1966-67	12	0.75	1.43	-48%
1968-69	4	0.40	-	#DIV/0!
1969-70	6	0.63	0.36	72%
1970-71	13	1.11	0.79	41%
1971-72	4	1.20	0.11	980%
1972-73	6	0.60	0.86	-30%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

A mixed bag, but more disappointing than not. Horton's R-on during the Leafs dynasty was objectively quite strong, but the R-Off was even stronger. After, both numbers drop precipitously. Overall, Horton's R-Off is basically as bad as the metric for Bourque and Pronger, but his R-On is well behind theirs. Still, I don't think this is uncommon for primarily defensive defensemen (the results for Stevens and Langway look similar).

I'd like to put together some career numbers for these players so it's easier to digest, and easier to summarize players such as Horton, who were up and down in these numbers. Without the source data, I could have done it simply by weighing each season's individual Rn and Rff But with the occasional season having an incalculable result (thanks to a player not registering an ESGF or ESGA in a 4-5-6 game sample (not an insignificant amount of time), it makes it impossible. With all the source data I'd be able to quickly compile career numbers. Can you help?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I'd like to put together some career numbers for these players so it's easier to digest, and easier to summarize players such as Horton, who were up and down in these numbers. Without the source data, I could have done it simply by weighing each season's individual Rn and Rff But with the occasional season having an incalculable result (thanks to a player not registering an ESGF or ESGA in a 4-5-6 game sample (not an insignificant amount of time), it makes it impossible. With all the source data I'd be able to quickly compile career numbers. Can you help?

Yes, easily. Here are the career numbers:

Player	GP	R-On	R-Off	Change
Chris Pronger	173	1.33	0.88	51.7%
Bernie Geoffrion	34	1.23	0.82	50.2%
Tim Horton	106	0.89	0.91	-1.3%
Marcel Dionne	49	0.57	0.60	-6.2%
Frank Mahovlich	125	0.79	1.38	-42.9%
Andy Bathgate	38	0.71	1.50	-52.8%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

(Edit - this time with Geoffrion)

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Chris Pronger

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1995-96	13	1.00	1.33	-25%
1996-97	6	1.00	1.00	0%
1997-98	10	0.80	0.57	40%
1998-99	13	0.83	0.77	8%
1999-00	7	1.00	1.00	0%
2000-01	15	2.67	0.75	256%
2001-02	9	2.25	0.60	275%
2002-03	7	1.75	0.67	163%
2003-04	5	1.50	0.71	110%
2005-06	24	1.59	0.86	84%
2006-07	19	2.00	1.16	73%
2007-08	6	0.50	0.88	-43%
2008-09	13	1.50	0.77	95%
2009-10	23	1.23	1.04	18%
2010-11	3	-	0.85	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

By this metric, Pronger is one of the greatest playoff performers of all-time. His R-On is in the same range as Potvin, Lidstrom, Coffey and Chelios - but he achieved that playing on far weaker teams. There's no way to word this delicately, but the extent that Pronger helped his team at ES (that is, looking at the percentage difference between R-On and R-Off) is actually in the same range as Bobby Orr. Of course, nobody is suggesting that Pronger is as good as #4, but Pronger had an absolutely massive impact on his team's ES performance, which isn't necessarily obvious from his traditional stats. The only HOFer with a worse playoff R-Off was Mark Howe, who was just barely behind Pronger. We all knew how important Pronger was on his deep playoff runs in 2006 and 2007, but he was actually generally very good (though inconsistent) before the lockout as well.

Andy Bathgate

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1961-62	6	0.29	1.22	-77%
1963-64	14	0.67	1.77	-62%
1964-65	6	0.50	2.75	-82%
1965-66	12	2.00	1.13	78%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It's hard to read Bathgate's numbers. On the one hand, three of his four playoff runs have him put up awful results, both objectively and relative to his team. On the other hand, it's a small sample size (38 games), and only one of them was with the Rangers. We have no information about how Bathgate did during his peak in the 1950s. I'd probably call this one "incomplete" rather than "fail".

Bernie Geoffrion

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	8	10.00	1.78	463%
1960-61	4	999.99	0.82	122121%
1961-62	5	-	0.82	-100%
1962-63	5	0.33	0.22	50%
1963-64	7	0.33	1.57	-79%
1966-67	4	-	0.20	-100%
1967-68	1	1.00	0.67	50%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Boom Boom had great regular seasons in 1960 and 1961, and followed it up with excellent postseasons in both cases. After that, the results are bleak. Are we being unfair by mostly looking at numbers from past his prime? Or does this support the notion that if Geoffrion wasn't scoring, he wasn't bringing much value to the rink?

Frank Mahovlich

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	10	0.67	0.88	-24%
1960-61	5	0.25	0.44	-44%
1961-62	12	0.83	1.50	-44%
1962-63	9	1.33	2.88	-54%
1963-64	14	1.00	1.40	-29%
1964-65	6	1.25	3.50	-64%
1965-66	4	-	0.67	-100%
1966-67	12	0.50	1.20	-58%
1969-70	4	0.14	0.80	-82%
1970-71	20	1.11	1.41	-21%
1971-72	6	0.55	1.40	-61%
1972-73	17	1.00	1.95	-49%
1973-74	6	0.50	1.10	-55%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I was surprised by the uniformly negative results for the Big M. He has a very poor R-On ratio (among HOF forwards with 100+ playoff games, only Ciccarelli has a worse ratio, and he's not much behind Selanne and Thornton). He also played in one some of the strongest teams (again, amongst HOF forwards with 100+ playoff games, the only ones who had higher R-Off ratios were Anderson and Messier; Cournoyer and Esposito were close behind). The only forwards (again with 100+ games) with a worse career R-On to R-Off ratios were Troy Murray, Pat Verbeek, and Shawn Thornton. Even in 1971 (when Mahovlich led the postseason in goals and points), he had a bad ES ratio. Can anyone shed some light? Was he hugely reliant on the PP? Or awful defensively?

