Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 12

[quoipourquoi]

Procedure

• You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
• A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
  
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, February 1st at midnight and continue through Sunday, February 3rd at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, February 4th.


Vote 12 Candidates

• Andy Bathgate
• Bernie Geoffrion
• Charlie Conacher
• Chris Pronger
• Earl Seibert
• Frank Brimsek
• Frank Mahovlich
• Marcel Dionne
• Sprague Cleghorn
• Ted Kennedy
• Tim Horton

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

Bathgate!
Cleghorn!
Kennedy & Horton.

Oh yeah.

 

[sr edler]

Pronger, nice. I want to hear your best arguments Q.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Four comparable, physical defencemen from four distinct eras without overlap.

 

[VanIslander]

Bathgate's 9-year stretch in which he was seven times top-3 in assists, playing for a lowly Rangers franchise not a loaded dynasty, is exceptional.

Cleghorn was a Wanderers star for over half a decade, went to Ottawa where he was 4th in NHL assists and won the Stanley Cup, went to Boston and Montreal, a Hart finalist in both of these cities. A star everywhere he went.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bathgate's 9-year stretch in which he was seven times top-3 in assists, playing for a lowly Rangers franchise not a loaded dynasty, is exceptional.

Cleghorn was a Wanderers star for over half a decade, went to Ottawa where he was 4th in NHL assists and won the Stanley Cup, went to Boston and Montreal, a Hart finalist in both of these cities. A star everywhere he went.

Common link,both Cleghorn and Bathgate were dumped by teams.

Cleghorn by the pre dynasty Senators, Bathgate by the Leafs who won the 1967 SC while Bathgate spent time in the AHL, sent down by the non-playoff Wings.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Hart trophy voting results (5% threshold)

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th+	Total
Ted Kennedy	1	1			3		1	6
Andy Bathgate	1	1	1		1			4
Marcel Dionne		1	2		1			4
Frank Brimsek		1	1		1			3
Bernie Geoffrion	1						1	2
Sprague Cleghorn		2						2
Charlie Conacher		1		1				2
Earl Seibert				2				2
Frank Mahovlich				1	1			2
Chris Pronger	1							1
Tim Horton								0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

With the inclusion of Kennedy, all 24 players with 5+ "significant" Hart trophy seasons going back to WWII are either on our list, or are up for voting. A significant disclaimer - Kennedy's win in 1955, in retrospect, looks really weak. (He placed outside of the top ten in scoring overall, and didn't lead his very average team in scoring; I know he was a veteran leader and a good two-way player, but it's tough to imagine him winning the Hart with a comparable season today).

Speaking of disclaimers - I've included Sprague Cleghorn's two second-place finishes (to Nighbor and Stewart). But both of these took place prior to the consolidation of North American hockey during the 1926-27 season, so they're not directly comparable to the others.

We all know that Chris Pronger won the Hart in 2000; he received Hart votes in six other seasons (1998, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2010 and 2011), but in each case it was a trivial amount - in fact, in four of those seasons, he just received a single vote, and in the fifth season, it was just two votes.

Tim Horton received votes for the Hart trophy in three different seasons (1962, 1969, and 1973), but he never broke the 5% threshold, so his score is zero in the table.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

VsX results

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7YR	10YR
Marcel Dionne	116.2	115.1	112.1	100.0	100.0	93.3	86.5	86.3	85.7	79.6	103.3	97.5
Andy Bathgate	109.9	106.0	100.0	100.0	100.0	98.7	93.0	92.5	85.6	70.2	101.1	95.6
Charlie Conacher	121.3	120.9	100.0	96.0	95.0	75.0	65.1	52.3	52.3	46.8	96.2	82.5
Bernie Geoffrion	105.6	101.4	88.8	88.5	87.3	79.5	78.3	70.4	70.2	63.9	89.9	83.4
Frank Mahovlich	93.3	90.1	89.4	88.1	87.9	84.5	81.4	81.1	72.9	71.8	87.8	84.1
Ted Kennedy	95.2	92.4	76.7	75.4	72.2	70.3	69.2	63.8	62.3	60.7	78.8	73.8
Chris Pronger	66.0	62.1	52.8	52.2	51.8	50.5	49.0	43.6	43.0	40.6	54.9	51.1
Earl Seibert	53.5	53.2	47.7	45.5	44.4	38.9	37.2	35.0	34.7	34.1	45.8	42.4
Tim Horton	50.8	45.2	40.0	37.4	37.2	36.6	35.9	35.7	33.7	32.6	40.4	38.5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Bathgate was the last remaining player with a seven-year VsX score of over 100.

