Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 12

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Jan 28, 2019.

  1. It's phishing season. Members should beware of an email informing them their password is about to expire. You should delete it. This is a scam to steal passwords.
    Dismiss Notice
  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    10,045
    Likes Received:
    3,962
    Trophy Points:
    201
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Hockeytown, MI
    Procedure
    • You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
    • The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
    • A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

    Eligible Voters
    • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
    • Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

    Guidelines
    • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
    • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
    • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
    • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

    House Rules
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

    The actual voting period will open up on Friday, February 1st at midnight and continue through Sunday, February 3rd at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, February 4th.


    Vote 12 Candidates
    • Andy Bathgate
    • Bernie Geoffrion
    • Charlie Conacher
    • Chris Pronger
    • Earl Seibert
    • Frank Brimsek
    • Frank Mahovlich
    • Marcel Dionne
    • Sprague Cleghorn
    • Ted Kennedy
    • Tim Horton
     
  2. Dirt 101 Dirt, the famous Nevada railway cat

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2004
    Messages:
    32,268
    Likes Received:
    4,863
    Trophy Points:
    232
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Bathgate!
    Cleghorn!
    Kennedy & Horton.

    Oh yeah.
     
  3. sr edler whom

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2010
    Messages:
    9,787
    Likes Received:
    3,845
    Trophy Points:
    171
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Pronger, nice. I want to hear your best arguments Q.
     
    quoipourquoi likes this.
  4. Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    20,020
    Likes Received:
    2,661
    Trophy Points:
    196
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Four comparable, physical defencemen from four distinct eras without overlap.
     
    seventieslord and BenchBrawl like this.
  5. Dirt 101 Dirt, the famous Nevada railway cat

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2004
    Messages:
    32,268
    Likes Received:
    4,863
    Trophy Points:
    232
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Bathgate's 9-year stretch in which he was seven times top-3 in assists, playing for a lowly Rangers franchise not a loaded dynasty, is exceptional.

    Cleghorn was a Wanderers star for over half a decade, went to Ottawa where he was 4th in NHL assists and won the Stanley Cup, went to Boston and Montreal, a Hart finalist in both of these cities. A star everywhere he went.
     
  6. Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    20,020
    Likes Received:
    2,661
    Trophy Points:
    196
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Common link,both Cleghorn and Bathgate were dumped by teams.

    Cleghorn by the pre dynasty Senators, Bathgate by the Leafs who won the 1967 SC while Bathgate spent time in the AHL, sent down by the non-playoff Wings.
     
    ehhedler likes this.
  7. Hockey Outsider Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    6,490
    Likes Received:
    4,650
    Trophy Points:
    216
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Hart trophy voting results (5% threshold)

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
    Ted Kennedy11316
    Andy Bathgate11114
    Marcel Dionne1214
    Frank Brimsek1113
    Bernie Geoffrion112
    Sprague Cleghorn22
    Charlie Conacher112
    Earl Seibert22
    Frank Mahovlich112
    Chris Pronger11
    Tim Horton0
    With the inclusion of Kennedy, all 24 players with 5+ "significant" Hart trophy seasons going back to WWII are either on our list, or are up for voting. A significant disclaimer - Kennedy's win in 1955, in retrospect, looks really weak. (He placed outside of the top ten in scoring overall, and didn't lead his very average team in scoring; I know he was a veteran leader and a good two-way player, but it's tough to imagine him winning the Hart with a comparable season today).

    Speaking of disclaimers - I've included Sprague Cleghorn's two second-place finishes (to Nighbor and Stewart). But both of these took place prior to the consolidation of North American hockey during the 1926-27 season, so they're not directly comparable to the others.

    We all know that Chris Pronger won the Hart in 2000; he received Hart votes in six other seasons (1998, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2010 and 2011), but in each case it was a trivial amount - in fact, in four of those seasons, he just received a single vote, and in the fifth season, it was just two votes.

    Tim Horton received votes for the Hart trophy in three different seasons (1962, 1969, and 1973), but he never broke the 5% threshold, so his score is zero in the table.
     
