Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[MXD]

How do posters view Bill Gadsby, Borje Salming, Scott Stevens and Brian Leetch?

I'm not yet there, so, without really thinking about it :

Neither of these players makes it in the first half of the list. I suspect the first three are making it, though I doubt they do so in the first two thirds. Leetch would probably make my Top-200. One of the great playoffs performances of all-time. Otherwise extremely overrated by anyone who had a word to say about the sport.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I don't see how anyone can rate Bossy over Trottier and I love Bossy the player....for the role he filled. The level of importance on that team went Potvin..Trots......Bossy. Trottier's 7 year VsX for example is just marginally (1 damn point) behind Bossy and Trottier was a Selke level defensive center. He's somebody who played 200 feet, was quite physical and could even kill penalties for NY. Trottier was every bit as dynamic in the postseason as well, leading the Islanders/playoffs in scoring twicne, assists twice, goals once and was only behind Bossy in total points by four, 107 to 111.

To many people really do ignore and gloss over the importance that defense plays among F ranks. Offensively those 2 were very close (just different areas of strength). But Bossy provided next to nothing defensively for NY. He wasn't counted on to be a cog in that regard. Trottier was and did.

 

[DannyGallivan]

It's certainly not an indefensible position - and they'll probably be in the same grouping so we can have this debate ad nauseum later on. I think I have them separated by like 6 spots, so it's not like I'm saying Bossy is trash or anything (just want to make that clear).

I think I've mentally re-evaluated Bossy a bit in light of Ovechkin. I think we're going to look back and say that Ovi was the better scorer and more dynamic player, and that was always the "role" I assigned to Bossy in the Islanders group, so since I think he's been supplanted in that role I may have moved him down a bit mentally.


Same although I think I have Leetch right at 100 and Stevens and Salming in the 90s.

Right now, and to be sure there is yet to be more tinkering, I have Leetch 109, Salming 88 and Stevens 76.

 

[MXD]

Let's just say that Trottier's post-prime happened at a WAYYYY TOOOO convenient for me to completely ignore. I have Bossy and Trottier close (but Bossy slightly ahead).

Also something I'll never budge on.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Right - but Trottier has better Hart finishes, actually has an Art Ross, and was close to Bossy offensively while being a much more complete player. I feel that Bossy's legend gets overstated because he retired before he had a downswing to his career. Bossy has better AS finishes but was doing so at a much shallower position than C. Bossy is clearly #3 on that Islanders squad to me, and the gap between him and Potvin is pretty significant (less of a gap between him and Trottier, but still a pretty decent gap).

What-ifs are subject, but I think that Bossy's early retirement hurt his legacy rather than helped it. The only thing standing between him and a 10th consecutive 50-plus goal season (say that aloud for a second and see if it's any easier to comprehend... the guy was a machine) was the injury that cost him his career. Who can say that he doesn't end up with an even dozen consecutive 50-plus goal seasons if that doesn't happen. He had five seasons of over 60 goals (one season of 69). For six consecutive seasons, his worse point total was 117 points (best was 149). 7 out of 10 seasons with well over 100 points, nine of ten seasons with over 90 (would have been 10 out of 10, but again that pesky injury). And I didn't even get into his playoff stats.

Even in the name of balance, I can't ignore production... especially when it is of the goal-scoring variety.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I don't see how anyone can rate Bossy over Trottier and I love Bossy the player....for the role he filled. The level of importance on that team went Potvin..Trots......Bossy. Trottier's 7 year VsX for example is just marginally (1 damn point) behind Bossy and Trottier was a Selke level defensive center. He's somebody who played 200 feet, was quite physical and could even kill penalties for NY. Trottier was every bit as dynamic in the postseason as well, leading the Islanders/playoffs in scoring twicne, assists twice, goals once and was only behind Bossy in total points by four, 107 to 111.

To many people really do ignore and gloss over the importance that defense plays among F ranks. Offensively those 2 were very close (just different areas of strength). But Bossy provided next to nothing defensively for NY. He wasn't counted on to be a cog in that regard. Trottier was and did.

Ya gotta stop stating your case in such absolutes. I'm not comparing Moose Dupont to Eddie Shore. I'm comparing one of the greatest goal scorers in history to one of the best all-round forwards. It's very, very, very easy to make a case for Bossy. Even if a case can also be made for Trottier (and yes, I agree that one can be made), I am extremely comfortable having Bossy a little ahead on my list.

