Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Dennis Bonvie]

- + / - ranking means absolutely nothing and is one of the worst stats ever to use. The Penguins could put Crosby-Malkin-Kessel all on one line and tear up the NHL. We would also lose in the first round in the playoffs every year by doing so.

Coaches have used the plus/minus as a tool long before it became an official stat. Players and coaches still mention it often today, perhaps more so than ever before.

What does a line of Crosby-Malkin-Kessel have to do with plus/minus? Wouldn't it have more to do with points (your only concern)? Lots and lots of points, but as you said, you would lose in the first round every year.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Right. Because you say so.

The plus/minus statistic includes all even strength goals, all goals with either goaltender pulled , and short handed goals.


-The most useless stat in sports. So basically, you could be a player put on the ice in the last 10 seconds of a game, be sleeping on the ice while your teammate scores an emtpy netter while you lay on the ground watching, and get a +1. Great stat right there

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Coaches have used the plus/minus as a tool long before it became an official stat. Players and coaches still mention it often today, perhaps more so than ever before.

What does a line of Crosby-Malkin-Kessel have to do with plus/minus? Wouldn't it have more to do with points (your only concern)? Lots and lots of points, but as you said, you would lose in the first round every year.

-Because that line would outscore any other line in the NHL with ease. Because that line destroys teams on the powerplay. But those players play on 3 different lines for the most part.

 

[Canadiens1958]

When 4 teams in a 6 team league make it, and one of those teams is the Blackhawks at their nadir, is that really all that impressive? 66% of the league make it - there are bound to be random outliers getting a 4 seed every now and then. That logic is backwards in today's game when only 50% of the league makes it, especially when there is such a massive gap in the scoring between the two teams.

Voting was in 1951 reflecting contemporary standards, not today.

 

[Canadiens1958]

- + / - ranking means absolutely nothing and is one of the worst stats ever to use. The Penguins could put Crosby-Malkin-Kessel all on one line and tear up the NHL. We would also lose in the first round in the playoffs every year by doing so.

Best stat going if used properly.

 

[The Macho King]

Voting was in 1951 reflecting contemporary standards, not today.

Impressive non-answer.

Boston improved like 6 points from the year before. It's not like a Taylor Hall situation where the entire team turned around. A bad vote can be a bad vote in 1950 or in 2018.

 

[Sentinel]

The plus/minus statistic includes all even strength goals, all goals with either goaltender pulled , and short handed goals.

-The most useless stat in sports. So basically, you could be a player put on the ice in the last 10 seconds of a game, be sleeping on the ice while your teammate scores an emtpy netter while you lay on the ground watching, and get a +1. Great stat right there

These things average out. This statistic is widely used. If you have a problem with it, don't use it. Your shock value is wearing off.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Speaking of Howe - Explain 50-51's Hart voting to me? Howe outscores the 2nd highest scorer by 20 points, wins the Art Ross and the (Retro) Rocket, his team leads the league in points, and somehow he's tied for third in Hart voting (with Red Kelly), behind Milt Schmidt (who was tied for 4th in points and 25 behind Howe) and Richard (who was second in goals and points - goals by 1 and points by 20). Also somehow Howe was 1st All-Star while Richard was 2nd All-Star. Boston also finished almost 40 points behind Detroit.

Was he penalized for playing on a stacked team (with Kelly and Sawchuk)? I don't see how he doesn't win the Hart there - seems like a funky award. Maybe Schmidt and Richard were just more comfortable votes rather than a 22 year old?

Edit: Meant to post this in the "Howe in the Big 4 Thread". My b.

The Hart trophy was actually voted on as most valuable to their team until more recent times.

Consider 1974-75.

Bobby Orr had 135 points, 46 goals. He was 6th in goals scored. Won the Art Ross by 8 points over his teammate, Esposito. Oh, and he was +80. As a defenseman. Came in 3rd for the Hart.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The plus/minus statistic includes all even strength goals, all goals with either goaltender pulled , and short handed goals.


-The most useless stat in sports. So basically, you could be a player put on the ice in the last 10 seconds of a game, be sleeping on the ice while your teammate scores an emtpy netter while you lay on the ground watching, and get a +1. Great stat right there

Or, in the same situation, your teammate hits you in the butt while you sleep and it goes in. You get a goal. And he gets an assist.

Great stats, those goals and assists.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Best stat going if used properly.

-Find me a GM and post a link showing they use + / - as the best stat in the NHL. Is this how Montreal drafts players? From their + / - rating?

 

[quoipourquoi]

32. Malkin
42. Forsberg

Seems about right. I have Forsberg about four or five higher. Too good for too long and I think last time he was held against Jari Kurri which just seems weird for someone being called the best player in hockey off-and-on for ten years.

Bossy-range.