As I've repeated for several weeks now - Conacher's five-year score is excellent, but there's a huge drop-off after that. (Not saying that as a strike against him - he's fallen far enough - but I wanted to point it out).

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm not ready for him necessarily...but the folks who look at the stats on Horton and think lesser of him are not good people. Horton played on a defensive player, he was a rock, he could carry the puck, he had skill, he could hit...stats don't do him justice in terms of his impact...he was a whale of a player...

 

[MXD]

^^ Yup. I initially overrated Horton a tad (I've ranked him in my Top-50 and ahead of everyone in this group except for Conacher), but he was pretty much an all-rounder D-Men stuck in something of a stiffling system. The best Leaf for their '60ies run of Cups, for all I care.

The reminder...? I don't know... I don't care much about Mahovlich and Pronger to be honest. There's value at this point in being roughly able to know what to expect from a player. And those two just stick out here. And by "sticking out", I mean "below the level expected".

And I don't care much about Bathgate either. I mean... I think he's better than Dionne, but if you only get it done with bad teams, it leaves a stigma.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Kennedy is probably my biggest riser from before the project to now, he could be in my top-5.

Still no Firsov!

 

[MXD]

Still no Firsov!

The actual reaction would be a dislike, but I get your point.

 

[The Macho King]

Ugh... Pronger's overratedness continues.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Would you have Scott Stevens before him, Macho?

 

[The Macho King]

Would you have Scott Stevens before him, Macho?

No, but I think we're at about 15-20 places too early for Pronger, and about 30 places too early for Stevens.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The lack of Firsov continues to be galling. Mahovlich over Firsov? Ugh.

Brimsek, Conacher, and Cleghorn should be locks this round.

Beyond that, I don't know. We have 3 of the five defensemen I see as similar in quality (Horton, Seibert, Pronger, Stevens, MacInnis), but it still seems a bit early for them.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hart trophy voting results (5% threshold)

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th+	Total
Ted Kennedy	1	1			3		1	6
Andy Bathgate	1	1	1		1			4
Marcel Dionne		1	2		1			4
Frank Brimsek		1	1		1			3
Bernie Geoffrion	1						1	2
Sprague Cleghorn		2						2
Charlie Conacher		1		1				2
Earl Seibert				2				2
Frank Mahovlich				1	1			2
Chris Pronger	1							1
Tim Horton								0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

With the inclusion of Kennedy, all 24 players with 5+ "significant" Hart trophy seasons going back to WWII are either on our list, or are up for voting. A significant disclaimer - Kennedy's win in 1955, in retrospect, looks really weak. (He placed outside of the top ten in scoring overall, and didn't lead his very average team in scoring; I know he was a veteran leader and a good two-way player, but it's tough to imagine him winning the Hart with a comparable season today).

Speaking of disclaimers - I've included Sprague Cleghorn's two second-place finishes (to Nighbor and Stewart). But both of these took place prior to the consolidation of North American hockey during the 1926-27 season, so they're not directly comparable to the others.

We all know that Chris Pronger won the Hart in 2000; he received Hart votes in six other seasons (1998, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2010 and 2011), but in each case it was a trivial amount - in fact, in four of those seasons, he just received a single vote, and in the fifth season, it was just two votes.

Tim Horton received votes for the Hart trophy in three different seasons (1962, 1969, and 1973), but he never broke the 5% threshold, so his score is zero in the table.

Well, we know the Hart that Kennedy actually won was something of a lifetime achievement award. That said, if we take his overall record at all seriously, he has to be a good candidate to go this round, when you consider his sterling playoff record.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Interesting Macho Man, see I like Pronger in this spot...I actually had him (and Stevens, for that matter) higher than where ever he's going to land at this point...I'm looking forward to his tasteful takedown from you...

