Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[MXD]

-Does Montreal trade players in todays league based off + / - ?

-Reading this board Phil Kessel is an AHL player that wouldnt make Montreal's AHL team this year even when Montreal is arguably the worst team in the NHL entering this season. With Kessel having a career (-67) in the + / - category, the Habs would laugh at the notion of Kessel even being a role AHL player for them.

-Thank God for Jim Rutherford who thinks differently and doesnt use a + / - stat, only wins cups with players that outscore the other team with the best offense in the league

-Phil Kessel isnt good enough for Montreal and Toronto (obviously). Im going to head back to the other board now and thank the Leafs for the reject player with a -67 rating they gave to us

... How the duck is that in any way relevant to our purposes?

 

[Canadiens1958]

I thought you said you were leaving?

Also FTR I really don't like +/-

Not surprising. Understanding it would help.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

... How the duck is that in any way relevant to our purposes?

-Because we are talking about the value of statistics to rate players.

 

[MXD]

-Because we are talking about the value of statistics to rate players.

You were talking about the value of +/- for the Montreal Canadiens and the Toronto Maple Leafs, and I don't think @Canadiens1958 has any kind decisionnal power with either or any of these teams.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Not surprising. Understanding it would help.

"A player is awarded a "plus" each time he is on the ice when his Club scores an even-strength or shorthanded goal. He receives a "minus" if he is on the ice for an even-strength or shorthanded goal scored by the opposing Club. The difference in these numbers is considered the player's "plus-minus" statistic."

Such a complicated statistic, are you this smug when not on this forum?

 

[The Macho King]

Worth noting that the voters awarded Esposito the 1st Team selection by a significant margin (double the voting points?). I wouldn’t necessarily call it a “bad” Hart vote though, but I also wouldn’t necessarily take it to mean Clarke was better than Esposito that year because the Hart swung in his favor.

I think it depends on the year (has it happened more recently than Roy over Theodore?), but I think awards voting was more loose prior to the post-WHA era. I think it’s loosening up again now though, since we’ve been seeing career-based narratives from the media for several award decisions.

I think the justifications at the time seem defensible, but nearly always seem silly in hindsight. The whole "to his team" argument always makes me want to ask - would X player have been able to produce as well as the player who was most valuable "to his team" in the same position? Gretzky scoring 212 points is more valuable than someone scoring 120 points and getting the 8th seed no matter what (extreme example but the logic holds). I can understand drawing a line at the MVP needing to *make* the playoffs (see McDavid this season), but outside of that, it should always go to the best player in the league in a given season.

But this is getting way off track.

 

[Canadiens1958]

"A player is awarded a "plus" each time he is on the ice when his Club scores an even-strength or shorthanded goal. He receives a "minus" if he is on the ice for an even-strength or shorthanded goal scored by the opposing Club. The difference in these numbers is considered the player's "plus-minus" statistic."

Such a complicated statistic, are you this smug when not on this forum?

Components listed but not the inner workings. Pre-school stuff as opposed to post-graduate knowledge.

Only with the overtly pretentious.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Components listed but not the inner workings. Pre-school stuff as opposed to post-graduate knowledge.

Only with the overtly pretentious.

Case and point

Bolded is a little ironic

 

[Michael Farkas]

All right, all right...let's just all count to 10 here...

Same team.


Question for the group that likely won't be answered: Do we think there is access to film from pre-1950s hockey that exists that isn't already on YouTube...? If so, where? I've never been to a library in Canada before because I don't live there and when I travel, I don't go to libraries...do y'all know of any library with an archive with film? As your average, uncultured American, I assume that your libraries are filled with old pond hockey tapes, coins that are worth more than 25 cents, and maple syrup...convince me otherwise!

 

[Sentinel]

Seems about right. I have Forsberg about four or five higher. Too good for too long and I think last time he was held against Jari Kurri which just seems weird for someone being called the best player in hockey off-and-on for ten years.

Bossy-range.

46. Kurri. Love him.
22. Bossi. Love him even more.

 

[Canadiens1958]

All right, all right...let's just all count to 10 here...

Same team.


Question for the group that likely won't be answered: Do we think there is access to film from pre-1950s hockey that exists that isn't already on YouTube...? If so, where? I've never been to a library in Canada before because I don't live there and when I travel, I don't go to libraries...do y'all know of any library with an archive with film? As your average, uncultured American, I assume that your libraries are filled with old pond hockey tapes, coins that are worth more than 25 cents, and maple syrup...convince me otherwise!

There are certain back channels with videos that could be appropriate. YouTube recently posted 1952 SC Finals individual game snippets that are fairly revealing.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Big fan of Luongo's, but I have a hard time finding a spot for him in the top 100. Same with Lundqvist. I might be harder on goalies outside the top 10 or 12 than others though. If you consider them, how many of Vachon, Worsley, Esposito, Bower, Smith, Hainsworth, Lehman, Worters, Cheevers need considering as well?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

-So we get a fair comparison and age is taken out of the equation. All players get compared from when they started until 31 years old. It doesnt get any more fair then that. There is no goal post moving with that. Every player is on an equal playing field.

