Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 12

[Canadiens1958]

I'm disappointed to see this actually. Mahovlich jumps off the page when you watch the games. He's the most technically skilled player on the board for us, and if it wasn't for Dionne, I'd say it's not particularly close either. He was that power forward style of player, that big guy, that can skate really well, protect, pass, shoot, he was a multi-line puck carrier, hands for days...he had a full offensive toolbox to say the least...but you couldn't always get him going, he wasn't always into it...

He just kinda did his own thing in a lot of ways...I guess if I really wanted to grill him (which I don't), you could maybe not be far out of line by saying, he's a little bit like Mario Lemieux in this regard: Mahovlich played for Mahovlich. And Mahovlich did things that Mahovlich wanted to do.

For most of his career, he didn't really play defense at all...I'm not sure he even really killed penalties until the 70's when he got to Montreal...and again, like Mario, I don't think it's because he wanted to, or because he was good defensively, it was just a case of "well, that's the best player in the building...soooo...put him on the rink..."

So I get the numbers...though, I am dismayed and astonished that 1971 is still a net negative for him...he turned it on in that playoff, that had to have been the playoff record for points at that time, right? Considering everything had just multiplied games-wise...

That puts me in a real pickle, as Mahovlich had a good chance to be in my top 3 this round...but that's pretty damning testimony against him...

Still, he could do whatever he wanted when he wanted to...

Four times did a player have a 40+ ES goal season prior to 1970.
Howe in 1952
Mahovlich in 1961
Hull in 1962
Mahovlich again in 1969

And it's not like it became normal course either...it was done like 10 or 11 times in the entire 1970's...it's been done twice since Bure's 2000 season.

Nice Mahovlich summary.

Watch hilites of him defensively and the question gets asked, "Why does a LW wind-up there without the puck?".

 

[Canadiens1958]

Do we have reason to believe Geoffrion's deployment in 1961-62 was significantly less conducive to producing offense than the year prior though? Like you say, there was certainly an offense by committee look to the 1961-62 Habs, but was this by design, or was it just the end result?

Perhaps I'm looking at this a little backwards though. Geoffrion's 1962 production isn't significantly worse than 1959 or 1960. Perhaps 1961 was just a perfect storm situation that produced a really impressive outlier result? Geoffrion was probably six missed GP away from being history's only pre-expansion 100 point player.

1960-61 Geoffrion was extra shifted due to RWs Maurice Richard retiring and Provost being hurt. Hicke and Rousseau were not NHL ready.

1961-62 all RWs were healthy, but Geoffrion missed 8 games playing with minor injuries.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Compared to other players of his era, was Cleghorn any worse than Pronger was compared to players of his era?

Yes. Not close.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Yes. Not close.

Wouldn't go that far.Sprague Cleghorn wasn't alone in engaging in savagery.Newsy Lalonde and Joe Hall comes to mind.

He was exceptional, but not that exceptional.

 

[MXD]

Yes. Not close.

Where does Billy Coutu and Joe Hall fits on that timeline?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Wouldn't go that far.Sprague Cleghorn wasn't alone in engaging in savagery.Newsy Lalonde and Joe Hall comes to mind.

He was exceptional, but not that exceptional.

And Pronger had a new branch of physics named after him.

 

[MXD]

Currently voting.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

As my "voting" post inferred, I'm not exactly loving Pronger for advancement this round, either- but I'm not seeing any evidence that Chris Pronger was even in the top-10 in the league for PiMs. That's as compared to how many Inverted Podium finishes for Cleghorn? [Something like four- although he also has a couple of gaudy PiMs/game played ratios in his abbreviated seasons.]

And that's before even considering the douch-maneuvers like pole-axing the head of a downed opponent, sucker-punching a player 3 inches shorter and 35 pounds lighter after the buzzer, etc...

 

[Captain Bowie]

Sorry I missed the vote this week guys. Been a crazy time the last month or so, dealing with family matters and works been extra busy and some traveling. I've been keeping up with the conversation for the most part but this weekend got away from me and I was traveling this morning.

 

[MXD]

Sorry I missed the vote this week guys. Been a crazy time the last month or so, dealing with family matters and works been extra busy and some traveling. I've been keeping up with the conversation for the most part but this weekend got away from me and I was traveling this morning.

You should probably vote regardless.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I'm disappointed to see this actually. Mahovlich jumps off the page when you watch the games. He's the most technically skilled player on the board for us, and if it wasn't for Dionne, I'd say it's not particularly close either. He was that power forward style of player, that big guy, that can skate really well, protect, pass, shoot, he was a multi-line puck carrier, hands for days...he had a full offensive toolbox to say the least...but you couldn't always get him going, he wasn't always into it...

He just kinda did his own thing in a lot of ways...I guess if I really wanted to grill him (which I don't), you could maybe not be far out of line by saying, he's a little bit like Mario Lemieux in this regard: Mahovlich played for Mahovlich. And Mahovlich did things that Mahovlich wanted to do.

For most of his career, he didn't really play defense at all...I'm not sure he even really killed penalties until the 70's when he got to Montreal...and again, like Mario, I don't think it's because he wanted to, or because he was good defensively, it was just a case of "well, that's the best player in the building...soooo...put him on the rink..."

So I get the numbers...though, I am dismayed and astonished that 1971 is still a net negative for him...he turned it on in that playoff, that had to have been the playoff record for points at that time, right? Considering everything had just multiplied games-wise...

That puts me in a real pickle, as Mahovlich had a good chance to be in my top 3 this round...but that's pretty damning testimony against him...

Still, he could do whatever he wanted when he wanted to...

Four times did a player have a 40+ ES goal season prior to 1970.
Howe in 1952
Mahovlich in 1961
Hull in 1962
Mahovlich again in 1969

And it's not like it became normal course either...it was done like 10 or 11 times in the entire 1970's...it's been done twice since Bure's 2000 season.

I haven't had a chance to read all the recent posts, but has anybody tried to link Mahovlich's personal issues (nervous breakdown reportedly due to hateful fans and the Punch Imlach style of coaching was the tip of the iceberg) and his uneven play. For example, the year he had 48 goals... he scored his 48th with 14 games left in the season, but failed to reach 50. Something's going on there.

Maybe he still would have ignored defense if he was the happiest guy in the world. Or, just imagine his offensive totals if he didn't suffer through personal demons.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I haven't had a chance to read all the recent posts, but has anybody tried to link Mahovlich's personal issues (nervous breakdown reportedly due to hateful fans and the Punch Imlach style of coaching) was the public tip of the iceberg, yet it makes you wonder if anything had always been there) and his uneven play. For example, the year he had 48 goals... he scored his 48th with 14 games left in the season, but failed to reach 50. Something's going on there.

Other players played for the same fans and for Imlach who was not academically inclined or protective of his players like Toe Blake. Jean Beliveau played for both, speaking highly of Blake, silent about Imlach.

Imlach did lose players besides Frank Mahovlich - Brewer, Walton, etc.

Still Frank Mahovlich had issues in other circumstances. 1972 Summit Series got to, unlike others on both sides who thrived. Never integrated fully in Montreal.