Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (The Sequel)

[Canadiens1958]

Where is Roy Worters in everyone's minds?

Borderline.

 

[Doctor No]

Where is Roy Worters in everyone's minds?

I have Worters 19th among goaltenders, for what it's worth.

 

[Vanzig]

(1) - GRETZKY
(10) - SAWCHUCK
(20) - D. POTVIN
(30) - BOSSY
(40) - STASTNY
(50) - MIDDLETON

 

[bobholly39]

Even as a Pens diehard, I think Ovechkin has Sid edged out in terms of regular season accolades (AS voting on its face doesn't do much for me given the very weak state of LW in the league over the past 10-12 years). It's very hard to ignore the Rockets, even if I think the Caps and 8 have often sold out late in years to boost the overall goal scoring totals. Obviously Sid would almost surely have another 2 Hart's/AR's/1st team AS if not for freak/cheap shots but this isn't the what if section. I give Ovi the edge in the regular season. But I do think we need to give at least some attention to the fact Sid is sort of mirroring his idol, Stevie Yzerman, in terms of late 20's/early 30's change of play (ie, sacrificing offense for a more well rounded posture, which one can see with 87's three straight top 10's in Selke voting).

Where Sid blows Ovechkin out of the water is postseason (yeah, even with 8 finally getting his 1st) and the international stage.

Sid is already 10th all time in points in the playoffs (185 in 160). By the age of 30. Ovi is 65th. Sid is 8th all time in PPG with Ovi in 37th. And Sid's played a lot more games which naturally is almost always going to bring a players numbers down.

He's got a pair of Smythe's (yes the first was one of the weaker ones in history) and a couple of other very good runs to his name. Led the postseason in goals, assists (twice) and points once.

Plus head to head, Crosby is 3-1 against Ovi. Both have been quite good in those 4 series, on the whole, to be fair.

And obviously Sid's play for Canada is well documented. One of the all time great moments with the golden goal at the 2010 Olympics, on Canadian soil. Captained the team to gold in 2014. Captained gold at the 2015 WC's and gold again at the 2016 WCOH, taking home leading scorer/MVP honors. Also overlooked was his performance at the 2006 WC's, being only 18 years old, he was on the AS team, named best forward, and led all scorers.

I was very impressed with Ovi's play in the postseason for the first time in a while this past go around. While not quite 2008-2010 Ovi, he was just engaged so much more and consistently so. Obviously paid off in a big way. While I do think Kuznetsov was the absolute best player as the tourney went on (22 assists, 32 points and +12), credit is due to AO. Guy finally earned a Cup and even this Pens fan had to applaud his effort. Also, side note, was generally happy for Holtby who's always been really good for the Caps in the postseason and bailed their asses out when Grubs had them in an early hole in round 1.

Not to get into a whole crosby vs ovi debate here - but i think you might be underselling Crosby in your first paragraph.

One of the main reasons Crosby will likely end up ranked high in this project is his regular season dominance/consistency.

Through 13 seasons he has arguably a top 4 consistently elite prime/career in the nhl. Gretzky Bourque Howe and Crosby in some top 4 order - and Crosby #1 is possible. Not as "best" but at being consistently the best among league since day 1/18 years old with almost no down years. Hes a bit short on trophies/accolades maybe but for level of play hes up there

 

[bobholly39]

I have no doubts he'll be on a few lists.

But even in a case like Lindros who had a rather abbreviated career, EL has well over 700 games played to his name. There is a lot more to go on. McDavid has barely topped 200 games. 209 to be exact. The ONLY way i'd consider him with that little time is if he had dominated the league on a Orr/Gretzky/Howe/Lemieux level AND did something of note in the postseason at least once. Since neither of those has happened, he's not worthy of being brought up with guys who have 700+ games to their name. Some well north of 1000.

Just my humble opinion of course.

