Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Canadiens1958]

I'd like more detail in your response. How do you compare Martin Brodeur with Bobby Orr?

Both joined struggling NHL teams and contributed to turning the teams into SC winners.

Look at the details, supporting data, overall team structure and decide.

 

[The Macho King]

So then, you can probably compare Bobby Orr to Dan Marino or Mickey Mantle too.

I can comfortably say I think Bobby Orr is a better hockey player than Dan Marino and Mickey Mantle.

Much better, but pretty difficult to compare across generations (whereas shot data and GA have been historically tracked). At any rate, is there some measure of quality chances that shows Chara to be as good relative to the league in 2008 and 2009 as McDavid has been in 2017 and 2018? I’d settle for someone presenting an argument for 2018 Hedman/Doughty over teammates Kucherov/Kopitar at this point - or really any year where someone believes the top-3 Norris nominees contained better individual seasons than the top-3 Art Ross finishers (2000?).

I'll actually give this a bit of thought and get back to you on the Hedman v. Kucherov issue. A lot of it comes from "how would the team look if you took Hedman off of it versus how would it look if you took Kucherov off of it." Being such a good offensive team, I think we could stand losing our top point producer much more easily than our top defenseman. But that is probably unfair to Kuch since it's not his fault we get 60 points out of our 3rd liners.

I think the argument would have been easier last season - when Hedman was 3rd in the voting and Kucherov was 5th in points (but like 2nd in PPG I think), but 100 points in this era is so rare that I'm having a hard time convincing *myself* that Hedman was better than Kucherov last season...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Re: Chara every bit as dominant as Crosby

I don't see it that way necessarily. Dominant Crosby has more dimensions than Chara. Chara was physically imposing and strong defensively...good rebound clearance man...box out principles...became better and more disciplined with age.

Dominant Crosby can lead the league in goals, assists, points and play a 200-foot game (like he does in the playoffs...the Selke votes he gets now are pretty misinformed...I say this as someone who has watched over 1,000 consecutive Penguins games)...Crosby would be worthy of these fringe Selke votes in the playoffs for sure...not in the RS.

Chara is not a strong puck carrier or outlet passer (relative to dominant players, that is), struggles to make forecheckers miss, etc. You can't have puck skills as faulty as this and be considered as dominant.

Harvey, Bourque, etc. now that's a different story...Hedman in TB different story...those guys can do it all...those are players that can add a dimension without losing one...that's a sign of all-time greatness...

Chara isn't quite on that level for me. Now, like Pronger, Chara gets major points from me for dragging a sub-optimal goaltender to the promised land...between the two of them: Dwayne Roloson, Jussi Markkanen, Tim Thomas, Jean-Sebastien Giguere, Michael Leighton as Final goalies...that's unbelievable...all with major flaws...any list that's headed by someone as unathletic as JSG might as well have a Jerry Lewis telethon attached to it...that scores big points for me, as that's a sign that he was super dominant at his trade.

I mentioned it in one of these threads with Ovechkin in this past Stanley Cup Playoffs...adapted his game, but still brought the noise (led the playoffs in goals, power play goals and shots) but wasn't playing like he was alone on the rink for the first time...naturally, he's only done it once...but I think he's a good enough player to understand that he changed and was rewarded for it...

 

[quoipourquoi]

And as I've correctly pointed out the NHL and as a by product, the media, since Bobby Orr, have made it a regular occurance to push the narrative that only F's can be considered most valuable/best.

What evidence do we have for this conspiracy to elevate forwards and why did it not preclude Liut, Peeters, Fuhr, Roy, Belfour, McLean, Vanbiesbrouck, Hasek, Cechmanek, Burke, Theodore, Brodeur, Kiprusoff, Luongo, Mason, Thomas, Miller, Bryzgalov, and Price from getting more attention in individual seasons than maybe just a handful of defensemen in-between Orr and Karlsson/Burns?

What is to be gained for the supposedly pushed narrative against defensemen? And is there a sharp divide between HFBoards and the media on these individual seasons (2016 Karlsson comes to mind in the end of the year poll, but playoffs obviously played a factor in his Hart voting). Because this Chara=Crosby/Ovechkin thing is blowing my mind when even in Norris voting, he was a coin flip choice for voters with Mike Green.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Defensemen have an award from the media...Norris. The goalie award is voted on by the GMs...

