Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[MXD]

I've got my preliminary 120 list, just need to some heavy reading to try and move people around

For those of you who have ~120 names down, how many active players do you have? I have 7 active players (who are not washed like Chara) out of my 120 and didn't know if that felt low. I've got the obvious suspects, Crosby, Ovechkin, Kane, Malkin, Karlsson, Doughty and Keith.

Is there anyone else even worth considering?

I didn't put up my list but I'll drop two non-Chara, non-Jagr names that are probably worth considering (The first one I'm fairly sure about making it at the end of the list, despite being a player I do not particularily appreciate; the second, well, is exactly the kind of player that you don't think should make it, until you realize that you'd be ignoring him for the wrong reasons, and that, correctly assessed, he's absolutely a list candidate, without being a list lock).

Those players are, respectively, Joe Thornton and Henrik Lundqvist.

 

[DannyGallivan]

If you don't have a goalie that can stop a beach ball, then you don't win anything. Hasek in my opinion, is the greatest goalie in NHL history. He took a team like the Sabres on his back many seasons, not just making the playoffs, but going on several lengthy runs. 2 Hart trophies, 1 2nd place, 2 3rd place finishes within a 6 year period is quite impressive. Don't forget 6 Vezina's in 8 years. That is quite a peak.

My whole point is that, while they all play in hockey games, how can you compare the skill set of a goalie with the skill set of a skater? You can't.

 

[The Macho King]

You're not comparing their skillset - you're comparing their impact.

And this discussion is going to kill livers.

From the OP:

Quality Assurance

• ...
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

 

[The Macho King]

I didn't put up my list but I'll drop two non-Chara, non-Jagr names that are probably worth considering (The first one I'm fairly sure about making it at the end of the list, despite being a player I do not particularily appreciate; the second, well, is exactly the kind of player that you don't think should make it, until you realize that you'd be ignoring him for the wrong reasons, and that, correctly assessed, he's absolutely a list candidate, without being a list lock).

Those players are, respectively, Joe Thornton and Henrik Lundqvist.

Hank is interesting to me. Only one Vezina, but high finishes. Always in the discussion for best goaltender, and definitely the best goaltender over the post-lockout span, but rarely the best in an individual season.

In an era of high quality goaltending across the board (little difference between #3 and #13 goaltender in a given year), how do you rank post-lockout goaltending? I'm assuming Dr. No (is that the goaltending guru?) has looked at stuff like standard deviations over the mean/median for starters. I wonder how impactful being a great goaltender is in this generation?

 

[quoipourquoi]

That's because it's more sexy to score goals then to stop them.

Defensemen don’t really “stop goals.” I mean, they can. Lidstrom had that awesome save in the 1997 WCF that made every highlight reel. What they do mostly is suppress opportunity. They’re a filter between what actually affects the measure of “goals”: shots and saves. If a defenseman is so good individually that we can measure the level of suppression of opportunity relative to a league average player in the same role and show that because so many fewer shots were attempted that their individual presence had a measurable impact on the score equal to a scorer/goaltender, I’m all for it.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I didn't put up my list but I'll drop two non-Chara, non-Jagr names that are probably worth considering (The first one I'm fairly sure about making it at the end of the list, despite being a player I do not particularily appreciate; the second, well, is exactly the kind of player that you don't think should make it, until you realize that you'd be ignoring him for the wrong reasons, and that, correctly assessed, he's absolutely a list candidate, without being a list lock).

Those players are, respectively, Joe Thornton and Henrik Lundqvist.

Thornton falls into the category with Chara, so he's in the ballpark. I've got 12 goalies in my top 120, Lundqvist is a fringe top 20 goalie of all time maybe IMO and I never considered him.

Without posting my full list, this is what my breakdown looks like for position and decade the player peaked for my first cut of my 120. Happy with how balanced it looks in terms of decades and positionally.

Positional Breakdown
C	36	30.00%
LW	13	10.83%
RW	18	15.00%
D	41	34.17%
G	12	10.00%
Totals	120

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Year Breakdown
Pre	1	0.83%
10s	6	5.00%
20s	6	5.00%
30s	13	10.83%
40s	10	8.33%
50s	12	10.00%
60s	12	10.00%
70s	15	12.50%
80s	13	10.83%
90s	14	11.67%
00s	13	10.83%
2010s	5	4.17%
Total	120

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[quoipourquoi]

I've got 12 goalies in my top 120, Lundqvist is a fringe top 20 goalie of all time maybe IMO and I never considered him.