Pretty much what i said
Look at the post right above yours. Martin St Louis at 105. He also has 2 art ross and are they really that much weaker than McDavids? Maybe a bit but not much. 2 ross alone doesnt move the needle much with the competition for many guys at ~100 when they have all that longevity to boot

 

[Canadiens1958]

Often overlooked.

Sweeney Schriner, first Russian/Soviet born player to win two scoring titles, also a member of two SC championship teams.

Leader amongst contemporaries in OT, GWG and first goals:

NHL.com - Stats

 

[Batis]

Starshinov is a questionable choice, and I'm sure not many people have him in their lists. However, he was the best player in the Soviet championships in the 1960s, rivaling Firsov. Firsov was better internationally, Starshinov domestically. Starshinov is one of the best Soviet goalscorers, he was a leader (lead Spartak to three championships), and was quite adequate defensively.
404 goals in 510 league games is pretty amazing.

Was Starshinov really better domestically though? When it comes to goalscoring sure but as soon as we also add the very stingely awarded assist data we see that Firsov moves ahead of Starshinov and in all likelyhood that advantage would only have grown even more had assists been awarded more often in the Soviet League of the 60's. Here are Firsovs and Starshinovs Vs2 numbers with assists included over the 60/61-69/70 time frame.

Firsov:
138, 100, 100, 94, 92, 83, 70
Total: 677
7-season average: 96.7

Starshinov:
110, 108, 100, 87, 85, 84, 80
Total: 654
7-season average: 93.4

As earlier mentioned Firsov had one of his 7 strongest Vs2 scores in 72/73 so when including that here Firsovs 7-year average is 98.5 compared to Starshinovs 93.4.

With this said my appreciation for Starshinov has certainly risen over the last couple of years since the Non-NHL European project in part due to this bio https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/128183317/ which shows that Starshinov was considered a very strong player defensively and in part after doing the Soviet penalty killing study which reinforced what I had read in that bio and showed me that Starshinov without a doubt was a top-10 Soviet penalty killing forward of all time. Here is the Starshinov post from that project.

3. Vyacheslav Starshinov
Ice time finishes: 1st at the 1968 WOG, Tied for 1st at the 1970 WHC, 2nd at the 1967 WHC, 3rd at the 1969 WHC, Tied for 5th at the 1964 WOG, 6th at the 1972 Summit Series
Overall stats: 0 goals forward and 2 goals against over 24 min, 59 sec, -1 every 12 min, 30 sec

Vyacheslav Starshinov was along with Anatoly Firsov the greatest Soviet penalty killing forward of the second half of the 60's. He formed a great forward pairing with Boris Mayorov during the 60's and while both players excelled at penalty killing Starshinov was still clearly the leader of the pairing. Then at the 1970 WHC Starshinov played with Maltsev and showed that he still was a force to be reckoned with by leading that tournament in shorthanded ice time.

Starshinov had a work ethic that I have not seen in many players which combined with his strenght and determination made him capable of winning so many important battles. While Starshinovs penalty killing mainly was built on outworking and outmuscling his opponents he could also play keep-away with puck at an high level which of course pretty much was a must before the 1969 rule change. I would not say that his puck possession was on the level of Firsov, Loktev or Almetov though. But all in all I would say that he was one of the most all-around penalty killers that the Soviets ever had. Starshinov was also absolutely brilliant while killing penalties 3 on 5.

And even if Starshinov clearly was out of his prime during the 1972 Summit Series he still showed some strong penalty killing in the one game he played in. So Starshinov seems to have had very strong longevity as a penalty killer as well. In many ways I feel like Starshinov could rank ahead of both Almetov and Loktev on this list but the way those two seems to have totally dominated the Soviet penalty killing in the first half of the 60's puts them slightly ahead for me. But ask me again tomorrow and I may have changed my mind. It really is that close in my opinion.



Starshinov has a great 3 on 5 shift against Sweden at the 1968 Olympics where he manages to both run into "Honken" Holmqvist early on and then later make a great defensive play to break up a Swedish attack.