    BenchBrawl likes this.
  8. Hockey Outsider Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    6,490
    Likes Received:
    4,650
    Trophy Points:
    216
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    VsX results

    Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 7YR 10YR
    Marcel Dionne 116.2 115.1 112.1 100.0 100.0 93.3 86.5 86.3 85.7 79.6 103.3 97.5
    Andy Bathgate 109.9 106.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 98.7 93.0 92.5 85.6 70.2 101.1 95.6
    Charlie Conacher 121.3 120.9 100.0 96.0 95.0 75.0 65.1 52.3 52.3 46.8 96.2 82.5
    Bernie Geoffrion 105.6 101.4 88.8 88.5 87.3 79.5 78.3 70.4 70.2 63.9 89.9 83.4
    Frank Mahovlich 93.3 90.1 89.4 88.1 87.9 84.5 81.4 81.1 72.9 71.8 87.8 84.1
    Ted Kennedy 95.2 92.4 76.7 75.4 72.2 70.3 69.2 63.8 62.3 60.7 78.8 73.8
    Chris Pronger 66.0 62.1 52.8 52.2 51.8 50.5 49.0 43.6 43.0 40.6 54.9 51.1
    Earl Seibert 53.5 53.2 47.7 45.5 44.4 38.9 37.2 35.0 34.7 34.1 45.8 42.4
    Tim Horton 50.8 45.2 40.0 37.4 37.2 36.6 35.9 35.7 33.7 32.6 40.4 38.5
    Bathgate was the last remaining player with a seven-year VsX score of over 100.

    As I've repeated for several weeks now - Conacher's five-year score is excellent, but there's a huge drop-off after that. (Not saying that as a strike against him - he's fallen far enough - but I wanted to point it out).
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  9. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Messages:
    11,027
    Likes Received:
    4,316
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    PA
    Home Page:
    I'm not ready for him necessarily...but the folks who look at the stats on Horton and think lesser of him are not good people. Horton played on a defensive player, he was a rock, he could carry the puck, he had skill, he could hit...stats don't do him justice in terms of his impact...he was a whale of a player...
     
  10. MXD Original #4

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    42,561
    Likes Received:
    6,017
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Dead
    ^^ Yup. I initially overrated Horton a tad (I've ranked him in my Top-50 and ahead of everyone in this group except for Conacher), but he was pretty much an all-rounder D-Men stuck in something of a stiffling system. The best Leaf for their '60ies run of Cups, for all I care.

    The reminder...? I don't know... I don't care much about Mahovlich and Pronger to be honest. There's value at this point in being roughly able to know what to expect from a player. And those two just stick out here. And by "sticking out", I mean "below the level expected".

    And I don't care much about Bathgate either. I mean... I think he's better than Dionne, but if you only get it done with bad teams, it leaves a stigma.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
    BenchBrawl and Canadiens1958 like this.
  11. Dr John Carlson Light is all over us

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2011
    Messages:
    8,725
    Likes Received:
    2,484
    Trophy Points:
    127
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    I rip and run.
    Location:
    Nova Scotia
    Kennedy is probably my biggest riser from before the project to now, he could be in my top-5.

    Still no Firsov!
     
    MXD likes this.
  12. MXD Original #4

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    42,561
    Likes Received:
    6,017
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Dead
    The actual reaction would be a dislike, but I get your point.
     
    Dr John Carlson likes this.
  13. The Macho King World Champion*

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    43,784
    Likes Received:
    20,031
    Trophy Points:
    192
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Ugh... Pronger's overratedness continues.
     
  14. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Messages:
    11,027
    Likes Received:
    4,316
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    PA
    Home Page:
    Would you have Scott Stevens before him, Macho?
     
  15. The Macho King World Champion*

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    43,784
    Likes Received:
    20,031
    Trophy Points:
    192
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    No, but I think we're at about 15-20 places too early for Pronger, and about 30 places too early for Stevens.
     
  16. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    50,823
    Likes Received:
    5,250
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    The lack of Firsov continues to be galling. Mahovlich over Firsov? Ugh.

    Brimsek, Conacher, and Cleghorn should be locks this round.

    Beyond that, I don't know. We have 3 of the five defensemen I see as similar in quality (Horton, Seibert, Pronger, Stevens, MacInnis), but it still seems a bit early for them.
     
  17. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    50,823
    Likes Received:
    5,250
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    Well, we know the Hart that Kennedy actually won was something of a lifetime achievement award. That said, if we take his overall record at all seriously, he has to be a good candidate to go this round, when you consider his sterling playoff record.
     