Thus, high-scoring forward or redonk goalie gets Hart love...d-men don't. Half of their game isn't measurable either, which media types lean on as a crutch. I don't think it's a conspiracy...it's just that the game is too expansive for every Tom, Dick and Harry to get their arms around...

 

[quoipourquoi]

I'll actually give this a bit of thought and get back to you on the Hedman v. Kucherov issue. A lot of it comes from "how would the team look if you took Hedman off of it versus how would it look if you took Kucherov off of it." Being such a good offensive team, I think we could stand losing our top point producer much more easily than our top defenseman. But that is probably unfair to Kuch since it's not his fault we get 60 points out of our 3rd liners.

I think the argument would have been easier last season - when Hedman was 3rd in the voting and Kucherov was 5th in points (but like 2nd in PPG I think), but 100 points in this era is so rare that I'm having a hard time convincing *myself* that Hedman was better than Kucherov last season...

The teammate examples are really great for contextualizing cross-position awards value. Ozolinsh and Bourque took 1st Team selections in Colorado’s two President’s Trophy seasons, but if you said they had better seasons than any of Colorado’s big-3, someone would look at you like you had two heads.

Assuming Hedman=Kucherov, one could confidently name anywhere from 3-6 forwards as having better seasons than the Norris winner (McDavid, MacKinnon, Giroux, Hall, Malkin, Kopitar). Throw in Rinne, and the lack of top-3 Hart votes for defensemen makes sense this year. And this was a pretty strong Norris winner!

 

[Canadiens1958]

Re: Chara every bit as dominant as Crosby

I don't see it that way necessarily. Dominant Crosby has more dimensions than Chara. Chara was physically imposing and strong defensively...good rebound clearance man...box out principles...became better and more disciplined with age.

Dominant Crosby can lead the league in goals, assists, points and play a 200-foot game (like he does in the playoffs...the Selke votes he gets now are pretty misinformed...I say this as someone who has watched over 1,000 consecutive Penguins games)...Crosby would be worthy of these fringe Selke votes in the playoffs for sure...not in the RS.

Chara is not a strong puck carrier or outlet passer (relative to dominant players, that is), struggles to make forecheckers miss, etc. You can't have puck skills as faulty as this and be considered as dominant.

Harvey, Bourque, etc. now that's a different story...Hedman in TB different story...those guys can do it all...those are players that can add a dimension without losing one...that's a sign of all-time greatness...

Chara isn't quite on that level for me. Now, like Pronger, Chara gets major points from me for dragging a sub-optimal goaltender to the promised land...between the two of them: Dwayne Roloson, Jussi Markkanen, Tim Thomas, Jean-Sebastien Giguere, Michael Leighton as Final goalies...that's unbelievable...all with major flaws...any list that's headed by someone as unathletic as JSG might as well have a Jerry Lewis telethon attached to it...that scores big points for me, as that's a sign that he was super dominant at his trade.

I mentioned it in one of these threads with Ovechkin in this past Stanley Cup Playoffs...adapted his game, but still brought the noise (led the playoffs in goals, power play goals and shots) but wasn't playing like he was alone on the rink for the first time...naturally, he's only done it once...but I think he's a good enough player to understand that he changed and was rewarded for it...

True overall but there is that single series.

 

[The Macho King]

Defensemen have an award from the media...Norris. The goalie award is voted on by the GMs...

Thus, high-scoring forward or redonk goalie gets Hart love...d-men don't. Half of their game isn't measurable either, which media types lean on as a crutch. I don't think it's a conspiracy...it's just that the game is too expansive for every Tom, Dick and Harry to get their arms around...

I know the comparison is thin, but looking at the Hart voting pre-Norris versus post-Norris does lead to the case that maybe the Norris and the Hart should be viewed as comparable trophies that sometimes have overlapping players.

I can see arguments each way. But I'm sure my view is somewhat skewed from the fact that I spent 90% of my fandom with a team that didn't have a great Dman until recently. There is so much mental relaxation that goes into seeing Hedman out there on a defensive faceoff against Crosby than say Andrej Sustr.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't consider the media the same O6 vs post-O6...I think the media gradually lost their grip on the game from 1967 on...so I wouldn't expect it to have an effect...they had to tell the story, they were the gatekeeper, not much TV coverage, six teams, 15-man rosters or whatever, not 105 game seasons...just easier to track and watch...I think it's evident in the writing.