Here Starshinov does a great job killing off some time on a 3 on 4 against West Germany at the 1968 Olympics. After Firsov has come on to the ice to make it a 4 on 5 the puck possession exhibition continues. Yes the opposition is definitely subpar here but still some impressive puck skills from the Soviet team.



A strong shift from Starshinov against Canada during the 1972 Summit Series. First Starshinov intercepts a pass from Mikita and gives Kharlamov a chance to counterattack and then he stays on the ice and also kills off some time on the penalty with Mishakov later in the shift.

Starshinov also have a very strong Soviet player of the year voting record considering that he was 27 years old during the first season that it was awarded. To demonstrate this here is how Starshinov did in the Soviet player of the year voting in the years leading up to the Summit Series.

To weigh in on the Starshinov discussion I would like to add that during some of the years leading up to the Summit Series Starshinov did in my opinion show that he could hold his ground very well against the new generation of Soviet players. Both in 1969 and 1970 Starshinov finished 3rd in the Soviet player of the year voting while competing with all of the new stars for example.

For what its worth here is the top 5 among forwards when it comes to Soviet player of the year voting shares during the 5 seasons leading up to the Summit Series (67/68-71/72).

1. Anatoli Firsov: 209,2
2. Alexander Maltsev: 160,5
3. Valeri Kharlamov: 142,8
4. Vyacheslav Starshinov: 132,0
5. (Undrafted player): 77,2

Other notable forwards.

Alexander Yakushev 23,9
Boris Mikhailov: 20,7
Vladimir Petrov: 2,5

Now the new generation of Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Petrov, Maltsev and Yakushev did not really start to hit their stride until the 68/69 season but on the other hand Starshinov was clearly out of his prime at the time of the 71/72 season. So to make it more of a head to head comparison lets only look at the 68/69-70/71 time frame.

1. Anatoli Firsov: 110,3
2. Alexander Maltsev: 88,3
3. Vyacheslav Starshinov: 77,1
4. Valeri Kharlamov: 70,6
5. (Undrafted player): 57.8

Boris Mikhailov: 20.7
Alexander Yakushev: 13,3
Vladimir Petrov: 2,5

Just to be clear I am not saying that I think that Starshinov is greater than any of Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Petrov, Maltsev and Yakushev but I personally think that it is clear that Starshinov during the 68/69-70/71 time frame showed that he could compete with the new generation of Soviet forwards.​

Note: The undrafted player is Vladimir Vikulov.

​

 

[Iceman]

Why? Both conclusions.

What forwards are Datsyuk better than that are already surefires?

Two forwards that will probably make my top 100 but at the tail end are MSL and Iginla, whom both are firmly ahead of Datsyuk. While Datsyuk is probably worst among those three in the playoffs, none of them has a considerable playoff record that stacks up in an all time sense. Schriner (as you mentioned yourself above) also gets the nod over Datsyuk and also falls into that group of unspectactular playoff record. MSL is without a doubt best among that group on all accounts. MSL has 2 good runs + some decent scraps, Iginla has 1, Schriner has 1, Datsyuk has 1 but was rarely put in any important role in the playoffs (Zetterberg was favoured in those cases).

 

[Sentinel]

What forwards are Datsyuk better than that are already surefires?

Two forwards that will probably make my top 100 but at the tail end are MSL and Iginla, whom both are firmly ahead of Datsyuk. While Datsyuk is probably worst among those three in the playoffs, none of them has a considerable playoff record that stacks up in an all time sense. Schriner (as you mentioned yourself above) also gets the nod over Datsyuk and also falls into that group of unspectactular playoff record. MSL is without a doubt best among that group on all accounts. MSL has 2 good runs + some decent scraps, Iginla has 1, Schriner has 1, Datsyuk has 1 but was rarely put in any important role in the playoffs (Zetterberg was favoured in those cases).

This is a total misrepresentation of Datsyuk. Sure, his first few playoffs are nothing to write home about, but starting from 2007, he's been terrific. Oddly enough, his best overall playoffs were 2010 and 2011, when the Wings were bounced in the 2nd round. He was far and away the best player on those deteriorating teams. It's not even his 1.2 PPG, but about his overall 200 ft game. It was nothing short of fabulous.