Marcel Dionne

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1975-76	9	1.00	0.64	57%
1976-77	9	0.69	0.82	-16%
1977-78	2	-	0.38	-100%
1978-79	2	-	-	#DIV/0!
1979-80	4	0.50	0.50	0%
1980-81	4	0.25	0.42	-40%
1981-82	10	1.33	0.69	93%
1984-85	3	0.67	0.50	33%
1986-87	6	-	0.60	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As expected, Dionne's results are pretty bad. Even when scoring around a point per game, his teams were badly outscored when he was on the ice. This is consistent with what overpass showed before. The good news (relatively speaking) is he didn't hurt his teams - they were basically just was bad when he was off the ice. But to emphasize how awful his R-On was - I previously said that Ciccarelli had the worst R-On of any HOF forward with 100+ playoff games. He was still almost 23% better than Dionne.

Tim Horton

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	10	0.64	1.00	-36%
1960-61	5	0.33	0.40	-17%
1961-62	12	0.82	1.46	-44%
1962-63	10	3.00	2.00	50%
1963-64	14	1.13	1.40	-19%
1964-65	6	1.50	3.00	-50%
1965-66	4	0.33	0.60	-44%
1966-67	12	0.75	1.43	-48%
1968-69	4	0.40	-	#DIV/0!
1969-70	6	0.63	0.36	72%
1970-71	13	1.11	0.79	41%
1971-72	4	1.20	0.11	980%
1972-73	6	0.60	0.86	-30%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

A mixed bag, but more disappointing than not. Horton's R-on during the Leafs dynasty was objectively quite strong, but the R-Off was even stronger. After, both numbers drop precipitously. Overall, Horton's R-Off is basically as bad as the metric for Bourque and Pronger, but his R-On is well behind theirs. Still, I don't think this is uncommon for primarily defensive defensemen (the results for Stevens and Langway look similar).

Interesting numbers for the 60's Leafs. The 1965 team must have been absolutely murdered on the penalty kill to lose 4 out of 6 with those metrics. Keon's numbers will be interesting when he is available. Somebody was driving those huge R-Off numbers.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Interesting numbers for the 60's Leafs. The 1965 team must have been absolutely murdered on the penalty kill to lose 4 out of 6 with those metrics. Keon's numbers will be interesting when he is available. Somebody was driving those huge R-Off numbers.

We'll see if Keon ever comes up for voting (maybe the last round?) But yes, his results are outstanding. Same with George Armstrong. Dick Duff (HOH's punching bag as worst HOF selection of the past forty years) looks great as well. Carl Brewer stands out among the blueliners.

And yes, the 1965 Leafs were awful on the PK. Of the 17 goals that they allowed that series, 11 were on the PK (which isn't reflected in the ES numbers above).

 

[seventieslord]

Why does this one metric make Mahovlich an "easy NR"?

No one in this group was on more Cup winners. Its not like his coaches benched him because he was hurting his teams. Seems he still filled a role, that being point production. He led the Canadiens in scoring once and was 2nd the other time they won Cups together. Led the Leafs in playoff scoring in 1964, surprisingly leading the playoffs in assists.

Not saying the metric isn't a factor. But to say Mahovlich should be behind all others here because of it seems illogical.

Every single season he was in the playoffs, his teams were better with him on the bench than on the ice. Every single one.

 

[seventieslord]

Yes, easily. Here are the career numbers:

Player	GP	R-On	R-Off	Change
Chris Pronger	173	1.33	0.88	51.7%
Bernie Geoffrion	34	1.23	0.82	50.2%
Tim Horton	106	0.89	0.91	-1.3%
Marcel Dionne	49	0.57	0.60	-6.2%
Frank Mahovlich	125	0.79	1.38	-42.9%
Andy Bathgate	38	0.71	1.50	-52.8%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

(Edit - this time with Geoffrion)

Thanks.

So if I understand this correctly, the Leafs' playoff ES GF:GA ratio from 1960-1970 was approximately..... 0.90? that's odd, they were 39-38 in that time. Not impossible, but.... odd.

Wow.... Mahovlich's teams were 67-59 in his playoff career (1959 excluded), and he was a career -25 in the playoffs.

A couple guys suffer from poor team situations and small samples, but we can definitely conclude Pronger was a beast in the playoffs and Mahovlich was a dud. Horton is a tough one to figure out from this.

 

[MXD]

According to HR, Mahovlich led the 1970-71 playoffs in ES goalscoring (11 goals).
To be honest, I'm not quite sure who Mahovlich ended up being +2. He might have played a bit with his brother Pete (the lone non spare part forward with a minus rating)... and Pete was also scoring quite a bit at ES during these playoffs (8 goals, second best on the Habs).