I don't say that to be difficult, I legitimately feel that way and always have (well, since I started reading the old newspaper article)...

By the way, it would be helpful to know how best to do newspaper work these days...if you opened up a briefcase with a million dollars in it right now, I couldn't figure out how to use Google's newspaper archive...I used to be awesome at it...now I can't even get yesterday's paper ("who wants yesterday's papers...who wants yesterday's girl?")

 

[ted2019]

I don't think McDavid was more valuable than peak Chara, but nevermind that.Even if he was, so what? I'm not big on longevity myself, but 2 years and a half (with no team success!) is a joke.

At his best Lindros was much better than a lot of people.Should we rank him in the Top 20?

Lindros will be in my top 120 somewhere.

 

[ted2019]

So some questions for those who are taking part. How do you go about your rankings and figuring out what is most important?
Era, peak, longevity, dominance over peers, dominance across generations, statistical dominance, era adjusted statistical dominance, team success? Just NHL? Do you put a lot of stock in someone being the first to accomplish something or more stock into someone doing it better than them? Do you factor in playoffs and international play as well as regular season play?

All of the above in my case. However, to me a player like McDavid and his 209 games in the league won't make it, no matter on how good he might be.

 

[ted2019]

Again, I think it depends on how YOU (or anyone) defines "best". Why IS McDavid the best player in the league? Because he scores lots of points? His elite skating ability? Vision? I'm not saying I don't think McD deserves to be in the conversation but why do you think defensemen in general don't get the same recognition that F's do? Is it REALLY because F's are better hockey players and impact the game in a greater manner?

People forget Chara was a 50+ point defensemen for a few seasons (think 08-09-12) while, IMO, being the absolute #1 shutdown player in hockey. One the ice for 26+ minutes a night. Look at his offensive/defensive zone start #'s compared to others in the same time period. It's not like this guy was Rod Langway inept offensively and just about every metric you look at you realize how dominant he was at ES and on the PK. Then there's the simple eye test.

Sure it's very easy to look at a player like McDavid and say "he's the best" because in many ways it's what the league and voters have pre conditioned us to believe.

I look at Chara that if you could combine the first half of Scott Stevens career with the 2nd half of Stevens' career, you would get peak Chara.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I can comfortably say I think Bobby Orr is a better hockey player than Dan Marino and Mickey Mantle.



I'll actually give this a bit of thought and get back to you on the Hedman v. Kucherov issue. A lot of it comes from "how would the team look if you took Hedman off of it versus how would it look if you took Kucherov off of it." Being such a good offensive team, I think we could stand losing our top point producer much more easily than our top defenseman. But that is probably unfair to Kuch since it's not his fault we get 60 points out of our 3rd liners.

I think the argument would have been easier last season - when Hedman was 3rd in the voting and Kucherov was 5th in points (but like 2nd in PPG I think), but 100 points in this era is so rare that I'm having a hard time convincing *myself* that Hedman was better than Kucherov last season...

That's a good one, actually. That's like comparing Bobby Hull to Hasek. Orr is a much better hockey player, while Hasek is a much better goaltender. So would I put Hull seventh overall and Hasek... 50th? Or would I put Hasek 8th? Both spots make about as much sense. Might as well compare place kickers to quarterbacks.

 

[ted2019]

I'll always say that you can't compare goaltenders to skaters. I'd like to see goalies have their own category. Is Roy better than Bobby Hull? Is Hasek better than Jean Beliveau?

If you don't have a goalie that can stop a beach ball, then you don't win anything. Hasek in my opinion, is the greatest goalie in NHL history. He took a team like the Sabres on his back many seasons, not just making the playoffs, but going on several lengthy runs. 2 Hart trophies, 1 2nd place, 2 3rd place finishes within a 6 year period is quite impressive. Don't forget 6 Vezina's in 8 years. That is quite a peak.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I've got my preliminary 120 list, just need to some heavy reading to try and move people around

For those of you who have ~120 names down, how many active players do you have? I have 7 active players (who are not washed like Chara) out of my 120 and didn't know if that felt low. I've got the obvious suspects, Crosby, Ovechkin, Kane, Malkin, Karlsson, Doughty and Keith.