For the group at large: How different is Ted Kennedy from Henri Richard...? You can interpret and answer that any way you like...

 

[DannyGallivan]

Pronger, nice. I want to hear your best arguments Q.

Don't forget, this was a guy who was also a shoe-in for the Conn Smythe during his coffee-break in Edmonton, if not for a different game seven outcome in the finals.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Interesting Macho Man, see I like Pronger in this spot...I actually had him (and Stevens, for that matter) higher than where ever he's going to land at this point...I'm looking forward to his tasteful takedown from you...

For the group at large: How different is Ted Kennedy from Henri Richard...? You can interpret and answer that any way you like...

Richard was an elite skater and playmaker. Kennedy was neither. Kennedy was a "take the shortest path and don't let anyone stop you" kind of guy. Better goal scorer than Richard though.

Pronger had great highs, but weak consistency. The anti-Seibert. I also think people forget he was thought of as a big time playoff choker before 2006.

 

[The Macho King]

Interesting Macho Man, see I like Pronger in this spot...I actually had him (and Stevens, for that matter) higher than where ever he's going to land at this point...I'm looking forward to his tasteful takedown from you...

For the group at large: How different is Ted Kennedy from Henri Richard...? You can interpret and answer that any way you like...

There's a few things that make my ears perk up on Pronger.

His Hart season - probably the weakest Hart win since the Norris came around. Offensive stats tanked to a point that was the lowest Art Ross winner since expansion, and Hasek missed significant time, so it had to go to somebody. Lidstrom had better offensive stats, is a better defender, but Pronger had a super high +/- on the best team in the league.

Pronger is the one guy where if you take out his peak season, his resume looks like it's probably not even HHOF-worthy (forget top 100). His postseasons are kind of cut in two - pre-lockout he was a disappointment, and post-lockout he has a reputation as a stud (well-deserved, but a bit overvalued). His Norris record is pretty bad, he missed a lot of time, and when he was on the ice, he spent a lot of it in the penalty box.

Why is he here over say... Niedermayer or Chara?

 

[DannyGallivan]

I see Pronger as a total package, but I suspect some see his "dirty" play as the reason for his physical/defensive effectiveness. Anybody who watched Pronger after his apprenticeship with MacInnis would see the backbone of any team he was on since then. I think a Conn Smythe/Stanley Cup in '06 would solidify his spot among this group. In this grouping, he is up against some elite, but one-diminsional, goal/point producers and a defenseman who never was "the man" among his peers (Tim Horton). Cleghorn, when you read about him, actually reminds you a lot of Pronger in terms of "competitiveness" (dirtiness) and team leadership.

And I don't care much about Bathgate either. I mean... I think he's better than Dionne, but if you only get it done with bad teams, it leaves a stigma.

Alas, poor Hawerchuk and Kariya may be the other victims of circumstance.

 

[MXD]

Well, neither should be getting anywhere close to this list anyways. Especially Kariya.

 

[The Macho King]

I don't actually care that Pronger was dirty (except insofar it left his team shorthanded). I actually really liked Pronger a ton while he was playing, but he's had that Forsberg-esque deification that I think belies the facts on the ground. Maybe part of it is credit as a "per game" player.

He has 2 82 game seasons, another 4 80+, plus another 6 substantial (85% of season or more), so I don't think we're missing a huge chunk of his resume like Forsberg, though. And you don't have a lot of "weird vote" seasons where he placed lower than you would have otherwise thought. 07 is probably the one season where missed time took a Norris from him (but I maintain that Lidstrom should have won 00 so I call that a wash).

My theory - a league in transition prioritized different skills from the previous generations, and it was searching for a star. Lidstrom played a boring style (no big hits, positioning over physicality), so Pronger was kind of latched onto. He played "old-school" hockey.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Interesting Macho Man, see I like Pronger in this spot...I actually had him (and Stevens, for that matter) higher than where ever he's going to land at this point...I'm looking forward to his tasteful takedown from you...

For the group at large: How different is Ted Kennedy from Henri Richard...? You can interpret and answer that any way you like...

Henri Richard was a much better skater.

Both were great centers though Kennedy left the shadow of Apps Sr early in his career, while Henri Richard played in Beliveau's shadow most of his career.