All players in the project get evaluated based on their entire career. I really have no clue where you're going with this, but based on what I've seen so far, I don't believe a coherent explanation will be forthcoming.

 

[Doctor No]

-The most useless stat in sports. So basically, you could be a player put on the ice in the last 10 seconds of a game, be sleeping on the ice while your teammate scores an emtpy netter while you lay on the ground watching, and get a +1. Great stat right there

Goals are the most useless stat in sports. So basically, you could be a player put on the ice in the last 10 seconds of a game, be sleeping on the ice when a puck hits you in the butt, the other team could pass it around for 5 seconds and then into their own empty net while you lay on the ground watching, and you get a goal. Great stat right there.

 

[Captain Bowie]

When will the NHL address the epidemic of players sleeping on the ice! It's embarrassing!

 

[DannyGallivan]

46. Kurri. Love him.
22. Bossi. Love him even more.

I currently have Bossy at 23, so we're close (his teammate Potvin is 22 on my list). Kurri is back at 79.

 

[Michael Farkas]

If you care to share Danny, if you have Potvin and Bossy back to back there...where is Trottier relative to them...?

 

[The Macho King]

I currently have Bossy at 23, so we're close (his teammate Potvin is 22 on my list). Kurri is back at 79.

Yikes. That strikes me as very kind to Bossy. I'm also curious as to where you place Trottier.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Yikes. That strikes me as very kind to Bossy. I'm also curious as to where you place Trottier.

Trottier is currently 30th on my list, between Larry Robinson and Steve Yzerman. Of the "big three" Islanders, I consider Potvin the best. Bossy's other-wordly scoring exploits cannot be denied, so I have him high up. Trottier's overall game and production puts him in the top 30. Plus, we need to remember that both Trottier and Bossy played a large part of their careers in the shadow of Gretzky.

 

[MXD]

Or, in the same situation, your teammate hits you in the butt while you sleep and it goes in. You get a goal. And he gets an assist.

Great stats, those goals and assists.

And the "you" in question in your post is litterally buthurt.
Which works on just about every level.

(Plz mods leave this one here despite the obvious circumvention...)

 

[The Macho King]

Trottier is currently 30th on my list, between Larry Robinson and Steve Yzerman. Of the "big three" Islanders, I consider Potvin the best. Bossy's other-wordly scoring exploits cannot be denied, so I have him high up. Trottier's overall game and production puts him in the top 30. Plus, we need to remember that both Trottier and Bossy played a large part of their careers in the shadow of Gretzky.

Right - but Trottier has better Hart finishes, actually has an Art Ross, and was close to Bossy offensively while being a much more complete player. I feel that Bossy's legend gets overstated because he retired before he had a downswing to his career. Bossy has better AS finishes but was doing so at a much shallower position than C. Bossy is clearly #3 on that Islanders squad to me, and the gap between him and Potvin is pretty significant (less of a gap between him and Trottier, but still a pretty decent gap).

 

[Canadiens1958]

How do participants view Bill Gadsby, Borje Salming, Scott Stevens and Brian Leetch?

 

[DannyGallivan]

Right - but Trottier has better Hart finishes, actually has an Art Ross, and was close to Bossy offensively while being a much more complete player. I feel that Bossy's legend gets overstated because he retired before he had a downswing to his career. Bossy has better AS finishes but was doing so at a much shallower position than C. Bossy is clearly #3 on that Islanders squad to me, and the gap between him and Potvin is pretty significant (less of a gap between him and Trottier, but still a pretty decent gap).

I've seen all three of those players named as the best Islander of all time. I can't ignore just how great a finisher Bossy was, and his legacy would be so much greater if he wasn't overshadowed by a skinny space alien from Brantford. I'll have to stand by my decision.

 

[DannyGallivan]

How do participants view Bill Gadsby, Borje Salming, Scott Stevens and Brian Leetch?

Gatsby was never really in consideration on my list. The other three are on it.

 

[The Macho King]

I've seen all three of those players named as the best Islander of all time. I can't ignore just how great a finisher Bossy was, and his legacy would be so much greater if he wasn't overshadowed by a skinny space alien from Brantford. I'll have to stand by my decision.

It's certainly not an indefensible position - and they'll probably be in the same grouping so we can have this debate ad nauseum later on. I think I have them separated by like 6 spots, so it's not like I'm saying Bossy is trash or anything (just want to make that clear).

I think I've mentally re-evaluated Bossy a bit in light of Ovechkin. I think we're going to look back and say that Ovi was the better scorer and more dynamic player, and that was always the "role" I assigned to Bossy in the Islanders group, so since I think he's been supplanted in that role I may have moved him down a bit mentally.

Gatsby was never really in consideration on my list. The other three are on it.

Same although I think I have Leetch right at 100 and Stevens and Salming in the 90s.