Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 10

[MXD]

It's not unique to this particular list - recognition for still-active players has always lagged a few years behind on HOH

Actually, I was trying to be funny, in a 1+1=2 sort of way.

 

[The Macho King]

Hey I actually had Malkin pretty high and above Forsberg. I feel good about myself now.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Let’s not focus on Malkin and Lindros but instead players like Brad Park... who I will probably leave unranked on my ballot again.

 

[Nick Hansen]

I think Malkin and Forsberg should be pretty close as well.

Lindros, no. He won his Hart and Pearson during a shortened season and even then he managed to miss two games. Neck and neck with Jagr, though, which is impressive.

edit: okay, that was my last words on this.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Let’s not focus on Malkin and Lindros but instead players like Brad Park... who I will probably leave unranked on my ballot again.

Think you are really undervaluing Park.

What makes Pilote better than Park?

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Sorting the Pack

Classifying the Forwards on offer this Round:

α: Alpha Dogs- the ones who were the primary threat for their team:
Charlie Conacher, Syl Apps

II: Dynamic-Duo guys- 1/1a types: Schmidt, Forsberg

"Robin/Nightwing"- H. Richard

β: Geoffrion

At some point, teammate strength/help has to count for something when making these assessments. For example: Béliveau>Joe Primeau, Dickie Moore>Busher Jackson, Doug Harvey>King Clancy. Geoffrion had some flourishes in The Playoffs- betas oft-times do... kind of like Rick MacLeish on 33⅓.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Pilote does have 3 Norris Trophies. Strength of which I leave to the participants to decide.

Bernie Geoffrion was a weak skater, defensive liability.

1961 career year result of Maurice Richard retiring, Claude Provost missing 21 games with an ankle injury, giving him extra TOI.

Overall marginally better or important than Reggie Leach.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

A partial repost of mine, from the "Centers" project:

"The Best Years of Our Lives":

Schmidt had three of the young-prime years of his career ripped out by World War II. I hope that we can make a relevant distinction between time lost to tragic-death v. time lost to injury v. time lost to languishing in lesser leagues v. time lost due to World War. That latter one, in particular (and the latter two, in general) should be held on a higher plane. We are not giving credit for what might have been, but instead for what was, absent extraordinary conditions not at all in control of the player. Milt Schmidt did not stop being a good hockey player in 1943. He had other business to which to attend. So did Apps. Apps was more offensively consistent, so we judged the time-loss in that light (I think). If so- that's fair... but Apps lost ages 29 & 30. Schmidt lost ages 24-25-26. Based on what we know of career-arcs, the latter is the more significant loss.

I restate this here, not because I'm pursuing advocacy of Schmidt over Apps [I'm not], nor because I'm sure either of these players merits advancement this Round [I'm on-the-fence with one, and inclining to probably not for the other], but because it's a factor to be considered amongst all the other factors involved in our decision in this and future Rounds. Further to our judgements on Schmidt is a point that one of our esteemed panelists, 'pappyline,' made all those years ago- that Schmidt actually stopped playing hockey entirely during his Wartime Service, and his restart involved a process of getting his "ice legs" back underneath him. [C.f.: Baseball Spring Training in the Bad Old Days, where ballplayers routinely 'played their way into shape.']

Since I posted the material above, I know now that my musings were incomplete, since there are other categories of time-loss to be considered, e.g.: holdouts, and what I consider to be Tretiak's semi-involuntary retirement.

Schmidt and Apps are both great Hockey biography stories. They should be told and retold- and History of Hockey is a good place to keep that spirit alive. We can wax, in Shakespearean paraphrase, that "these stories shall the good man teach his son."

Great as the life-stories are, I don't quite think I'm going to place Schmidt above a couple of our long-bypassed Defensemen on my ballot this time. [And not really sure I'll put Apps over them, either.] I have absolutely no problem placing both above Forsberg and Geoffrion, though.

 

[Canadiens1958]

One minor correction.

Not necessary if certain posters fact checked before submitting their comments.

Milt Schmidt DID PLAY HOCKEY FOR THE RCAF BASED IN OTTAWA.

Milt Schmidt - Wikipedia

 

[pappyline]

One minor correction.

Not necessary if certain posters fact checked before submitting their comments.

Milt Schmidt DID PLAY HOCKEY FOR THE RCAF BASED IN OTTAWA.

Milt Schmidt - Wikipedia

Only briefly. I met Milt Schmidt a few years ago. He told me himself that the fans booed him so much when he played for the RCAF that he quit and never played again for the remainder of his service,

 

[VanIslander]

Schmidt... where the **** is Cowley?

(I know, I know... not 120th worthy because he admitted he didn't backcheck.)

 

[snu22fint]

Forsberg is pretty underrated I guess, considering he did this while also being a 2-way-beast.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Only briefly. I met Milt Schmidt a few years ago. He told me himself that the fans booed him so much when he played for the RCAF that he quit and never played again for the remainder of his service,

To be sure. I have specific memory of your previous mention on the topic- and this, too, can be cross-referenced by reviewing the relevant posts from the "Centers" project- which happily survived the migration complete.