 

[The Macho King]

The Hart trophy was actually voted on as most valuable to their team until more recent times.

Consider 1974-75.

Bobby Orr had 135 points, 46 goals. He was 6th in goals scored. Won the Art Ross by 8 points over his teammate, Esposito. Oh, and he was +80. As a defenseman. Came in 3rd for the Hart.

I mean, that's a bad Hart vote too. I still think the worse one is probably 73 with Clarke winning the Hart over Espo (who had him by like 28 points?). I just don't buy the "it used to be most valuable to his team" argument, because again, how is having the best player in the league rolling over the rest of the league by huge numbers and leading his team to a top seed in the playoffs not valuable to his team? It feels like it creeps up at random times, but it doesn't seem like it was ever a consistent criteria.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Impressive non-answer.

Boston improved like 6 points from the year before. It's not like a Taylor Hall situation where the entire team turned around. A bad vote can be a bad vote in 1950 or in 2018.

And allowed 31 fewer goals with a second year goalie, Jack Gelineau.

If the voters realized in 1951 that the 2018 NHL would feature 31 team perhaps they would have voted accordingly.

 

[Michael Farkas]

No one drafts using public stats at all...

Most coaches at lower levels, where stats are not tracked automatically, track plus/minus over all others.

Used by people who understand what it represents and the context of the game. Far from flawless, but I have yet to meet a flawless stat, but when I got started coaching and asked around about what to do, what to track...plus/minus was the most common answer...

Now I do adjusted plus/minus to account for players doing an exemplary job or, conversely, a poor job...very valuable, at the end of the year, it reads just about exactly how the rest of the staff felt the players performed on the year...requires video and understanding of what's happening...

 

[Canadiens1958]

-Find me a GM and post a link showing they use + / - as the best stat in the NHL. Is this how Montreal drafts players? From their + / - rating?

+/- is not available from all NHL Entry Draft feeder leagues.

From the days of Dick Irvin Sr. Thru Bowman and beyond Canadiens' coacheshave relied on the stat.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yup, was the "advanced stat" du jour before being made public in the late 60s...

 

[Canadiens1958]

No one drafts using public stats at all...

Most coaches at lower levels, where stats are not tracked automatically, track plus/minus over all others.

Used by people who understand what it represents and the context of the game. Far from flawless, but I have yet to meet a flawless stat, but when I got started coaching and asked around about what to do, what to track...plus/minus was the most common answer...

Now I do adjusted plus/minus to account for players doing an exemplary job or, conversely, a poor job...very valuable, at the end of the year, it reads just about exactly how the rest of the staff felt the players performed on the year...requires video and understanding of what's happening...

Adjusted or weighed to game plan going in and responsibilities given players.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I mean, that's a bad Hart vote too. I still think the worse one is probably 73 with Clarke winning the Hart over Espo (who had him by like 28 points?). I just don't buy the "it used to be most valuable to his team" argument, because again, how is having the best player in the league rolling over the rest of the league by huge numbers and leading his team to a top seed in the playoffs not valuable to his team? It feels like it creeps up at random times, but it doesn't seem like it was ever a consistent criteria.

While on the subject of plus/minus, Clarke was +32 and Espo +17. Seven teammates had a higher +/- than Espo (Orr was +55). Clarke's +/- was the best on the Flyers. He was the best PK man in the league and perhaps the best on faceoffs too. Those are huge attributes for a team that lives in the penalty box like those Philly teams.

 

[The Macho King]

While on the subject of plus/minus, Clarke was +32 and Espo +17. Seven teammates had a higher +/- than Espo (Orr was +55). Clarke's +/- was the best on the Flyers. He was the best PK man in the league and perhaps the best on faceoffs too. Those are huge attributes for a team that lives in the penalty box like those Philly teams.

I get that Clarke had that going for him, and I'm sure Espo was vote-splitting with Orr quite a bit.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

+/- is not available from all NHL Entry Draft feeder leagues.

From the days of Dick Irvin Sr. Thru Bowman and beyond Canadiens' coacheshave relied on the stat.

-Does Montreal trade players in todays league based off + / - ?

-Reading this board Phil Kessel is an AHL player that wouldnt make Montreal's AHL team this year even when Montreal is arguably the worst team in the NHL entering this season. With Kessel having a career (-67) in the + / - category, the Habs would laugh at the notion of Kessel even being a role AHL player for them.

-Thank God for Jim Rutherford who thinks differently and doesnt use a + / - stat, only wins cups with players that outscore the other team with the best offense in the league

-Phil Kessel isnt good enough for Montreal and Toronto (obviously). Im going to head back to the other board now and thank the Leafs for the reject player with a -67 rating they gave to us

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

-Find me a GM and post a link showing they use + / - as the best stat in the NHL. Is this how Montreal drafts players? From their + / - rating?