I have him way ahead of St. Louis and Iginla.

 

[Canadiens1958]

General questions.

How do we value the first goal of the game and a players ability to score the such goals?

First goal dictates the game strategy to a great extent.

Are OT goals in the RS comparable to OT goals in the playoffs? Shootout goals not included.

 

[Batis]

The two-way play of Vladimir Martinec have been mentioned a couple of times so far and I thought that it would be good to make a post about this subject.

First some quotes about it.

I´ll start with Miloslav Charouzd´s overview of basic types of forwards that you could mostly find in the League at the time, some descriptions may be interesting or useful to know. The first article bears the title: DOES THE IDEAL TYPE OF FORWARD EXIST?
View attachment 130809

‚Defender‘ is usually a good skater, as he covers comparatively large space in offensive and defensive zones. The player is usually well-built physically, has an advantage in continuous control of the puck, at the same time he acts as an ‚forward-playing antenna‘ of active defense of the team. Outstanding representatives of this type of forward – Jiří Holík and Martinec – have almost even ratio of goals scored and assists and their collective and responsible style of play for the team needs to be highly appreaciated. Ševčík can calmly be measured with these players when it comes to work in defense. However today, we have started to require big effort, immediate counter-attacking skills even from a player securing defense in order for him to get into the scoring areas by himself or to selflessly create the shooting positions for his teammates.

But when you watch old CSSR games from the 1970s, you see Martinec on the penalty kill A LOT, surely he was among the most used forwards. As for his other defensive play, I haven't found much written on it (and maybe I wouldn't emphasize it too much), but there is at least this mention in the Finnish sports book Talviurheilun Sankarit (the section on hockey was written by Jyrki Laelma):

Jyrki Laelma
"The most important thing is that Martinec's work capacity is unbelievable - even a simpleton can see that he is always able to carry the puck over the blue line, but his defensive contribution is never understood," said a journalist from Pardubice in Düsseldorf.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum; his defensive contribution is never understood in the ATD either

Here is my favourite defensive play from Martinec, in game 2 of the 1976 CC final:
1976 Canada Cup Final Canada Vs Czechoslovakia Game #2
Espo and Pete Mahovlich on a breakaway; now surely that's a goal without Martinec's brilliant effort.

Focusing specifically on Martinec penalty killing here are some of my posts on that subject.

Martinec shorthanded ice time finishes:
WHC 1970: -
WHC 1972: 3rd
Post Summit Series 1972: 3rd
WOG 1976: 2nd
Canada Cup 1976*: Tied for 2nd
WHC 1977: 1st
WHC 1978: 1st
WHC 1979: 3rd
WOG 1980: - (Got injured before the first shorthanded shift in the available game)
WHC 1981: Tied for 4th

One thing worth noting is that from the majority of these tournaments we only have 1 or 2 available games which means that it is far from certain that the shorthanded ice time numbers perfectly mirrors what happened the whole tournament. This was a problem in the Soviet study as well but far less so than in the Czechoslovakian study since there are far less available games with Czechoslovakia. One example of this problem is that I personally believe that Martinec likely led the 1979 WHC in shorthanded ice time over the whole tournament but since he was in the box during 1 of the 4 boxplays in the available game he ended up 3rd in shorthanded ice time just 5 seconds behind the leaders. So I personally make mental adjustments between the shorthanded ice time finishes and the eye-test when I rank the players.

It is clear that Martinec was a outstanding penalty killer as evident by him being top 3 in shorthanded ice time during every available tournament between 1972 and 1979. That is some truly great consistency right there. With that said I don't think that he quite measures up to the Holík/Makarov level of penalty killing even if he definitely belongs near the top.

* Since the video quality from first part of the USSR-CSSR game at the 1976 Canada Cup makes it impossible to estimate the ice times I have only included the shifts from the second half of that game. From that tournament we also fortunately have 3 full games against Canada.