    BenchBrawl and Hockey Outsider like this.
  18. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Messages:
    11,027
    Likes Received:
    4,316
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    PA
    Home Page:
    Interesting Macho Man, see I like Pronger in this spot...I actually had him (and Stevens, for that matter) higher than where ever he's going to land at this point...I'm looking forward to his tasteful takedown from you...

    For the group at large: How different is Ted Kennedy from Henri Richard...? You can interpret and answer that any way you like...
     
    DannyGallivan likes this.
  19. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2017
    Messages:
    5,274
    Likes Received:
    4,712
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Melonville
    Don't forget, this was a guy who was also a shoe-in for the Conn Smythe during his coffee-break in Edmonton, if not for a different game seven outcome in the finals.
     
  20. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    50,823
    Likes Received:
    5,250
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    Richard was an elite skater and playmaker. Kennedy was neither. Kennedy was a "take the shortest path and don't let anyone stop you" kind of guy. Better goal scorer than Richard though.

    Pronger had great highs, but weak consistency. The anti-Seibert. I also think people forget he was thought of as a big time playoff choker before 2006.
     
    Mike Farkas likes this.
  21. The Macho King World Champion*

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    43,784
    Likes Received:
    20,031
    Trophy Points:
    192
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    There's a few things that make my ears perk up on Pronger.

    His Hart season - probably the weakest Hart win since the Norris came around. Offensive stats tanked to a point that was the lowest Art Ross winner since expansion, and Hasek missed significant time, so it had to go to somebody. Lidstrom had better offensive stats, is a better defender, but Pronger had a super high +/- on the best team in the league.

    Pronger is the one guy where if you take out his peak season, his resume looks like it's probably not even HHOF-worthy (forget top 100). His postseasons are kind of cut in two - pre-lockout he was a disappointment, and post-lockout he has a reputation as a stud (well-deserved, but a bit overvalued). His Norris record is pretty bad, he missed a lot of time, and when he was on the ice, he spent a lot of it in the penalty box.

    Why is he here over say... Niedermayer or Chara?
     
  22. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2017
    Messages:
    5,274
    Likes Received:
    4,712
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Melonville
    I see Pronger as a total package, but I suspect some see his "dirty" play as the reason for his physical/defensive effectiveness. Anybody who watched Pronger after his apprenticeship with MacInnis would see the backbone of any team he was on since then. I think a Conn Smythe/Stanley Cup in '06 would solidify his spot among this group. In this grouping, he is up against some elite, but one-diminsional, goal/point producers and a defenseman who never was "the man" among his peers (Tim Horton). Cleghorn, when you read about him, actually reminds you a lot of Pronger in terms of "competitiveness" (dirtiness) and team leadership.
    Alas, poor Hawerchuk and Kariya may be the other victims of circumstance.
     
  23. MXD Original #4

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    42,561
    Likes Received:
    6,017
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Dead
    Well, neither should be getting anywhere close to this list anyways. Especially Kariya.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  24. The Macho King World Champion*

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    43,784
    Likes Received:
    20,031
    Trophy Points:
    192
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    I don't actually care that Pronger was dirty (except insofar it left his team shorthanded). I actually really liked Pronger a ton while he was playing, but he's had that Forsberg-esque deification that I think belies the facts on the ground. Maybe part of it is credit as a "per game" player.

    He has 2 82 game seasons, another 4 80+, plus another 6 substantial (85% of season or more), so I don't think we're missing a huge chunk of his resume like Forsberg, though. And you don't have a lot of "weird vote" seasons where he placed lower than you would have otherwise thought. 07 is probably the one season where missed time took a Norris from him (but I maintain that Lidstrom should have won 00 so I call that a wash).

    My theory - a league in transition prioritized different skills from the previous generations, and it was searching for a star. Lidstrom played a boring style (no big hits, positioning over physicality), so Pronger was kind of latched onto. He played "old-school" hockey.
     
  25. Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    20,020
    Likes Received:
    2,661
    Trophy Points:
    196
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Henri Richard was a much better skater.

    Both were great centers though Kennedy left the shadow of Apps Sr early in his career, while Henri Richard played in Beliveau's shadow most of his career.
     
    BenchBrawl likes this.

Share This Page

Presented in Association with the Society for International Hockey Research
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"