 

[Michael Farkas]

"1.5 points per game" case closed.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Ya gotta stop stating your case in such absolutes. I'm not comparing Moose Dupont to Eddie Shore. I'm comparing one of the greatest goal scorers in history to one of the best all-round forwards. It's very, very, very easy to make a case for Bossy. Even if a case can also be made for Trottier (and yes, I agree that one can be made), I am extremely comfortable having Bossy a little ahead on my list.

I apologize if that's how you (folks) are taking it.

But the fact remains Bossy never had a post prime to worry about being judged on. Look at people who look at his PPG and starting yelling about that stat as if it were the same as somebody who played until they were 38-40. Trottier does and obviously gets "penalized" to some degree by people because post dynasty NY fell off rather quickly. Trotts was a very valuable bottom 6 center for Pittsburgh in the early 90's. Most people don't even touch on his role as a team leader and gritty defensive minded player for a near dynasty there.

Who was Bossy competing with from 1980 to 1985 at RW for AS votes? Who was Trotts going up against at C during that same time period.

The only reason Bossy's AS record is better is specifically because of those 2 questions above. Not a hard concept to grasp IMO.

Bossy played hockey on one side of the rink. He was an incredible goal scorer. One of the 3-5 best of all time in that regard. But hockey is about more than just scoring goals. I don't think that is outlandish or absolute in nature. But his prime offensively ability (overall) was really no better than Trottier (just goals vs a well rounded type), his postseason scoring exploits was really no better and again, he didn't have near the responsibility that Trottier did.

Trots to me is in the 20's somewhere and Bossy in the 30's. FTR.

 

[MXD]

...And Bossy was one of the big reasons why Trottier was as good as he was on the O-side of the rink.

Please don't put people in boxes. You're litterally trying to make @DannyGallivan frame an argument he's never actually making by suggesting that Bossy never having a post-prime explains why he could be considered better than Trottier.

By all means, call people out when they're actually doing so. It's not like we didn't have about 28 examples of the phenomenon in this thread.

 

[The Macho King]

...And Bossy was one of the big reasons why Trottier was as good as he was on the O-side of the rink.

Please don't put people in boxes. You're litterally trying to make @DannyGallivan frame an argument he's never actually making.

He scored 95 points as a rookie before Bossy played a single shift. In Bossy's rookie year Trottier outscored him by 30 points while being a runner-up for the Hart.

Trottier was plenty good on his own.

 

[MXD]

He scored 95 points as a rookie before Bossy played a single shift. In Bossy's rookie year Trottier outscored him by 30 points while being a runner-up for the Hart.

Trottier was plenty good on his own.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's why he's probably ending up in my Top-40. Behind Bossy, but still in my Top-40. Probably. That's.... very good. Around the likes Joe Sakic, Phil Esposito, Brad Park and Charlie Conacher.

PS : It's not my first rodeo.

 

[ImporterExporter]

...And Bossy was one of the big reasons why Trottier was as good as he was on the O-side of the rink.

Please don't put people in boxes. You're litterally trying to make @DannyGallivan frame an argument he's never actually making.

Sigh.....

Yeah, I can say that street is 2 ways my friend. Bossy benefited greatly from Trots too. Hint...a big reason was because Trots defensive accumen allowed Bossy to float and ignore those responsibilities.

I'm not putting anyone in a box. I'm simply disagreeing with a narrow view on evaluating a hockey player. If all people want to do is look at stats on a career that doesn't include a typical post 30 downturn be my guest. Trottier has a much longer career to judge and his peak as a player is every bit as good offensively and was 1000x the player in his own end. Take away Bossy's goal scoring and he has nothing to note. Didn't face much comp at RW either across the league. Take away Trots offensive output and he was still a Selke level defensive player for virtually his entire career. To me that matters.

What I'm saying is based on fact and observation. Nothing more.

You and Danny and everyone else are free to rank people how you see fit. Just as I am free to disagree.

 

[MXD]

Sigh.....

Yeah, I can say that street is 2 ways my friend. Bossy benefited greatly from Trots too. Hint...a big reason was because Trots defensive accumen allowed Bossy to float and ignore those responsibilities.