And as a comparison here are the ice time finishes of the in my opinion greatest Czechoslovakian penalty killing forward Jiri Holik.

Jiří Holík definitely belongs in the top group of international PK greats as well no matter if they belong in the top tier or the next tier below. In fact I would say that Holík is the greatest Czechoslovakian penalty killer and also has a strong case for being the greatest penalty killer from the Eastern Bloc. In that categorie I would say that Makarov is his main competition for the top spot. Here below are Holiks shorthanded ice time finishes from the available tournaments.

WHC 1967: 1st
WOG 1968: -
WHC 1969: 2nd
WHC 1970: 1st
WHC 1972: 1st
Post Summit Series 1972: 5th
WOG 1976: 1st
Canada Cup 1976*: 1st
WHC 1977: 5th

It is also worth noticing that his 2nd place finish at the 1969 WHC was a performance every bit as strong or perhaps even stronger than many of his 1st place finishes since Holík and 1st placed Ševčík (along with Suchý) completely carried the Czechoslovakian penalty kill during that tournament and both of them had far more than twice as much shorthanded ice time as the 3rd placed forward Jaroslav Holík. Considering that Jiří Holík did so well both during the 1967-1972 and 1976-1977 time frames it seems reasonable to assume that he also did well in 1973-1975. It seems likely that he did reasonably well in 1964-1966 as well. Add all of this together and it is likely that Holíks longevity as a top notch penalty killer surpassed that of any Soviet PK great. Even without speculating about the 1964-1966 time frame the time frame during which Holík was one of very greatest Czechoslovakian penalty killers compares very well to that of any of the Soviet greats as evident by his first 1st place finish coming in 1967 and his last in 1976.

Now I personally don't think that Holík peaked quite as high as Makarov and Krutov did in the mid-late 80's (unless he had such a peak in 1973-1975) but that his combination of a still very high peak and incredible longevity as a top notch penalty killer gives him a strong case for being the greatest penalty killer from the Eastern Bloc. The main argument against Holík could perhaps be that it is possible that the competition among Czechoslovakian penalty killing forwards was on a somewhat lower level than among Soviet forwards. Even if this would be true Holík still definitely belongs very near the top of the greatest penalty killers from the Eastern Bloc.

As mentioned in these posts I would not rank Martinec quite on the Makarov/Holik level of penalty killing but he does belong near the top and may very well be top-5 or at the very least top-10 when it comes to penalty killing among forwards from the Eastern Bloc.

Here below you have some examples of Martinec penalty killing against very strong opponents (Best-on-Best Team Canada and the Soviet National Team)

Here Martinec again shows his ability to force the puck out of his own zone while shorthanded. Against Canada in 1976.



Strong shorthanded shift from Martinec and Holik against Canada in 1976 again.



Great shorthanded shift from Martinec against Canada at the 1976 Canada Cup. Yes Bobby Hull gets a clear scoring chance early on but the rest of the shift Czechoslovakia shows some very strong penalty killing.

 

[Batis]

Here is another strong shift from Martinec by the way where he steals the puck and almost scores a shorthanded goal against the Soviets at the 1978 WHC.



While Martinec took many faceoffs when playing on the penalty kill he had some struggles there against strong competition so if you are planning on using him on the penalty kill I would probably put him with a player who is strong on faceoffs. Martinec was brilliant when it comes to clearing the puck out of his own zone though and very calm and collected when he had the puck on his stick. Here is another example of this. Although on the Bobby Orr rush which results in a goal both Martinec and his teammates could have done better.



And here is another example of strong penalty killing from Martinec against the Soviets at the 1977 WHC.

 

[Iceman]

This is a total misrepresentation of Datsyuk. Sure, his first few playoffs are nothing to write home about, but starting from 2007, he's been terrific. Oddly enough, his best overall playoffs were 2010 and 2011, when the Wings were bounced in the 2nd round. He was far and away the best player on those deteriorating teams. It's not even his 1.2 PPG, but about his overall 200 ft game. It was nothing short of fabulous.