I have... slightly more.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I have... slightly more.

How much is slightly?

I'm confident that the 12 I've got are top 100 players and would make the list even though 2 are in the 101-110 range, but after them it becomes a little harder for me to make their cases.

 

[quoipourquoi]

How much is slightly?

I'm confident that the 12 I've got are top 100 players and would make the list even though 2 are in the 101-110 range, but after them it becomes a little harder for me to make their cases.

Double it.

 

[MXD]

Thornton falls into the category with Chara, so he's in the ballpark. I've got 12 goalies in my top 120, Lundqvist is a fringe top 20 goalie of all time maybe IMO and I never considered him.

See... If you have 12 netminders in your Top-120, then it probably ensues that Lundqvist doesn't quite make it. I mean, on top of my head, the Top-12 are Roy, Hasek, Plante, Hall, Brodeur, Dryden, Sawchuk, Vezina, Gardiner, Benedict, Brimsek and one of Durnan or Broda. You can make it a Top-13 to include them in all in the Top-120.

Also, on top of my head, all of these would probably make my Top-120, presumably with some room for a few other players.

At some point, rather in early in that process, you'd think Ed Belfour would possibly make it, right? This is probably exactly the moment where you have to ponder whether Lundqvist is a relevant new candidate.

Note : I don't think we can avoid a stretch where there was no active Top-120 goalie. On top of my head, the lull between Benedict/Vezina/Gardiner and Broda/Brimsek/Durnan (Frankly, a list with none of these goalies making it would be more than just a tad unbalanced... and Worters is, to me at least, something of a fringe candidate).

 

[ResilientBeast]

See... If you have 12 netminders in your Top-120, then it probably ensues that Lundqvist doesn't quite make it. I mean, on top of my head, the Top-12 are Roy, Hasek, Plante, Hall, Brodeur, Dryden, Sawchuk, Vezina, Gardiner, Benedict, Brimsek and one of Durnan or Broda. You can make it a Top-13 to include them in all in the Top-120.

Also, on top of my head, all of these would probably make my Top-120, presumably with some room for a few other players.

At some point, rather in early in that process, you'd think Ed Belfour would possibly make it, right? This is probably exactly the moment where you have to ponder whether Lundqvist is a relevant new candidate.

Note : I don't think we can avoid a stretch where there was no active Top-120 goalie.

I've got Charlie Gardiner in the top 12 over Broda/Durnam.

Belfour among the players I've got listed past 120

To the last point, I struggled with that, but I don't think it's necessary to satisfy that criteria

 

[ResilientBeast]

The problem is if we're looking at best and most impactful especially when comparing cross positionally Lundy just seems to fall flat for me.

Quick look at HR
AST: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 7, 8, 9
Vezina: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6

He's racked up a good amount of votes, but he just never felt unbeatable. Maybe because a good portion of the goalies on my list I never got to watch and there's some bias there.

He just never quite could get there, he made an Cup finals but how much of that was him?

His biggest competition (who peaked around the same time)

Luongo
AST: 2, 2, 3, 5, 5, 8, 10
Vezina: 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 7, 9

How big is the gap really?

Hell Brodeur after Lundy entered the league peaked higher
AST: 1, 1, 2, 3, 8
Vezina: 1, 1, 1, 3

I can understand the value of longevity as a top 10 goalie, but he was the best goalie in the league by voting a handful of times, which just doesn't scream top 100 to me.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Haven't finished my list, but these are the goalies likely to be included in my Top 100:

Tretiak
Hall
Gardiner
Vezina
Brodeur
Dryden
Hasek
Brimsek
Plante
Sawchuk
Roy

After that it goes to Belfour, Parent, Benedict and Broda, who might or might not make it.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Greatness

Some definitions:

[...]

2.

a. Remarkable or outstanding in magnitude, degree, or extent: a great crisis; great anticipation.
b. Of outstanding significance or importance: a great work of art.
c. Chief or principal: the great house on the estate.
d. Superior in quality or character; noble: a great man who dedicated himself to helping others.
e. Powerful; influential: one of the great nations of the West.
f. Eminent; distinguished: a great leader.