I'm not putting anyone in a box. I'm simply disagreeing with a narrow view on evaluating a hockey player. If all people want to do is look at stats on a career that doesn't include a typical post 30 downturn be my guest. Trottier has a much longer career to judge and his peak as a player is every bit as good offensively and was 1000x the player in his own end. Take away Bossy's goal scoring and he has nothing to note. Didn't face much comp at RW either across the league. Take away Trots offensive output and he was still a Selke level defensive player for virtually his entire career. To me that matters.

What I'm saying is based on fact and observation. Nothing more.

You and Danny and everyone else are free to rank people how you see fit. Just as I am free to disagree.

Thanks for implying that I'm ignoring reality.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's why he's probably ending up in my Top-40. Behind Bossy, but still in my Top-40. Probably. That's.... very good. Around the likes Joe Sakic, Phil Esposito, Brad Park and Charlie Conacher.

PS : It's not my first rodeo.

That's another thing I'm noticing doing this list. When you say "so and so is number 30, number 50 or even number 100 on the list" you get raised eyebrows. But when you consider that we're going back over 100 years, taking into account Soviets and other players who didn't play much in the NHL, and mixing goalies into the mix, just making the top 120 is amazing. Making the top 50 is even more of an honour.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Sigh.....

Yeah, I can say that street is 2 ways my friend. Bossy benefited greatly from Trots too. Hint...a big reason was because Trots defensive accumen allowed Bossy to float and ignore those responsibilities.

I'm not putting anyone in a box. I'm simply disagreeing with a narrow view on evaluating a hockey player. If all people want to do is look at stats on a career that doesn't include a typical post 30 downturn be my guest. Trottier has a much longer career to judge and his peak as a player is every bit as good offensively and was 1000x the player in his own end. Take away Bossy's goal scoring and he has nothing to note. Didn't face much comp at RW either across the league. Take away Trots offensive output and he was still a Selke level defensive player for virtually his entire career. To me that matters.

What I'm saying is based on fact and observation. Nothing more.

You and Danny and everyone else are free to rank people how you see fit. Just as I am free to disagree.

I fully expect...fully HOPE that there are some wildly divergent placements in everybody's lists. It would be kinda dull if all we had all the players ranked within five places of each other.

I expect a massive outcry when you see how high I've put Blaine Stoughton and Pat Boutette!

 

[The Macho King]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's why he's probably ending up in my Top-40. Behind Bossy, but still in my Top-40. Probably. That's.... very good. Around the likes Joe Sakic, Phil Esposito, Brad Park and Charlie Conacher.

PS : It's not my first rodeo.

I think I have Espo way higher than you do.

I'd like some input on Jiri Holecek. I'm having a tough time placing him. He seems to be routinely placed behind Tretiak in a lot of rankings, but I was wondering how much of that is giving Tretiak bonus points for playing behind the Soviets.

I'm trying to think of where he fits, and having a better idea of where to place him vis a vis Tretiak (assuming Tretiak was better, how *much* better?) would help a lot.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I think I have Espo way higher than you do.

I'd like some input on Jiri Holecek. I'm having a tough time placing him. He seems to be routinely placed behind Tretiak in a lot of rankings, but I was wondering how much of that is giving Tretiak bonus points for playing behind the Soviets.

I'm trying to think of where he fits, and having a better idea of where to place him vis a vis Tretiak (assuming Tretiak was better, how *much* better?) would help a lot.

Likewise. Number 18.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Thanks for implying that I'm ignoring reality.

You're being hyperbolic and prior to that insinuating that I was boxing people in for simply disagreeing with them because how I structured a specific response.

Perception is reality so feel free to rank Bossy above Trots and not budge as you said earlier. I honestly don't care more than simply disagreeing with that position, in large part because I don't look at offensive only wingers who played with elite 2 way C's as highly as others. Unless somebody can prove to me that Bossy was light years better on the offensive side of the rink than BT, I'm finished with this particular disagreement.

 

[MXD]

You're being hyperbolic and prior to that insinuating that I was boxing people in for simply disagreeing with them because how I structured a specific response.

Perception is reality so feel free to rank Bossy above Trots and not budge as you said earlier. I honestly don't care more than simply disagreeing with that position, in large part because I don't look at offensive only wingers who played with elite 2 way C's as highly as others. Unless somebody can prove to me that Bossy was light years better on the offensive side of the rink than BT, I'm finished with this particular disagreement.