Is there anyone else even worth considering?

 

[ted2019]

I think Chara at his absolute best was every bit as dominant a hockey player as anyone (Crosby, Ovechkin) during that time frame. His dominance is just harder for the average fan to appreciate and in some cases, see. And as I've correctly pointed out the NHL and as a by product, the media, since Bobby Orr, have made it a regular occurance to push the narrative that only F's can be considered most valuable/best.

There used to be a time when Dmen were appreciated on the whole a lot more than they are today (generally speaking, pre WWII).

That's because it's more sexy to score goals then to stop them.

 

[The Macho King]

I've got my preliminary 120 list, just need to some heavy reading to try and move people around

For those of you who have ~120 names down, how many active players do you have? I have 7 active players (who are not washed like Chara) out of my 120 and didn't know if that felt low. I've got the obvious suspects, Crosby, Ovechkin, Kane, Malkin, Karlsson, Doughty and Keith.

Is there anyone else even worth considering?

Toews.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Toews.

If the list was 200 maybe

 

[Theokritos]

By the way, it would be helpful to know how best to do newspaper work these days...if you opened up a briefcase with a million dollars in it right now, I couldn't figure out how to use Google's newspaper archive...I used to be awesome at it...now I can't even get yesterday's paper ("who wants yesterday's papers...who wants yesterday's girl?")

The answer is somewhere between the buttons.

No, in seriousness: Using the google newspaper archives isn't half as comfortable as it used to be. The remaining options:

Yeah, Google did away with a lot of the great functionality when they merged their archive engine and web engine. (...)

1. Use Google Web Search to find content from 1970 to present
Go to www.google.com and type in your search term and click Enter.
Go to Search tools below the search box.
From the menu that appears, click the Any time drop-down list and select the Custom range option.
In the box that appears, type your specified dates.
The search results you see will be within the dates you entered.

2. Use Google Newspaper to find content earlier than 1970
To locate an article from a scanned newspaper, go to www.google.com and type in site:google.com/newspapers, followed by the search terms you’d like to use. For example, if you’re searching for a scanned article on Bill Gadsby, you would type the following in the search box:

site:google.com/newspapers "Bill Gadsby"

 

[Sentinel]

So now Pronger is responsible for the JSG success? What??

 

[Michael Farkas]

Responsible? Maybe maybe not. Giguere is not a very talented player in the grand scheme...I just merely mentioned the common thread of average or worse goalies that Chara and Pronger gave a ride to the SCF...

 

[The Macho King]

Responsible? Maybe maybe not. Giguere is not a very talented player in the grand scheme...I just merely mentioned the common thread of average or worse goalies that Chara and Pronger gave a ride to the SCF...

JSG took a ride to the SCF without Pronger as well. Historically he may not be a great goalie, but for a moment in time he was something else.

As far as Chara - look, my team got whipped in 7 that year, and it was a large part because of Tim Thomas turning into Hasek. I don't want to give too much credit for #1 Dmen in those years when goaltenders - for brief moments - are more prone than any other position to extreme performances.

 

[MXD]

JSG took a ride to the SCF without Pronger as well. Historically he may not be a great goalie, but for a moment in time he was something else.

As far as Chara - look, my team got whipped in 7 that year, and it was a large part because of Tim Thomas turning into Hasek. I don't want to give too much credit for #1 Dmen in those years when goaltenders - for brief moments - are more prone than any other position to extreme performances.

It could be worse -- that year, my team got whipped because Dennis Seidenberg and Michael Ryder FFS.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Not to worry, i probably won't be submitting any list, barring a miracle off ice. These two issues certainly looks like becoming quite the grinds.
But hopefully i can join in the discussions sometimes.

 

[Beau Knows]

Glad to see the top 100 list being updated, I enjoyed following some of the other projects on here.

I sure hope Malkin makes this top 100.

McDavid - I think he's one of the best 100 players ever in that I don't think 100 players have ever played the game better than he has. But these lists have to place value on career accomplishments as well, if you include someone with 2 seasons played in total than you might as well just rank the players by who had the best single season.