I don't think you can draft players who are already in the NHL.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

-Does Montreal trade players in todays league based off + / - ?

-Reading this board Phil Kessel is an AHL player that wouldnt make Montreal's AHL team this year even when Montreal is arguably the worst team in the NHL entering this season. With Kessel having a career (-67) in the + / - category, the Habs would laugh at the notion of Kessel even being a role AHL player for them.

-Thank God for Jim Rutherford who thinks differently and doesnt use a + / - stat, only wins cups with players that outscore the other team with the best offense in the league

-Phil Kessel isnt good enough for Montreal and Toronto (obviously). Im going to head back to the other board now and thank the Leafs for the reject player with a -67 rating they gave to us

Phil Kessel is a +23 in the playoffs.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I mean, that's a bad Hart vote too. I still think the worse one is probably 73 with Clarke winning the Hart over Espo (who had him by like 28 points?). I just don't buy the "it used to be most valuable to his team" argument, because again, how is having the best player in the league rolling over the rest of the league by huge numbers and leading his team to a top seed in the playoffs not valuable to his team? It feels like it creeps up at random times, but it doesn't seem like it was ever a consistent criteria.

Worth noting that the voters awarded Esposito the 1st Team selection by a significant margin (double the voting points?). I wouldn’t necessarily call it a “bad” Hart vote though, but I also wouldn’t necessarily take it to mean Clarke was better than Esposito that year because the Hart swung in his favor.

I think it depends on the year (has it happened more recently than Roy over Theodore?), but I think awards voting was more loose prior to the post-WHA era. I think it’s loosening up again now though, since we’ve been seeing career-based narratives from the media for several award decisions.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Phil Kessel is a +23 in the playoffs.

-You know what is ironic to me? Milan Lucic is +33, and the Oilers absolutely hate him and want him traded off the books for his contract. But we might be on to something here. Maybe teams from Canada and GM's from Canada use the + / - stat as the be all tell all stat? Im not sure.... But the way Kessel was treated and dumped, and Lucic, perhaps we are on to something why a team from Canada hasn't won a cup in 25+ years or rarely even competed for a Cup.


-I lived through this in football. The Pittsburgh Steelers are the best franchise in NFL history. We had a stubborn coach named Bill Cowher that would only run the ball and refused to pass, 1950 mentality thinking ability. He changed his stubbornness in 2005 and decided to pass and won the Championship. He only wasted 15 years trying to figure it out, but at least he did.


-Maybe, just Maybe, Toronto wants to be like the Penguins. They got a guy named John Tavares, a (-42) in plus minus and a -5 career in the playoffs. Horrible, just horrible career plus minus stats. But this time, Toronto wants this negative player? An Elite offensive player like Tavares but with terrible + / - stats. Something tells me the Leafs will horsewhip the Atlantic conference in the future with their Elite Centers.

 

[ResilientBeast]

-Does Montreal trade players in todays league based off + / - ?

-Reading this board Phil Kessel is an AHL player that wouldnt make Montreal's AHL team this year even when Montreal is arguably the worst team in the NHL entering this season. With Kessel having a career (-67) in the + / - category, the Habs would laugh at the notion of Kessel even being a role AHL player for them.

-Thank God for Jim Rutherford who thinks differently and doesnt use a + / - stat, only wins cups with players that outscore the other team with the best offense in the league

-Phil Kessel isnt good enough for Montreal and Toronto (obviously). Im going to head back to the other board now and thank the Leafs for the reject player with a -67 rating they gave to us

-You know what is ironic to me? Milan Lucic is +33, and the Oilers absolutely hate him and want him traded off the books for his contract. But we might be on to something here. Maybe teams from Canada and GM's from Canada use the + / - stat as the be all tell all stat? Im not sure.... But the way Kessel was treated and dumped, and Lucic, perhaps we are on to something why a team from Canada hasn't won a cup in 25+ years or rarely even competed for a Cup.


-I lived through this in football. The Pittsburgh Steelers are the best franchise in NFL history. We had a stubborn coach named Bill Cowher that would only run the ball and refused to pass, 1950 mentality thinking ability. He changed his stubbornness in 2005 and decided to pass and won the Championship. He only wasted 15 years trying to figure it out, but at least he did.


-Maybe, just Maybe, Toronto wants to be like the Penguins. They got a guy names John Tavares, a (-42) in plus minus and a -5 career in the playoffs. Horrible, just horrible career plus minus stats. But this time, Toronto wants this negative player? An Elite offensive player like Tavares but with terrible + / - stats. Something tells me the Leafs will horsewhip the Atlantic conference in the future with their Elite Centers.

I thought you said you were leaving?

Also FTR I really don't like +/-