I have him way ahead of St. Louis and Iginla.

Ahead of a Hart winner and 2-time Art Ross winner? Gotcha.

 

[Sentinel]

Ahead of a Hart winner and 2-time Art Ross winner? Gotcha.

Datsyuk could've won the Hart in 2009 (3rd in points + Selke), if not for the two of the strongest post-lockout Hart nominees, Ovechkin and Malkin. But, of course, I also value creativity and uniqueness, and, by God, there hasn't been a more creative and unique player since Lemieux.

 

[Canadiens1958]

One of the main reasons Crosby will likely end up ranked high in this project is his regular season dominance/consistency.

Through 13 seasons he has arguably a top 4 consistently elite prime/career in the nhl. Gretzky Bourque Howe and Crosby in some top 4 order - and Crosby #1 is possible. Not as "best" but at being consistently the best among league since day 1/18 years old with almost no down years. Hes a bit short on trophies/accolades maybe but for level of play hes up there

Bolded is far from a given. Playoffs define Crosby's dominance / consistency.

RS
NHL.com - Stats

NHL.com - Stats

PO
NHL.com - Stats

NHL.com - Stats

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Often overlooked.

Sweeney Schriner, first Russian/Soviet born player to win two scoring titles, also a member of two SC championship teams.

Leader amongst contemporaries in OT, GWG and first goals:

NHL.com - Stats

He didn’t make my list, but I considered him. Unless I’m missing someone obvious there are only three players in history with two (or more) scoring titles in their first three seasons - Schriner, Gretzky, and McDavid.

 

[MXD]

Hot take on Schriner : Was made to look better than he actually was due to playing for a bad team.

 

[MXD]

So who doesn't have Malkin in their top 50? And why not? I'll fight you right now.

I don't, but he's really not that very far from the mark.

 

[MXD]

Does anyone have Tom Johnson up for consideration? He broke up Harvey's streak of Norris victories, but all and all, he was a very solid 2 way defensemen.

I probably won't be able to find room for Emile Bouchard so I won't be able to find room for Tom Johnson. The thought never occurred to me that he could make it, and he's probably been passed by someone like Shea Weber at this point (and I'm pretty certain no one is considering Weber a viable candidate).

 

[Canadiens1958]

He didn’t make my list, but I considered him. Unless I’m missing someone obvious there are only three players in history with two (or more) scoring titles in their first three seasons - Schriner, Gretzky, and McDavid.

Ironically, like Max Bentley in 1947, was traded in an orchard for apples deal to to the Leafs soon after leading the NHL in scoring twice.

Like Bentley, impacted by the Leafs rolling an extra line, never lead the NHL in scoring again.

 

[MXD]

Has anyone thought of putting Doug Harvey above Maurice Richard?

I haven't thought about having them the other way around since a very long time.

 

[MXD]

It doesn't make sense to me, but lists shouldn't be rejected due to individual rankings that don't make sense. Lists should only be rejected based on systematic bias (for or against a certain team or era) or carelessness (omitting multiple players that everyone else has on their lists without good explanation).

The argument here would be that Bill Cook is somewhere between the 3rd and 6th best skater between WWI and WW2, with two or three netminders having a claim at being better than him during that era. TBH you'd be extremely severe to rank him 6th/9th with goalies (that is, behind Shore, Morenz, Clancy, Conacher, F. Boucher; also Gardiner and Benedict) but whatever. Along with a few players who did play at the same time as Cook without being players of that era per se, like Lalonde, Taylor, Cleghorn, Vezina, Nighbor.

I guess its arguable. But I can't see how you can have Cook and someone like Morenz some 50 ranks apart.

Now, can you really accept a list with Morenz and Shore barely making the top-50? Because that's kind of what needs to be done to rank Cook that low.