3. Informal

a. Very good; first-rate: We had a great time at the dance.
b. Very skillful: She is great at algebra.
c. Enthusiastic: a great lover of music.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/greatness

Greatness is not a clear-cut concept.I feel some players embodied greatness more even if their career was slightly lesser than some other players, and I tend to rank the former higher in close calls.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Haven't finished my list, but these are the goalies likely to be included in my Top 100:

Tretiak
Hall
Gardiner
Vezina
Brodeur
Dryden
Hasek
Brimsek
Plante
Sawchuk
Roy

After that it goes to Belfour, Parent, Benedict and Broda, who might or might not make it.

Besides Gardiner and Vezina, those 9 and Benedict are top-50 on my list. I can’t see any of the big-7 being much more south of 30-35, if only to stay level with comparable contemporaries at other positions.

 

[The Macho King]

Greatness

Some definitions:

[...]

2.

a. Remarkable or outstanding in magnitude, degree, or extent: a great crisis; great anticipation.
b. Of outstanding significance or importance: a great work of art.
c. Chief or principal: the great house on the estate.
d. Superior in quality or character; noble: a great man who dedicated himself to helping others.
e. Powerful; influential: one of the great nations of the West.
f. Eminent; distinguished: a great leader.

3. Informal

a. Very good; first-rate: We had a great time at the dance.
b. Very skillful: She is great at algebra.
c. Enthusiastic: a great lover of music.

greatness

Greatness is not a clear-cut concept.I feel some players embodied greatness more even if their career was slightly lesser than some other players, and I tend to rank the former higher in close calls.

I'm fine with je ne sai qua being a tiebreaker, but it is about as good of a qualifier as a coinflip in that situation in my books.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Besides Gardiner and Vezina, those 9 and Benedict are top-50 on my list. I can’t see any of the big-7 being much more south of 30-35, if only to stay level with comparable contemporaries at other positions.

I'm so ready to argue with you about Vezina v Benedict

 

[quoipourquoi]

I'm so ready to argue with you about Vezina v Benedict

I want to say they sold me on Vezina in 2012 and I’ve slowly reverted to my original position.

How’s the distribution of your 12 goaltenders? Top-heavy with the 7, and then the last 5 scattered?

 

[MXD]

Era gaps, Positionnal gaps : I'm not saying there won't be any (TBH, unless Worters and Lundqvist make your list, you're gonna have a goalie gap...), but the non-repreresentation/underrepresentation of a position in any era should probably raise a few flags.

...Except for the more "modern", because players still carving up their legacy, yada, yada.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Besides Gardiner and Vezina, those 9 and Benedict are top-50 on my list. I can’t see any of the big-7 being much more south of 30-35, if only to stay level with comparable contemporaries at other positions.

I bet your list will be the most generous towards goalies, but we'll see.

 

[MXD]

How’s the distribution of your 12 goaltenders? Top-heavy with the 7, and then the last 5 scattered?

On top of my head -- it's extremely likely there's no goalie whatsoever between 40 and 70. I have a good feeling of where Newsy Lalonde and Sprague Cleghorn are gonna end up, and Vezina has to be a bit lower than that -- with Vezina not being locked in 8th anyways for goalies.

(And THAT is raising a flag)

 

[BenchBrawl]

Double: Looking at my Top 100 sketch, I have 8 goalies in my Top 50, then 3 others in the next 50.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I want to say they sold me on Vezina in 2012 and I’ve slowly reverted to my original position.

How’s the distribution of your 12 goaltenders? Top-heavy with the 7, and then the last 5 scattered?

Not super top heavy, a goalie every 10ish picks and then a small gap and then the last 5

And then of my 12, Benedict and Gardiner are lurking on the edges of 100

 

[quoipourquoi]

Most media lists I see nowadays hit 5 goaltenders in the top-25, another 2 in the top-40 and then they just... die off. They don’t die off on my list. And that’s with having Lalonde and Cleghorn over Vezina still.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Most media lists I see nowadays hit 5 goaltenders in the top-25, another 2 in the top-40 and then they just... die off. They don’t die off on my list. And that’s with having Lalonde and Cleghorn over Vezina still.

I'm willing to add more goalies, but as of right now if my list was up to vote the goalies would appear in the right order every vote or every other. And if we're going to try and argue G v C v D v LW v RW, at least the right goalies will show up in close to the right spots.

I also need to turn to my book collection to help break some of the 06 and earlier multi player deadlocks I have. Pilote v Hall for example even though I might have it backwards right now I'm not 100% sure that isn't right