Must have been awesome to get Schmidt's personal testimony on matters. Thanks for posting today. Saved me the trouble of platform-searching for that post. (If our paths ever cross IRL, first round of Goose Island's on me! [or do you prefer Revolution?!])

 

[Canadiens1958]

Only briefly. I met Milt Schmidt a few years ago. He told me himself that the fans booed him so much when he played for the RCAF that he quit and never played again for the remainder of his service,

Ottawa RCAF played in Quebec where there were anti-war sentiments. Regardless Schmidt played contrary to the claim.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Schmidt... where the **** is Cowley?

(I know, I know... not 120th worthy because he admitted he didn't backcheck.)

My list closer to Schmidt than Forsberg to Sakic.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Overall marginally better or important than Reggie Leach.

Now I'm a Reggie Leach appreciator and all that, but c'mon. Boom-Boom was a stand-alone super star in his own right. The second player ever to score 50 goals, Hart, Art Ross, playoff excellence.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Now I'm a Reggie Leach appreciator and all that, but c'mon. Boom-Boom was a stand-alone super star in his own right. The second player ever to score 50 goals, Hart, Art Ross, playoff excellence.

How often did you see prime Geoffrion play?

The Babe Dye of the fifties.

 

[wetcoast]

Now I'm a Reggie Leach appreciator and all that, but c'mon. Boom-Boom was a stand-alone super star in his own right. The second player ever to score 50 goals, Hart, Art Ross, playoff excellence.

Exactly, the Leach comp is extremely puzzling.

In 60-61 Boom Boom outscored a same age Jean Beliveau in less games.

 

[ted2019]

Not that huge of a Lindros guy, I guess.

After watching both of their careers from start to finish, during their peak/prime (of which I hold much value, since that is what ultimately defines just how good the player was) Lindros was more dominant. It's very unfortunate that Lindros was made of glass, but whatever.

...Big E hasn't come up for votes yet, so it's time to give 'im a rest for now.

Hung out at the club a few times. Eric a good dude, he just didn't like a lot of attention away from the rink.

 

[ted2019]

My very early take:
1 & 2. Syl Apps Sr & Brad Park
3/4/5. Milt Schmidt, Paul Coffey , Henri Richard
6/7/8. Peter Forsberg , Bernie Geofrion , Vladislav Tretiak
9/10/ Ken Dryden, Pierre Pilote

My 1st 2 choices most likely won't change.
Schmidt is a favorite of mine, but not sure if he can be Coffey's offense & Richard's strong 2 way play.
Forsberg & Geoffrion will most likely be fighting it out for 6th & 7th, with Tretiak 8th
Dryden is a product of his team & Pilote I have change my mind on and think that It's a bit early for him.

Heading into the voting stage, I made several changes.
1. Syl Apps Sr
2. Peter Forsberg
3/4/5. Milt Schmidt , Paul Coffey, Henri Richard
6/7/8. Brad Park , Pierre Pilote, Vladislav Tretiak
9/10 Ken Dryden, Bernie Geoffrion
11. Charlie Conacher

Apps Sr. is my clear top dog. He has the most impressive VsX out of everyone.
Forsberg has slid into 2nd place. He comes up better then I thought he would in this round.
Spots 3 through 5 are locked down, still working on the order. I still think Henri isn't getting the credit he deserves.
Still too early for me to take Dryden & Conacher seriously.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Henri Richard should rank higher than Milt Schmidt. They were both great defensive players with fairly similar stats. But we KNOW Henri Richard rarely played on the PP. While we merely SUSPECT Schmidt had SOME seasons that he didn't play much on the powerplay.

Schmidt's Kraut Line absolutely had to be playing on the top PP in 1939-40 when Schmidt won the Art Ross, as his line finished 1-2-3 in NHL scoring. And after the war, Cowley had left. IMO, that more than makes up for the small edge Schmidt has in 7 year VsX

 

[Canadiens1958]

Henri Richard should rank higher than Milt Schmidt. They were both great defensive players with fairly similar stats. But we KNOW Henri Richard rarely played on the PP. While we merely SUSPECT Schmidt had SOME seasons that he didn't play much on the powerplay.

Schmidt's Kraut Line absolutely had to be playing on the top PP in 1939-40 when Schmidt won the Art Ross, as his line finished 1-2-3 in NHL scoring. And after the war, Cowley had left. IMO, that more than makes up for the small edge Schmidt has in 7 year VsX

Schmidt on the PP, overpass offers some insight.

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 10

Part of the equation is post WWII,
the Bruins lacked "natural" scorers. Lacked a point blaster until Doug Mohns developed.

 

[MXD]

Schmidt on the PP, overpass offers some insight.

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 10

Part of the equation is post WWII,
the Bruins lacked "natural" scorers. Lacked a point blaster until Doug Mohns developed.

^^Didn't they have the first point blaster manning their blueline^^?
(I might be wrong here)

 

[Canadiens1958]

^^Didn't they have the first point blaster manning their blueline^^?
(I might be wrong here)

Not post WWII

 

[seventieslord]

Good catch - yes, I posted the numbers for Syl Apps Jr accidentally. I updated the table.

Could you repost on this page please?