FWIW I had Cook very close to King Clancy and ahead of everyone named in this post but Morenz, Shore and probably Nighbor (they weren't mental benchmarks one for the other so I don't quite remember what I did here.

Also, everyone named here except Cleghorn and Vezina made the Top-50. But that's literally 1/3 of hockey history too.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The argument here would be that Bill Cook is somewhere between the 3rd and 6th best skater between WWI and WW2, with two or three netminders having a claim at being better than him during that era. TBH you'd be extremely severe to rank him 6th/9th with goalies (that is, behind Shore, Morenz, Clancy, Conacher, F. Boucher; also Gardiner and Benedict) but whatever. Along with a few players who did play at the same time as Cook without being players of that era per se, like Lalonde, Taylor, Cleghorn, Vezina, Nighbor.

I guess its arguable. But I can't see how you can have Cook and someone like Morenz some 50 ranks apart.

Now, can you really accept a list with Morenz and Shore barely making the top-50? Because that's kind of what needs to be done to rank Cook that low.

FWIW I had Cook very close to King Clancy and ahead of everyone named in this post but Morenz, Shore and probably Nighbor (they weren't mental benchmarks one for the other so I don't quite remember what I did here.

Also, everyone named here except Cleghorn and Vezina made the Top-50. But that's literally 1/3 of hockey history too.

Last project about 10 years ago. New data, discussions, players.

Attrition rate and the usual churn should be towards 25 % without considering movement within the 100.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Datsyuk could've won the Hart in 2009 (3rd in points + Selke), if not for the two of the strongest post-lockout Hart nominees, Ovechkin and Malkin. But, of course, I also value creativity and uniqueness, and, by God, there hasn't been a more creative and unique player since Lemieux.

To expand on the Datsyuk vs Iginla vs MSL.

One also has to remember we're talking about one of the all time great 2 way C's vs an offensive only W (Iginla) and a good but not great 2 way W (MSL).

Consider using VsX to get a rough estimate on their offensive production:

7 year peak

MSL = 92.4
Iginla = 86.7
Datsyuk = 82.5

Obviously MSL produces a decent amount more offense than Iginla and an even wider gap vs PD.

Look at adjusted even strength +/- from all players 1960-present day

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/17171784/

Datsyuk = 19th all time
Iginla = 68th
MSL = 98th

Datsyuk's real value comes from his elite ability defensively. His offense, while not elite, certainly doesn't fall so far below those 2. I see a much wider gap in defensive ability and usage from PD to the other 2, especially Iginla.

I have Iginla as the clear 3rd place player of the 3. His playoff record is the weakest, easily. IMO. And I actually put PD just over MSL in that regard, although it's rather negligible.

Plus the only reason MSL won the Art Ross in 2012-13 is because Crosby took a freak slap shot (Orpik) off the face and missed the final month of the season. It literally took the field until the final week of the regular season to catch Sid and pass him (not by much either). Between that and the season being cut in half I don't really hold that particular Art Ross (or Ovi's Hart) in the same light as most other full seasons.

To me there simply isn't a big enough offensive gap by the W's to make up the difference in elite defensive ability that Datsyuk brings to a team. His even strength brilliance there is hard to ignore.

I just finished my 100 and actually don't have any of them in it. Datsyuk barely missed (just behind Fedorov and Gilmour who were at the tail end). I likely own't have Iginla in the 101-120 range either. MSL most likely will be there though.

 

[steve141]

I just finished my 100 and actually don't have any of them in it. Datsyuk barely missed (just behind Fedorov and Gilmour who were at the tail end). I likely own't have Iginla in the 101-120 range either. MSL most likely will be there though.

I agree. I have St Louis at 105 currently, but neither Datsyuk or Iginla made it. I definitely had Datsyuk over Iginla though.

Datsyuk might have had some bad playoffs at the start of his career, but like Sentinel said he was incredible in the 2010-2011 playoffs. I don't remember if it was 2010 or 2011 where I thought he was the best overall player in the playoffs, despite his team not going anywhere.