• Accusing posters who don't share your views of the history of the sport of deliberately ignoring reality.

 

[ImporterExporter]

To me, Esposito hadn't accomplished much in the NHL (in Chicago) until Orr came along and it was more of the same after Orr finally lost his legs in 75. I don't see him as a top 20 player on that alone. I don't think there is an elite career that was impacted so drastically by playing with the greatest Dman in history. I firmly believe if Orr never played in Boston, players like Esposito would be much futher down all time lists. Like Gretzky (offensively), Orr literally made good players look great and great ones look elite. IMHO.

Granted the Rangers weren't exactly stellar but Espo was mirroed by an older Rod Gilbert when he got there as a scorer. I give him some leeway because he was in his 30's but I certainly don't see much to go on outside of his time running with the greatest hockey player that had ever played to that point.

 

[Nick Hansen]

After ten seasons each, Trottier had played 756 games and scored 1019 pts, while Bossy had played 752 games and scored 1126 pts.

Taken on face value (I know, rarely a good thing), they seem close to each other
with Bossy having a slight edge. I had definitely underrated how proficient Trottier was.

 

[The Macho King]

After ten seasons each, Trottier had played 756 games and scored 1019 pts, while Bossy had played 752 games and scored 1126 pts.

Taken on face value (I know, rarely a good thing), they seem close to each other
with Bossy having a slight edge. I had definitely underrated how proficient Trottier was.

Trottier also came in as a teenager while Bossy came in at 21. Not a huge thing, but I think it does tilt a *little* better toward Trottier with that taken in mind.

Edit: But look - like I said Bossy is defensible and I don't want to keep this pissing match going forever. It basically comes down to roughly equal raw production, their playoffs are pretty equivalent - both have a Smythe a piece - one a better two-way player, one a better goal scorer. They were both necessary cogs to a dynasty. Neither choice is objectively *wrong*.

 

[ImporterExporter]

After ten seasons each, Trottier had played 756 games and scored 1019 pts, while Bossy had played 752 games and scored 1126 pts.

Taken on face value (I know, rarely a good thing), they seem close to each other
with Bossy having a slight edge. I had definitely underrated how proficient Trottier was.

Then factor in Bossy was never tasked with being responsible defensively while Trottier was used as a shutdown C on top of centering the top line and it's even more impressive....to me at least. And Trottier was a Calder winner and better than PPG player before Bossy ever showed up.

I've long looked at the Islanders as Potvin...Trottier...........Bossy. But honestly the depth guys also get overlooked for the Islanders. Goring and Bob Bourne especially at F. Ken Morrow on D.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Big fan of Luongo's, but I have a hard time finding a spot for him in the top 100. Same with Lundqvist. I might be harder on goalies outside the top 10 or 12 than others though. If you consider them, how many of Vachon, Worsley, Esposito, Bower, Smith, Hainsworth, Lehman, Worters, Cheevers need considering as well?

I did some deeper research on goalies last night. Luongo did fare a little better than I initially expected. I ranked about 30 deep on goalies, Luongo and Lundqvist ended up in the mid-20's. Not sure I will get that deep on the goalie list when I compile my 120, but you never know.

Other thoughts on goalies since that's what I was working on last night:

I separated them into where I saw natural gaps. Roy/Hasek in the first, then Plante/Hall/Sawchuk/Brodeur, then I have Dryden and Tretiak side-by-side, and can't see much of a gap between them. Then about 6 pre-war/war-time goalies. That is 14 names, all of which will make the list. Beyond that, it's hard to say. Espo, Belfour and Tiny lead the final cluster, which is about 15 deep.

Keep in mind that prior to 1981, the Vezina trophy was essentially the Jennings trophy. It was given to the goalie who played the most games for the team with the fewest goals against. Still impressive to win, but no context is able to be applied, particularly to the quality of the team in front of them. Makes Plante's 5 straight Vezina's playing for the Habs in the 50'sslightly less impressive, when you consider Glen Hall was voted First-Team all-star ahead of him in 3 of those years. Taking post-season all-star selections, and Hart votes into consideration, Glen Hall has a solid case to jump Plante on the list.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The Isles tight checking system in the 80's seemed geared towards Trottier's game...is there any feeling that Bossy was held back a bit (while still being super elite at goal scoring, of course) by Al Arbour's system a la Mike Modano under Hitchcock...?